Have a look at the Outhole switch

Thanks “HowardR”. One your also helping me on another post I believe (double barrel). So thanks for your time and knowledge

I’d never even thought to check those. And yes it was very close if not closed. So adjusted open and I’m still getting same thing. And not knowing if
You meant the one as the ball drains or the one at the plunger (which is a normally closed switch so made sure it was ). I checked both. Still same

But it opened my eyes to other possible switches?

I do notice the outhole and ball index relays staying stuck in once the process starts. Hmm

It runs thru the full sequence and match at the end. And it’s alwyas around 2,200 - 2,400 points total.

I can start it by the play button on the coin door or activating the coin relay , the credit relay or the reset relay in the cabinet.

The Ball Index relay should let go when the Outhole relay activates.

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It all goes fast but looks like both of those pull in at the same time and hold. And it looks like as it’s going into the 2nd ball?

I have no idea what you're asking here.

Lol. I’m sorry i wish I could send a video of the relays. But as the diagram showed the ball index relay should be open once the outhole relay closes. But it actually closes milliseconds after the outhole relay closes. And they both stay closed thu end of game (10 seconds later )

It just constantly runs thru. Won’t stop.

I also per the diagram checked the the tilt relay does stay open
Just trying to give as much info as possible to get it back running

It has been perfect for almost a year. No issues. Then it started adding points when a flipper would be activated. Then it started this.

Sorry for the low knowledge. (Same as on the double barrel. ) I can get so far but these things stop me cold.

The Ball Index relay can be energized by the 10, 100, or 1000 Point relay or the Tilt relay. Once energized, a switch on the Outhole relay and a switch on the Motor should release it, unless one (or more) of the 4 switches are keeping it energized. Make sure those 6 switches are working correctly.

For a switch to work 3 things are necessary
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)
2) When closing, the long blade's contact point should push the short blade's contact point enough to move the short blade
3) The contact points should be clean, which they usually will be if #2 is happening

Pinball (resized).png

You da man!

https://ia800700.us.archive.org/10/items/hokuspocusmanual/Hokus_Pocus_Manual.pdf

Found this link from "Otaku", which is helping somewhat...even the "Sequence of Operation" is helpful. (for a newbie)

Your help Howard is amazing, thank you sir!

"6B SCM" - I'm taking it, from your notes and 1A of the S of Op (Page 3), this is the #6 Score Motor? Pardon the ineptness - where is this switch, and what does the "B" designate? Is this the long "thingy" with the rotating round plates with nodules on each plate? (Is #1 the closest to the coin door? Is "B" the bottom section...I'm guessing here) Sorry for all the dang questions..ugh

In reading S of Op Page 4, 1.B.d - I do see what you told me - the Outhole Relay should de-energize the Ball Index relay....so I will look at the switches noted in your last comment and report back

Again -can't thank you enough..I'm getting there!

Here's the score motor. As we can see from the Motor Sequence Chart on the schematic, cam 11 has 6 bumps per 1/2 revolution. Count back from there to cam 6. B probably means it's the 2nd switch from the bottom, but check wire colors to be sure.

Pinball (resized).png

Pinball (resized).png

Back on this one as I’m taking a little breather on the Double Barrel. (Couldn’t stop once I got started there).

But I’ve checked the 6BSCM and it’s matching the schematics I’m fact 5 of those 6 do. But I’m not sure if the Tilt Relay. This shows it should be open ? See photo below of both the outhole and the tilt relays

image (resized).jpg

image (resized).jpg

It just seems that the motor drum runs continuous until games over as if something is stuck closed.

And you were right HowardR the B is the second switch from the bottom. On the 6BSCM designation. (Per page “A” in the schematic section of the manual)

These score motors scare me. This type or the old gotlieb style like my Hot Shot. Just too many things I can mess up. Lol

image (resized).jpg

Then concentrate on the other switches I pointed to above.

Checked those as well the 10, 100, 1000 point relays all open. The 6BSCM as shown is per schematics (closed but opens when activated ) . Outhole and tilt relays as shown in the photos Both of these are in the open position (as in not pulled in) but the first switches on them looked closed Are those correct ?

If the Ball Index relay is staying energized when it shouldn't, then something is keeping it that way. What's doing that?

And it seems as though it’s happening right at the start of the 2nd ball. As soon as the outhole activates the ball index pulls in. (Although there isn’t a ball in it, I took it out. it just goes thru the paces on its own)

I’ve put a piece of paper between the swtich contacts on the actual outhole switch. Even held it in hoping it would stop. But nothing. It just keeps rolling thru till ball 5.

I’m actually sitting in the Denver airport right now (love your state !). Heading to Cali for a work assignment but will be back on this by Saturday.

Just hoping it’s some really small item. Closed switch. Etc. for it to go from “ the always working machine “. to just start throwing points with the flippers then this, got to be??? Lol

Finally back home! And back with my babies (my granddaughters and pinball machines!). Lol

I had to jump on this one first. Thinking it may be easier. Ha!

I do notice I can hold the Ball Index Relay open and the game continues scoring and the Outhole relay stays in as in activated. So that is keeping the Ball index going.

Now to figure out why the Outhole Relay pulls in and stays. With no ball on the surface ? I’ve attached a photo of that switch. It’s open. I’ve even put a piece of paper between the blades while this happens. So there can’t be contact (unless somehow thru the small screws holding it together?)

I’ve also attached a photo of the other relays in the schematic to show they too are open.

Am I just not seeing something here?

image (resized).jpg

image (resized).jpg

Further checking I can hold the Outhole relay from pulling in and the game also continues scoring until I hit replay or close the Outhole relay manually. Then it goes back to finshing the 5 balls

Reading more from the manual on squemce of operation. (Pages 3 & 4) and photos attached

1B.a. This says the Bonus Score Relay is energized when a ball drops. When this machine goes thru this 5 ball self game issue - that relay does NOT move. At all. The bonus unit does. But not that relay.

1.B.d. Last line. When the outhole relay pulls in (energizes) - the Ball index does as well. And they both stay pulled in until ball 5

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CE45CB6C-EA49-41E0-B70C-A79077C4C16A (resized).jpeg

Well, almost 2 weeks past since my latest update on this one, so thought I'd reach back out. (Was able to get some of my other games going though, so I wasn't a sloth here! 6 out of 7 working now! )

When I stated this in my last posting:
"1.B.d. Last line. When the outhole relay pulls in (energizes) - the Ball index does as well. And they both stay pulled in until ball 5"

I do notice, the Ball Index Relay does very slightly move (quickly) at each ball end/start of the new one, so it does not "stay pulled in" as I said above.

On a good note, I contacted the person I purchased this one from (to get some help) and he has the exact same game, but actually better condition, and for a "small fee", he will trade me out, and I'll get the newer/working game. Actually I'd pay the small difference just for the better machine, but having this issue go away is icing on the cake.....BUT - I hate it when a game stumps me...so I was going to try to fix it before I take her back.

So if there are any ideas out there, mainly to save my own feeling of inadequacies in PB repair, please send away! lol

Back on tis one as the original seller has sold his other Hokus Pokus, so this is one I need to fix. I want to keep her, as it was my first actual PB machine

So I guess I'll "bump" here as the thread is quite extensive, any and all help is greatly appreciated!

Hi Nikrox2
before we use meters / Jumper-Wires / Testlights - please do this simple test: Locate the Extraball-Relay in Your pin (probably in the cabinet) - Start a game - make some points --- press the armature of the Extraball-Relay it must stay pulling - does it in Your pin ? then loose the ball - the Outhole-Relay does pull-in and the motor runs - trur in Your pin ? And the big question: Does the Extraball-Relay still pulls - Yes or No ?
If "Yes" (see the JPG) we must investigate in "my red B" switch and in "my red C" switch.
If "No" then my red B and red C are good - cutting the Self-Hold-Circuitry on Extraball-Relay works - most likely also on Tilt-Relay - should also work on Ball-Index-Relay. BUT Your Ball-Index-Relay does constantly (faulty) pulls. we look further on the Ball-Index-Relay.

Please write about the result on the Extraball-Relay test. Greetings Rolf

0Hokus-Pokus-Work-03 (resized).jpg

Thanks Rolf! Printed this out to try to work on this tonight. As it just started throwing points whenever I'd hit a flipper (either one), then literally the next day, this issue started, I'm hoping it's a simple switch/relay issue. With "HowardR"'s help I've verified the 10, 100 and 1000 point relays are open, the Outhole switch is open, but as soon as I hit the replay button - the game starts, runs thru 5 balls and scores itself 2,200 points - all with no ball in the game, and me touching nothing...all on it's own..

It does this all in about 10 seconds...I can & will check the Extra Ball relay and manually activate it and report back.

(Still working on my 1961 Double Barrel as well, just took a short break on it while I finish up a few other minor things I had planned. This HP, a couple of Flipper rebuilds, etc, so hoping to get back on that one this weekend. I would love to finally have all my games 100% working - at the same time..lol)

Ok. I start the game (with ball out). The extra ball relay isn’t automatically pulled in. The game runs thru the balls and adds some points on its own (usually 500 per ball, 200 last ball) if I manually pull the extra ball relay in, it does stay pulled in - the game continues running without stopping - and the light comes on in the head that reads “same player shoots again”. I have to manually push it back open - then it resumes until the 5th ball and ends

Here is a photo of your Red switch B Outhole relay. And the actual switch

I’ll try to take some of each shown on the schematic marked up

image (resized).jpg

image (resized).jpg

image (resized).jpg

Hi Nikrox2
post-76/-77 - You start a game - the pin rushes through the balls --- do You then get "Game-Over" or does the motor runs and runs ?

Hmm - I was (now) looking through the gallery of pictures to eventually find a JPG (schematics) I can use --- hmm, HowardR shows in post-59 exactly the switches I wanted to "circle-in" in my post-75 ...
Lets be rude - lets say "The Ball-Index-Relay is needed PULLING after (starting / resetting / kicking out the first ball / playing the first ball) loosing the first ball, not before". Lets be rude and cut / unsolder the short wire W-BR that runs from "one side of the Coil (Ball-Index-Relay)" to "switch mounted (on the Ball-Index-Relay)". Unsolder the wire away from the solder-lug on the coil - or simply cut this short wire (K-Mart and such stores sell plugs (automotive department, car electrics) - we can mount these on a wire by squeezing the housing of the plug. Please make it impossible for the Ball-Index-Relay to pull-in (by unsoldering or cutting) - then toggle-on, start a game - what is the pin doing ? Greetings Rolf

Yes. After the 5th ball it does go to game
Over.

I will cut the one leg on that wire for that relay and see what that does. I’ll report back

With that wire de-soldered - the game continues to run and add points. Until I shut it off. And it stays on ball 1.

image (resized).jpg

Hi Nikrox2
please toggle-off the pin, take the ball out, lift the playfield. Step the Score-Drums to "all zero" - then step a good, resetting Score-Drum of Player-1 to "7". Step the Bonus-Unit to "2". Toggle-on - then with a finger close the Outhole-Switch, press the start button, look into the cabinet --- do You hear the Score-Drum reset, the Bonus-Unit reset --- do You see the Outhole-Relay pull-in and the motor turning ? AA - The Outhole-Kicker kicks at Your finger - take the finger away (so the Outhole-Switch opens) - the Bonus-Unit steps up a step - Outhole-Relay quits pulling.
BB - The Bonus-Unit steps up a step - the Outhole-Kicker kicks at Your finger - take the finger away (so the Outhole-Switch opens) - Outhole-Relay quits pulling.
After the "AA or BB" the motor stops and the stuff on the playfield scores points - flippers and bumpers and slingshots work ?
Please give a bit more detailled description (than in post-81). Greetings Rolf

Getting ready to start all of this Rolf! Wish me luck. Lol. I have to ask - how do you even come up with these ideas to check things ? I’ll post back soon. Thanks !!!

Well that wasn’t too bad once I started.

All of that above I’ve done and is “true”. Except the “Outhole relay “ never quits pulling in. Until i power off

I’ve resoldered that wire back on the Ball Index Relay. (Let me know if I should leave that off).

I tried all of the above with it disconnected. Then reconnected. Same results. Just with it soldered it runs thru 5 imaginary balls and stops. With it off it stays on ball one and doesn’t stop

As more detail. When the game goes thru the 5 ball sequence. The outhole kicker activates each time. Whether I’m Holding down the switch or not.

I also notice each time right before the outhole kicker activates the relay on the coin door also activates. If that helps at all?

Rolf - another observation, I can manually keep the Outhole relay from activating. The ball index of course does not advance so it continues running and scoring on ball 1 until I release it.

Hi Nikrox2
for about a full day I was staring at a place in the Gottlieb Royal Flush schematics, brooding --- I guess I have solved my "problem of understanding".

Please unsolder again the wire away from the Coil on Ball-Index-Relay - we are chasing problems in the start-up procedure.

The "Relay" on the Coin-Door is not a relay - the stuff is called "Coin-Lockout-Coil" should be named "STOP-Coin-Lockout-Coil". Per definition a relay has one or more switch(es) to handle current to flow - this Coil on the Coin-Door has no switch --- with a rod it actuates "thrown-in coins are acceptet (Coil is pulling) --- thrown-in coins are reflected to the coin return compartement (Coil is non-pulling)". Whenever the Score-Motor is running for other features: A thrown-in coin can not step-up the Replay-Counter so the Coin-Lockout-Coil is made non-pulling is "coins will be reflected". A motor-1B switch does this.

post-82 and post-84: In Your pin the Outhole-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling forever ? What is the Bonus-Score-Relay doing when the Outhole-Relay faulty stays pulling forever - Bonus-Score-Relay constantly pulling ? or not pulling ? There is Sw-B on Score-Motor-Cam-8 most of the times closed - but when the switchstack on cam-8 is actuated: Sw-B must open. Please only look - can You see if it does open ? See here http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair#Bally_Score_Motor - the bakelite cam closest to the real motor is cam-1. Then come cam-2, -3 etc.

On Player-1 You get faulty added points and points --- multiple of 1000 or multiple of 100 or multiple of 10 ? Greetings Rolf

Bonus score relay does not pull in. At all

The faulty points are 100’s. Five per each first 4 balls. Then two on the last

And yes score motor switch 8b looks closed normally and seems to open when the score motor runs

image (resized).jpg

With the Ball Index relay disconnected again the game continues to run. Score motor rolls. Each rotation gives 5 - 100 point scores and the Bonus Unit rotates once. But the Bonus Score Relay does pull in as it resets the score reels. Then it releases and stays out (sorry didn’t notice that earlier post)

image (resized).jpg

The 500 and Bonus Advance Relay also pulls in and stays in until shut off or I manually advance. Just trying to use your schematic

A7B166AC-3F9F-4FBB-B464-D9F17273F067 (resized).jpeg

Tracing back further on the schematic and just to be sure here is a close up on 6BSCM. (Post #62 “HowardR” got me to that point as well Thanks again Howard).

But it’s closed (normallly, in the off cog position) and opens when the motor rotates into position Is this correct?

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I have a fully working Hokus Pokus if you need me to check on something. Be glad to do it.

Hi Nikrox2
is it just a "typo" - post-93 mentioned 6BSCM - may I read 8BSCM ? SCM-8B is closed most of the time. It must open when the turning motor actuates the switchstack on cam-8. Not only look at the long blades and the nice gap --- also look where the wires are soldered-on, studs with soldered-on wire - one of the studs bent so making faulty contact through the studs ?

I do not like to read in post-92 "500 and advance Relay" pulls-in and stays pulling. See the JPG, red dots --- everything that can make this relay to pull-in. See here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1206&picno=14594 some places are shown. Maybe You must look all over the playfield - checking every place where You can make 500 points and an added bonus. But wait - FIRST check the "Self-Hold-Switch on this Relay": A short wire runs from one side of the coil of the 500 and add bonus Relay --- runs to "Switch mounted on the relay" - THIS is also "red dot" - maybe we are lucky and THIS switch is faulty always closed ( also look for bent stud as well as a drop of solder fallen there or a doghair crap of wire). Greetings Rolf

0Hokus-Pokus-Work-04 (resized).jpg

Yes I checked both 6 & 8 SCM. I’ll look at those connections as suggested. But quick once over they look good on the score motor connections

And nope the swtich you referred to is open. See attached. (I think this is the one ?)

image (resized).jpg

Hi Nikrox2
thanks for the picture of the relay --- the Self-Hold-Switch looks good. So You must inspect the playfield - look for a stuck switch - did You change rubbers on the playfield ? Not beeing very careful doing the change: We can accidentally bend a blade. Also: New rubbers may be a bit thicker than the old ones - enough to close a tight switch.
May want to try to start a new game with "playfield not connected" - does the fault goes away ?
The reason for me to ask You to FIRST inspect the Self-Hold-Switch on the relay: It is very frustrating to search on the playfield for hours - looking for an stuck switch - and in the end it turns out to be the Self-Hold-Switch - therefore FIRST I look at the Self-Hold-Switch - if no luck then sigh - looking at the many playfield switches ... Greetings Rolf
P.S. Again - Europe is some 6,7 to 10 hours ahead (in time) to the USA - I will soon go to sleep

When I unplug these in the lower cabinet and I hit the replay button it resets to zero and ball one and stops

Taking it this means it is in the playfield then?

I’ve gone over each and every swtich at least 4 times. Checking the wiring and connections as I go.

Could there be a short in one of these switch stacks? Like through the mounting screw?

image (resized).jpg

Thanks for the offer from the sunshine state! Rolf and HowardR have been helping me tremendously. I just can’t find a stuck switch on this thing. Lol.

We’ve gone thru just about the full schematic I think.

Rolf is amazing (he’s helped me on a few now)