Between the wishful thinkers and the negative Nancys, it will come between now and never.
Between the wishful thinkers and the negative Nancys, it will come between now and never.
Why exactly do you feel entitled to tell others to STFU? I, too, am interested in this game and its release. I'm not your wife, so don't tell me to STFU.
The release date is critical because I have an open location where the owner is wanting this pin and doesn't want a WOZ because the theme is SO FUCKING LAME! So the release date not only impacts my income, but also my capital plans and cash flows. So what I'm saying to be clear is you should be the one STFU'ing.
Quoted from beelzeboob:
Sorry. I just don't see it. I don't have any interest in WWE, so I don't crap on threads or Stern about it. Don't care when the LE comes out. Just. Don't. Care.
At this point, people have seen what is probably the production model. Do you like it? Great. Get one. Don't like it? Don't get one. Feel free to criticize what you didn't like about it, but STFU about when the game is going to be released because it's clearly none of your concern.
"2- Parts are arriving daily and some are being rejected for QC issues even though they were made "correctly""
This is a giant red flag. No time has been saved by the "measure 3 time, cut once" theory. Especially after admitting that JJP ate the bad parts on WOZ.
"1- We are actually verifying with each Vendor that they can make First Article Parts - that is a sample of the actual part that we need that matches a PO and a latest revision drawing. Now some of the Vendors have issues with this as they just want to "Run" 1000+ of something - when some of them did that with WOZ - the parts were wrong, costing us tens of thousands of dollars and many weeks of delay and rework….not doing it this time - we are taking longer to measure three times and cut once."
Does this mean that they are actually paying engineers to create buildable specifications? Or is JJP trying to find vendors that will do their engineering for the sake of getting the production runs? I have no idea what goes on at JJP, but when the customer eats the cost of errant part runs, that suggests in-house engineering failures.
I can understand why vendors don't want to do one-offs. It really doesn't provide any value when the production process is completely different than the first article prototypes (when there is a lack of engineering). After all, high quality engineering specifications results in parts that are independent of process and shifts the liability of non-conformance to the vendor. Admittedly this was not the case for WOZ.
I'm guessing it's a cash flow problem.
Quoted from mountaingamer:
I'm guessing Jacks making sure the parts work and fit right.
At least my guess is based on rumor and evidence. What's your's based on? Wishful thinking and the words of a proven liar?
I have nothing against Jack, but he has repeatedly been proven to be a liar and that is one description he will never shake. But don't worry. He's in good company.
I'm not a JJP troll. I'm glad and thankful for WOZ, but certainly you can't say that Jack was making "honest" mistakes while stringing along his pre-buyer investors. But some people prefer to be lied to and believe whatever makes them feel good. If that's you, good on 'ya. Me? I prefer truth... not the middle truth as we recently heard another confirmed liar say, but simply the truth.
But you're not the first one to dislike my comments. I was piled on in the Skit-B threads when I called out that deadbeat and the same was true for J-Pop. In both those cases it took several months for all the true believers to join my camp.... but join, they did.
There is a reason the smartest guys in the room are hated. And look how people in this very thread are saying it's fine to be lied to if it strengthens JJP. Battered spouse syndrome much?
Liars lie when the truth would serve. I've known many successful people that lie so often they don't even know they are doing it. They are welcome to do it.. just as I am welcome to call them out for doing it.
Quoted from PinPatch:
RE JJP eating the costs of a thousand faulty items.
I am guessing a fair amount of parts are from China. I have learnt once you pay they don't give a shit.
Has happened to me with a substantial order, sample was great, shipped product was land fill. No recourse.
JJP should have a contact in China to inspect orders before they are shipped/ paid for.
Would you expect any different when dealing with amoral Commies? Anyone who gets in bed with those butchers deserves to be reamed. When I buy trash off aliexpress or ebay from China, I expect to throw it in the garbage. There is a reason the USA has lost its critical manufacturing base: It's because greedy business owners will accept trash built by child slaves to save a nickel. You reap what you sow. Globalists suck!
Quoted from spfxted:
I think you're an a$$hole....but I have nothing against you...
Look how people still like you after you cost them thousands by lying as Kevin's unknowing agent.
I admire your child-like nature of seeing things in black and white dichotomies.
Quoted from deeproot:
This is a viable business plan. If you can't afford to produce the machines you've already taken money in for, then you use your profit off selling a lesser model to fund production of the higher model CoGS. While this would work in the short-term, there would have to be a significant amount of lesser models sold in order to reach equilibrium of covering the 'short sale' of the unfunded models. But in the end it is typically a losing strategy because even at equilibrium there wouldn't be any capital to progress the business. Less than equilibrium the business plan fails with failure to deliver. More than equilibrium would require a substantial demand and limited supply. The question is... Is JJP using this strategy with WoZ to fund the initial run of presold Hobbits, and whether enough standard Hobbits could be sold to produce the remaining unfunded presales. Only JJP would be able to answer this.
Hence the risk of the pre-sale model. Not only is it a giant risk for the buyer, but also the seller.
Quoted from Shapeshifter:
If he has received a cash injection, shouldn't he announce? Even if he has been diluted big time, a cash injection is a positive.
Number 1, it's embarrassing for a business man (especially with a successful product) to admit he (or his company) is broke.
Number 2, If he is broke before producing the first of a prepaid game run, he would be admitting that his business has already failed.
Quoted from Ballypinball:
You Are Talking Out Of your Arse.
Gary Stern Doesn't even own Stern anymore, but is the Main Guy.
Investors invest in What they think will make money in the future
Trust me I wish I had shares in JJP with what's Coming!!
I'm reminded of the company HearMe back in 1998. I loved the product and bought some shares. Just before they stopped trading, I ordered the actual stock certificate so I could frame it and never forget that the product doesn't make the business. I still have that nice reminder of my ignorance and stupid investment. Although JJP's product is much more tangible, without the numbers, we don't know anything about the business. In my opinion, the business is suffering the risk of the pre-paid model which to me is like a great big loan you can never pay down. The delay of the Hobbit has nothing to do with parts or designs. It has to do with cash flow. Hobbit will not start until orders for WOZ slow down. There is no way JJP can shut down the flow of new money while building hundreds of machines that were paid for years ago. That money left the station long ago.
Quoted from fuko:
Pure speculation on your part. Unless you have some evidence to point to, other than your own enlightened opinion, you are simply spreading FUD. We've been down this road before... Jack is out of cash, lying about delays, etc. This place is an echo chamber
The best way to stimulate cash flow would be to begin TH production. You think they would rather sit on accumulated TH parts? Cash and carry TH games will outsell WOZ 10 right now. We all know they will have to mix in retail machines with preorder production as was done in the first year or 2 with WOZ. That is just a reality.
So you believe that producing several hundred prepaid machines will help cash flow. Please elaborate as your logic escapes me.
I also didn't realize that JJP has been producing to inventory. What is your evidence for this claim?
Yes and Kevin Kulek said refunds would come in days, not weeks. It's just a way to tell a "middle truth".. or a "lie" as middle truths are more accurately described. I've outright called Jack a liar several times in this thread, but I do respect the fact that his lies may be a necessary component for the success of his business model. I'd expect the Hobbit to start production around the time the WOZ market is completely saturated and not a moment sooner.
Quoted from Banker:
Jack obviously has a different thought process than Gary. He is my type of guy. I built a company for 35 years, always putting
the client first. We were a top 1% agency with that belief. Sold to a large institution , managed for 5 years, and retired at 61. Jack wants to make the best product , same as my firm, stern is a bottom line producer regardless of the product. That's why I retired, the client looses to bottom line only producers. Quality vs Quantity , that's the real question!
I'm not sure that JJP has demonstrated solvency yet. I hope they continue on as a going concern, but the pre-order model could be what breaks their back. It will be interesting when all the new Hobbit orders push the prepays back to the end of the line again. Will you still consider that "putting the client first"?
BTW a client loses to bottom line producers because business has to survive beyond its initial growth which is still questionable in case of JJP. Between lawsuits, cash flows due to prepayments, I wouldn't like to be in Jacks shoes until the Hobbit preorders are shipped and the whole prepay nonsense has disappeared.
As long as the market continues to absorb all the WOZ production, Hobbit will be delayed for any and all reasons. As soon as the sales of WOZ falls off, all those excuses will magically become moot. It's expensive to convert or start a line to build prepaid machines.
But thanks for your patronage, pre-buyers!
It seems like there may be a giant mea culpa coming from JJP soon. Is it too late to bail on your deposit or do you just need to find the greater fool? At any rate, JJP had better get busy or some of you will be looking for New Jersey Nathan before you know it.
Does anyone know the current state of WOZ sales? That will be your cue if or when Hobbit will hit the line. It's pretty obvious you can't believe anything from the horse's mouth.
Hey, Ted, you can downvote me all you like, but maybe Jack is just needing a stern talking to.. like you did to Kevin. How'd that one work out for everyone?
Quoted from Chippewa-Pin:
Yes, but where's the beer tap? If it's a great pin, some people will never admit it because of their hatred of Jack and hopeful JJP failure. Sad but true. They'll all of a sudden be miraculously missing from TH threads.
Really looking forward to the info coming out of Pintastic this weekend. Hope it's great news for those in on TH!!
This post is total BS. I don't know if it's projection or what the problem is with people who call anyone who is not a cheerleader a hater. I bet there is not one in a thousand on this board that is hoping for JJP's demise. Yet still we have to put up with all these straw man arguments that we all want JJP to close up shop.
Here is some truth that you sychophants seem to be unable to understand. People don't like being lied to. People don't like being strung along by liars. People don't like when they are shit on after giving the shitter their money. Jersey Jack basically shit on all his customers by telling the JPOP victims that they "got what they paid for." Perhaps he was setting up for his own MAJOR FAIL announcement. Perhaps he was just sad and lashing out because he has been outed as a chronic bullshitter who can't live up to his promises. Perhaps Jack is just a dick.
I have said a couple of times that if JJ wasn't exactly how he is, WOZ may have never made it to market. Am I a hater, too?
"Hater" is just a pejorative that people who actually hate like to project onto others so they don't have to acknowledge their own psychological weakness and inability to state an objection in any meaningful way.
Quoted from frolic:
By Stern pumping out ~50 machines a day. Impatient buyers can pick them up cash & carry, not wait a year for Hobbits to trickle out and fulfill all pre-orders. Hell, by the time Hobbits are generally available, Stern will have released 2-3 more titles.
JJP NEEDS to get their manufacturing issues figured out.
Don't worry, the Hobbit pre-orders will be behind any new cash orders. The cash flow problems at JJP are obvious.
Quoted from cait001:
It is an eye-opening reminder to remember that the biggest manufacturer of a desired product can hit only 50 units per day.
Yes, $250-300k revenue per day makes stern amateur in the world of pinball pre-order bankruptcies and multi-year delays. They really are nothing to model.
Quoted from HoakyPoaky:
I would argue that people on here (operators & pinball fans) drive the industry, not a bunch of mythical worldwide deep pocketed buyers that are out there buying up $9500 WOZRR & Hobbit Pre-orders left & right as Jack would have you believe.
I'd also be willing to bet that the majority of operators & fans feel that almost 10K for a NIB JJP pin is ridiculous. All I'm saying is it's not in there best interest to reveal a THIRD title when it's taken over 3 years to get the SECOND title out the door (which it has yet). It will cannibalize their own sales. My two cents, moving on....
The only guy local to me who has taken delivery of a WOZ is a non-operator who never even heard of pinside.
Quoted from Skyemont:
I just want to know why it went from September to now October. I want a specific reason. I think everyone deserves to know. So sick of these delays.
Quoted from bemmett:
Oh you mean don't pre-order and give him new money so we can get it in front of everyone that pre-ordered? I've debated it, sitting in line waiting is getting really old. Kind of a joke at this point.
It's vaporware until it isn't and you guys with pre-order ants in your pants not only deserve your disappointment, but you are 100% responsible for the perpetual delays. After all, you provided the cash flow that allows JJP to run wild with excuses while dowsing the fire that rightfully belongs under Jack's ass.
BTW, I'm looking at buying a HUO WOZ for 5 grand locally and the guy is begging so hard that I think I can get it for 4 right after Christmas if I am as patient as you pre-buyers (or unsecured VC's as the case seems to be).
And if it was a 100% cgi cartoon, you may have even liked it better. But for many of us, special effects are icing on dessert and not really that important in a well written and acted movie.
Quoted from iamabearsfan:
...It is not vaporware. It might be taking longer than it should, but that does not mean they are going under. There are way too many other variables. Variables that we simply do not have visibility to.
I know of at least two times I have seen almost this exact quote in the recent past.
Quoted from iamabearsfan:
Adding a second line is demand dependent. I wouldn't commit one way or another until I understood exactly what the demand is for TH AND what remaining demand there is for WoZ. Until the machine is ready from a parts and design perspective, I would keep my options open as well. So "maybe" could also mean "it depends". This depends on the numbers. While they may have the majority of that information, they simply don't have to make the call yet. To me that is smart business. This probably is their "plan". Plans have multiple paths based on facts.
We know demand is at least 1000+ machines so unless demand for WOZ falls to near 0, a second line would seem more than warranted. The part of the "plan" you are ignoring is the cash flow surplus and shortfall caused by the pre-order model... This is not "smart business" by any stretch of the term. It's a lot more like gambling with your customer's money ala Jon Corzine (MF Global).
Quoted from iamabearsfan:
Show me the balance sheet. Show me the cash flow statements. And the only one who as the exact forecast numbers for demand is JJP. So many experts on these boards....
You sound like a very effective executive. "Ignore the obvious so we can move forward in optimism."
Maybe you are just reminiscing about McMahon and "the fridge".
Quoted from Damonator:
My sources say the vendors are now paid and large orders have been placed - so the new money is certainly a good thing. I cut JJP a little slack because the pre-order model completely imploded in the last year...kudos to them for finding new investors. I am much more confident that everyone will get their Hobbit now - hopefully sooner rather than later.
What does it mean when a business practicing the pre-pay model is under a cash crunch before the first machine rolls off the line? The first thousand machines are paid for and there isn't money to pay vendors? Just think about that for a moment and realize how bad things really must be in Joisey.
Quoted from TaTa:
NO.They were purchased at MSRP at that time. So, customers who want to buy later after seeing and playing it can benefit from a distributor who took the risk of ponying cash up front and then passes it on to you!
PinballStar and all other distributors have a strict number to work with. Joe has GREAT prices for those that chose to wait. His risk and forsight is your reward!
I'm looking forward to seeing how you all get service and repair parts after jjp goes down. At that point, I'm expecting the prices to plummet on your oversized doorstops. Until then, I congratulate those of you who have the foresight and fortitude to stick out the delays and outright lies to get these highly coveted pieces.
Quoted from mattster:
GoT is ok but TH is awesome. To compare these two makes it easy to look into the heart of each company.
Gary manufactures pinball machines to make money.
Jack manufactures pinball machines to make pinball enthusiasts happy.
You keep telling yourself that, fanboi. Maybe the prices will fall in line once you and your brethren are done giving JJP exactly as much money as you can. Until then, I'm pretty sure the price reflects a desire for profit and the deliveries indicate a greater need for cash than the happiness of pinball enthusiasts.
The clowns with "inside information" are always the ones to take the best **FEEDBACK**.
(edited by mod)
I can't remember the last time I looked at the side of a cabinet while playing a great game of pinball. Isn't the game expensive enough without adding things no one will ever even recognize? Maybe you should just staple a bunch of c-notes around the playfied to show off. Seems like a much better value and easier to remonetize (as opposed to all the mods that make people want to pay less for the game).
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