Agreed.

In my opinion all they really need to do is add a few software controlled spot lights in appropriate places. They can still keep the light tubes to illuminate the majority of the playfield.

And get close to $8k for an LE.

No problem, get the MMr when it comes out. Enjoy the NIB MM experience, then sell it (or something else) to get the Hobbit if it looks really good.

I don't understand why people think they are entitled to updates just because they put money down on the Hobbit. In my opinion, JJP is under no obligation to provide any advanced information since pre-ordering is purely optional. That is, unless they promised to provide updates at certain time points.

Why does he owe them an update? Did he promise there would be an update whenever it was time to make a payment when they signed up for the pre-order?

Sure, JJP risks people giving up their pre-order and asking for refunds if he doesn't provide any updates when it comes time for another payment, but it seems like that is up to his discretion.

I think they scaled back a little too much on the artwork too. No way I'm getting the game now with it looking like that.

I'm thinking quite a few of those drivers will be used for drop targets.

Hmmm....where are the upper flippers?

Jack mentioned at the North West Pinball show that Jean-Paul de Win did the playfield art. He also mentioned that the upper left flipper was removed. A couple shots of the playfield art around the inlanes was shown.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/48529172

I was in on WOZ early and am definitely pro JJP and I have to agree with many of the above posts. Wolf and Spider are okay, the other two not so good.

I will reserve judgement until the final game is revealed but it does make you wonder if someone actually looked at those and said "looks great", if it was a case of "good enough" or they just didn't want to hurt feelings.

Perhaps it's not too late to change. Anyone else watch Face Off? It's amazing the quality and speed of their sculpts.

Well, I don't know what to say about that.

Normally, I try to adhere to the tenet, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".

But, since JJP has been receptive to input and occasionally makes changes, it makes it seem like providing an honest opinion (positive or negative) in a respectful way is better than being silent.

By the way, the pop bumper caps look great.

The more I look at the photos comparing the sculpts to the originals, I think part of the problem is that the orc and goblin that the sculpts are based on are not only ugly misshapen creatures, but too similar.

If I remember correctly, the biggest difference between the orcs and goblins in the movie tended to be their size and weapons, which is lost when you're only looking at a head.

Because what was shown was still more than what was expected. Pop bumper caps aren't even on the radar.

Edit: One of the reasons JJP has my money and Stern doesn't.

I agree this shouldn't turn into a Stern vs JJP fest but since TH and TWD LE are selling for about the same price, I think it's natural to make comparisons as information is revealed.

Not for the purpose of bashing but to help each company understand why and where we are choosing to spend our money.

Hopefully, the end result is a better pinball machine for us.

Unfortunately, oftentimes it seems when people compare features they get accused of "trotting out the same old fanboy BS". Maybe it's in the way they are saying it?

We all value different things in a pinball machine. I like lots of stuff in a new machine to feel like I'm getting my money's worth. Just my preference, but I want the manufacturers to know this so they produce machines more to my liking.

To me, saying that it looks like TH has way more "stuff" in it than the competition at a similar price point is fact, not fanboy BS. Since I value this, I'm more likely to cut JJP some slack in other areas and may use it as a reason why others should give them a break as well.

So true. That's the problem with releasing little bits of information. We get to focus completely on the one small aspect presented rather than seeing it as part of the whole and getting a better perspective.

Uh....yes it can.

"Anyone" might be an overstatement but that's true for both you and Alex, and you're the one who used it first.

Note: Just observations from another keyboard commando who has been reading these threads for a long time.

Personally, not a big fan of the "they're doing it so I might as well do it too" justification because
"they" say the same thing, resulting in a bunch of derailed threads.

Art is very subjective and so much depends on the quality of the artwork to me. In general, I don't like photo clip-art pasted on the playfield like Tron or AC/DC.

I like photo-realistic artwork like the translite on LOTR.

I don't care for the look of the hand drawn art on Lethal Weapon 3 (typical Data East of that era) but the playfield art on STTNG though similar in style looks much better.

The artwork on WOZ and TBL are a bit of a mix of photo clip-art and hand drawn but there is enough of the hand drawn artwork to make them both look really good to me.

The 100% hand drawn artwork on both TWD and Metallica look very good.

The Hobbit seems to be a mix of photo-realistic and photo clip-art. I think the playfield looks okay because the photos are more background images to create a cohesive whole, rather than isolated images of the characters in various action poses.

I think it's better if JJP doesn't list any features at this point unless they are 100% sure those features will be going into the game. I also don't see much of a downside to just waiting to reveal the completed game in it's entirety.

I pre-ordered the Hobbit without a clear idea of what would be included with the LE and the understanding that any features listed at the time could change when the game is put into production.

So why pre-order? Because it locks in the $7500 price and I can get a refund if I'm not happy with the game or the included features when it's finished.

I liked the idea of hitting targets to flip the pages of the book. I wonder how they are going to implement mode selection now.

The same thing was done in WOZ and I use the third flipper all the time even though most of the shots can be made with the lower flippers.

It is also necessary for the skill shots and melting the witch.

What I mean is that the third flipper is made necessary in WOZ by the software, not the playfield layout.

The same can be done for he Hobbit.

On the Hobbit, it looks like the left outlane "load arrow" kicker will send the ball to the upper flipper which then will take a shot at the dragon.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. You seem to be well informed so I have to think you're not new to pinside.

If that's the case, why not post under your actual account instead of creating a new one?

Do tell Lloyd! What do these new mechs add to the usual bash troll experience?

Thanks for the clarification Alex. I guess that puts a stop to any further flights of fancy....or does it?

Hmm...do tell Alex!

Edit: On second thought, don't tell. I've already seen enough to be in and don't mind some surprises down the road.

Yep, better to keep expectations in check and be pleasantly surprised rather than disappointed.

Granted, the decapitated head looks a little weird by itself but it's not finished yet and I think the detail in the sculpt thus far is good. If they are able to mechanically bring Smaug to life with talking, lighting effects and movement, I consider it a win (even in its current state) and prefer it over a tail that diverts the ball, or a claw that grabs the ball to lock or some such effect.

They may be more of a step sideways than a step back. I like the idea of playfield artwork that is more like a playfield plastic piece. Artwork printed on the backside of a piece of clear plastic that is then applied to the finished cabinet. Super durable and glossy. Might even be better than direct print.

I'm guessing one of the problems with a direct print cabinet is that all the pieces are printed before the cabinet is assembled. What a nightmare it must be to keep all the pieces undamaged through the assembly process.

The original promotion for WOZ was decals with more colors and higher definition that had previously been done. The direct print cabinets were a pleasant surprise, unfortunately it looks like JJP learned the hard way that they were not production worthy.

I was noticing this as well. I think the troll mechs take up a lot of space where inserts would go. I was also thinking that perhaps there wasn't a good way to use inserts to convey the amount of information 28+ modes might require, so they decided to use the two LCD displays instead and leave the playfield less cluttered and confusing.

Downside is I don't know how they will be able to do the amazing light shows they did with WOZ without all the inserts.

I think there are a lot of toys, just different. 11 directly controlled drop targets, four pop up targets, talking Smaug, 5" LCD and the lock bar button. And, I don't think we've seen everything yet. You could argue that the toys in the Hobbit have more potential to change up the game play than the toys in WOZ.

Cleary, JJP was going for a different type of game play with the Hobbit. We won't know how good it is until we play it. I'm hopeful because JJP has a very experienced team of designers. If they were allowed to make a game that they think is fun chances are good I will think it's fun.

In my opinion, JJP does not need to compete with WOZ. They need to compete with the other manufacturers. If they offer a machine that has more value than the competition for the price, then they've done well. It doesn't need to offer 2x the value to be a success.

WOZ was their flagship model and it needed to be spectacular for them to survive. I wouldn't be surprised if they lost money on it.

Why does a Stern LE command $3000 more than the pro? A fairer comparison would be the Stern LE to the Hobbit. Which is only a $1000 to $1500 difference.

Even so, where is the $4000 in the Hobbit LE versus the Stern TWD Pro? I don't know yet because I haven't seen the finished Hobbit. Though perhaps not $4000 higher, from what has been shown, the BOM is certainly much higher on the Hobbit LE (invisiglass, shaker, 26" LCD, 5" LCD, RGB lighting, back glass, powder coated armor, 11 drop targets, 4 pop up targets, talking and moving Smaug, three flippers, subway, two magnets, all metal ramps and habitrails, widebody, etc...) Actually, that's a pretty impressive list.

Still, the BOM doesn't tell the whole story. The rest of the story is told by the quality and amount of engineering that is put into the game. To me, the additional value is in the depth of code, the sound content, the artwork, LCD effects and lighting. With Keith and Ted on rules, David Theil on sound and JP on LCD animation, I would say the Hobbit has the potential to be an excellent value at $4000 more than the TWD pro.

Edit: Doesn't mean it will meet its potential or that there won't be people who would rather have TWD pro even if they were the same price, regardless of how good the Hobbit turns out.

Your honest perspective is appreciated, thanks for giving it.

One thing I've learned though is to not put too much stock in initial impressions on prototype machines at shows. They are often too flat which makes for slow game play.

As you mention, the open playfield on a wide body machine is a concern. I count nearly 15 shots from either flipper, including drops and pop-ups, so there is plenty to shoot at, but will it be fun?

Thanks for the clarification!

The trouble with these early game views is that all you mostly get is a sense of the physical layout of the game. The playfield layout is important but only accounts for maybe 40% of the total game to me.

Sometimes you can get a sense of things you might not like. For instance when I saw the layout of Xmen I thought that Wolverine would cut off the left side of the playfield and on AC/DC I didn't like the way the cannon blocked the view of the right outlane. I don't see anything obvious like that in the Hobbit layout.

Pinball is essentially a target shooting game. Whenever a new game is revealed I like to count the number of shots available to each flipper. I count 16 to 17 shots from the left flipper and 18 to 19 shots from the right flipper (orbits, ramps, captive ball, targets and pop-ups). That's a lot of shots. Also, having drop targets and stand-up targets in the same location will cause the ball to react differently to the same shots.

I think a good playfield design is one that gives you plenty of things to shoot at and doesn't get in the way of the fun, like the examples above, or things like weak ramp shots that return STDM or a made shot to a scoop whose kick out drains 10% of the time. I think a good playfield design also has shot trajectories that feel smooth and make sense. Steve Ritchie is a master at this.

The rest is up to the software, sound and display guys to make the most of the available shots.

The best games also create a little world under glass that pulls you into the theme with its toys, art, models, etc...

From what's been shown so far, I would say the Hobbit has great potential. As you say, knowing that Keith and Ted are on the rules, David is on the sound and JP is on the animations leads me to believe the resulting game will be special.

There's nothing that requires a person to pre-order. I think some (maybe most) people are better off waiting until a product is finished. It saves a lot of needless hand wringing over what the game may or may not be.

The only things you get with a pre-order is an initial discount, a locked in price and maybe the game a little sooner.

History has shown that it's not too difficult to get a game from an early adopter or a distributor (who ordered on day one) much quicker than if you had waited for your pre-ordered machine to be built.

So, that really only leaves cost as an incentive to pre-order.

Edit: Cost is my reason for pre-ordering. And, if it turns out I don't think the finished game is to my liking, JJP will give me a refund - as long as they stay in business (a risk I'm willing to take). I enjoy being along for the ride and watching the game as it develops.

I was thinking the same thing but I'm just going to wait until Dec, 31st to decide. Hopefully by then we will see good photos of the complete and final SE and LE machines.

I think you hit on a key difference in the Hobbit that hasn't been discussed much but in my opinion will make it's gameplay very unique. Namely, the stand-up targets (and openings in the Smaug area) behind the individually controlled drops.

This will allow them to make roving openings where the drop targets act as blockers in addition to roving drop targets that you want to hit. This will probably play a key part in giving variety to the more than 30 modes.

I think the mechanical action of the drops is going to be very cool visually and very fun to play.

Looks like #2 on Keith's list.

Reset all up, individually controlled down.

Game set-up sounds similar to WOZ when it was first revealed at the shows. It left some people with a bad impression of the gameplay.

How about a timed game instead of a one ball game for shows? That way everyone would get the same amount of play and the game could be set-up steeper and with stronger flippers.

I hope I get my Hobbit by the end of this month.

And some people have been crapping on anything associated with JJP since Jack first announced WOZ. These people appear to be disgruntled due to past dealings with Jack and/or comments Jack and WOZ enthusiasts made denigrating Stern four years ago.

So, we get the same thing, over and over in almost every JJP associated thread. They make their comments and other people tell them to go away because of their history more than what they are actually saying. And, off we go. Their response is generally the same, "JJP fans want to shut down anyone who has something negative to say". Which is not true, it would just be a more pleasant place if the people bearing grudges would go away and leave the JJP threads to those without an axe to grind.

Thanks for the report. I was wondering about both those things.

I'm concerned that "high gloss" also means "high glare". Did you notice if it was hard to see the artwork when you looked at the cabinet from different angles due to the glare?

It seems unlikely the noise from the drop targets being an issue as it's hard to imagine them being louder than the flippers and the pop bumpers.

One reason may be that they don't want the game to be too difficult for inexperienced players. I would set it up fast but put a long ball save on it so that people got at least a little time to play after the long wait in line.

I don't think I ever see an extra flipper as a bad thing, even if it doesn't have any unique shots, it allows you to hit the shots from a different (sometimes safer) angle.

Rules can certainly make it play a bigger role in the game as well. I wonder if they will use the pop-ups to block shots from the lower flippers so that they can only be made by the upper flipper. Clearly the windlance will serve the ball up to the upper flipper for a shot a Smaug.

We really don't know how much value the third flipper will add to the game at this point, or whether or not it will damage the ramp, but since the team at JJP is made up of some of the best pinball designers (who also appear to listen to what people say in these forums), I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and withhold judgement until the game is out.

I really don't understand all the complaints about pre-ordering since it is completely optional.

The main benefits of pre-ordering are locking in the price and getting an initial discount. Though I also like the payment plan because by the time the machine arrives, the money has been gone for so long the game sort of feels like it's free.

Don't like it, don't do it. No one is forcing you. If you want to get the pre-order beneifts I think you should consider the following:

1) There have been enough examples of delays from all the manufacturers (except Stern who doesn't announce a machine until it's almost ready to ship) that they should be expected by now.

2) People who are willing to pay more will be able to get a machine as soon as they're out, either from a distributor or an individual who ordered very early.

3) You might not like the game and/or think it's worth the price.

4) You might lose whatever money you have deposited if the company goes out of business.

Maybe when you push the button the hurry-ups (troll, orc, spider and goblin pop-ups) either stay up or stay down, whichever is more helpful. You're invisible after all.

I disagree. I think it would be very difficult for someone to make up their mind at this point.

How many time does it need to be shown that a game needs mostly complete code, proper set-up and actually playing the game before you can determine if a game is for you?

WOZ was at about software version 3.0 before people really started to appreciate it. Hobbit is about 0.4 right now.

In my opinion, playfield layout counts for about 40% of the playing experience. Rules, sounds and display effects count for the rest. AFM is a great example of this.

I expect you will be able to adjust the lower post and since the ball hugs the upper metal side rail when the kickback fires it won't be affected by the adjustment.

I see what your saying, however that schematic is old. The rail moving as shown in the original idea was caused by a rotating cam.

It looks like the rail is now stationary.

It's difficult for me to imagine a video mode that would add much value to the game unless it took a ton of resources to make.

So, I say NO. Better to spend those resources on game code and audio.

I recommend waiting until the code is in some semblance of a completed state before deciding what veterans and newbies can or cannot figure out.

At just about the 25 second mark in the video above, you can see a right ramp shot get diverted to the kickback and held.

Did anyone else notice that the end of ball bonus is always the same score?

That's going to get boring pretty quick.

I was at CAX and saw the presentation by David Thiel and Butch Peel. I think they had a really good presentation and David shared some different sound clips.

He's up to 1100 voice clips and gave an example of one of the modes, where each shot made is accompanied by a "stinger" (video and sound clip). It reminded me of LOTR but on steroids. He said creating the stingers for 30+ modes seemed overwhelming at first but he has most of them done now. He also said the Hobbit has at least 2x the content of any sound package he's done in the past. The word used in the presentation was "Epic".

The Hobbit has been submitted for electrical testing (UL?).

A voice actor has been hired and the script has been written. David said if he wasn't at the show, he most likely would have been recording the custom speech. He said that once the custom speech is acquired, it shouldn't take long to incorporate it into the game.

Well, I guess that's true if you use every pre-order to date as a basis for that conclusion.

Still, never is a long time. Some day someone might actually hit a pre-order date...........naw!

I don't quite understand why some people have problems with a company offering pre-orders either since it is entirely optional for the buyer.

Things I like about pre-ordering:
a) Incentives (lower price, LE features, etc.)
b) Price is locked in.
c) Not as painful making payments in installments.

Things that don't bother me much about pre-ordering:
a) The wait. (I have plenty of other machines to play, fix, etc..)

Things I don't like about pre-ordering:
a) Game not what you expected and company no longer giving refunds.
b) Companying going under and not getting the game.

Gotta say, even though I pre-ordered the Hobbit, it seems to me if someone is patient enough to wait years with a pre-order, why not skip the pre-order and just wait longer (if necessary) to pick up the game? Especially if you're a really picky collector (there's nothing better than seeing the actual game you are buying).

So, why did I pre-order then?
1) Things I like mentioned above.
2) Knowing that I could have bought the game at a much lower price (if the price went up significantly) would bother me to the point of not buying the game until I found one for a similar price.
3) I'm not that picky of a collector.
4) I enjoyed the experience with WOZ of following all the pre and post production developments.

I think if you are willing to pay a premium, you can always get a game quickly.

Sometime you can get a game quickly, maybe even at a discount if you're at the right place at the right time.

Only by pre-ordering, do you lock in the price. That might not be a good thing though if the game is a dud and the market price drops before you get your game. Risk vs reward.

While you're waiting for your game to arrive, you may have to just sit and watch as others who haven't been waiting for years buy from distributors who were first in line (because they bought in before the game was even announced to the public).

With WOZ, some distributors changed their early order LE slots (that had not yet been sold to customers) to Standards. That way they got the Standards quickly for immediate sale and their LE's went to the end of the line to be sold later. (If I remember correctly, this was the explanation from the factory)

Yes, but it may be a necessary evil if we want new pinball manufacturers. Or at least it was.

Stern was on life support when JJP announced WOZ. At the time, it seemed unthinkable that anyone would be crazy enough to start up a new pinball factory that would design and produce games in the thousands.

I doubt JJP would have ever tried if not for pre-order money to fund the start-up.

Hopefully new companies can find other financial backing now or quickly get to a point where they don't require pre-order money on a new machine to remain solvent and complete the current game.

If you look at the timeline on IPDB here are the games that surround the announcement of WOZ in January of 2011.

2008-04 Indiana Jones
2008-07 Batman
2008-11 CSI
2009 NBA
2009-02 24
2009-12 The Lord of the Rings (Limited Edition)
2010 Batman (Standard Model)
2010 Iron Man
2010 Iron Man Classic
2010-01 Big Buck Hunter Pro
2010-08 James Cameron’s Avatar
2010-12 James Cameron’s Avatar (Limited Edition)
2011 Disney TRON Legacy
2011 Disney TRON Legacy (Limited Edition)
2011 The Rolling Stones
2011 The Rolling Stones (Limited Edition)
2011 Transformers™ (Pro)
2011 Transformers™ Autobot Crimson Limited Edition
2011 Transformers™ Decepticon Violet Limited Edition
2011 Transformers™ Limited Edition ("Combo")
2012 AC/DC (Pro)
2012 Disney TRON Legacy (3rd Edition)
2012 Metallica Master of Puppets (Limited Edition)
2012 The Avengers (Limited Edition)
2012 The Avengers (Pro)
2012 The Avengers Hulk (Limited Edition

I don't remember any of the games prior to WOZ being very well received by the pinball community. I think things started to turn around for Stern with Tron. This was due to theme and gameplay, not an increase in BOM. To be fair, the economy was picking up too.

So they don't become a high volume, closer competitor?

Sometimes I wonder if these new start-ups believe in magic.

When Heighway made the above announcement about Aliens at Expo last year, an April 2015 production date seemed so far fetched it made me question their competence (especially since they're first game was long overdue).

How can they realistically expect to have a "global" launch in 2 months if they don't even have a flipping whitewood to show? Would approval from the licensor be required for a whitewood?

Edit: Sorry, off topic.

Speaking of late games, how about some Hobbit news!

It may be unfortunate, but I don't think there should be any expectation of privacy when posting something on the internet, even if it's in a private forum.

I've supported JJP's efforts from the beginning and I have no problem with people "honestly" discussing and sharing opinions on any aspect of JJP (or any manufacturer), positive or negative, whether or not they are "in" on the game. This is a pinball forum afterall.

The people I have a problem with are the ones who show time and again that their posts are the result of some personal grievance. Topic doesn't seem to matter, they track every thread related to their "issue". Their posts consistently serve to incite and inflame and they're speculations consistently take and perpetuate the most negative slant. As a result, my conclusion is that their criticisms are not "honest" and that is what I have a problem with.

This problem is not isolated to JJP, it just seems worse with them. I've seen people who are great contributors in other areas of Pinside get on some crusade and then just can let it go.

In my opinion, we would stay on topic and Pinside would be a lot more pleasant if individuals (determined by the mods) exhibiting these tendencies were not allowed to post in threads related to their "issue" (JJP, Stern, MMr, whatever). Perhaps a "Forum" ban?

Not only are they not contributing anything of value but they are actively hindering constructive discussion. I don't think many people would be affected but it's amazing how much trouble just a few individuals can make.

Really like the look of the new Gold armor.

I had a JP with a similar looking powder coat finish and I really liked the feel of the extra texture.

That's one of the reasons I stayed with the LE. The second was that I preferred the cabinet art with the different characters on each side. The third was that without being able to see the finished machines in person, it seemed best the stay with the original vision of the machine.

Two of the three reasons are still valid so I'm holding onto the LE, barely.

The game is looking fantastic! The only disconnect in the look for me is the silver ramps. I think brass would look so much better. I wonder how hard it would be to change the finish later.

I wonder what material Gottlieb used for the ramps on Stargate?

stargateramps.jpg

I like having an extra flipper to make shots, even if they can also be made by the lower flippers, as it gives different shot angles.

I think lowering the W drop target to reveal the hole when making the left orbit (for a brief period of time) is a good idea. I don't think differentiating between the upper or lower flipper would be that important as I would expect hitting it with the lower flipper on the fly would be very difficult.

Woz is an amazing game and is so loaded with stuff. Hobbit is more open with less stuff on the surface, but I'm hoping it will also be amazing in it's own ways.

To me, pinball is basically a "shooting gallery" type of game. Fun shots that when hit give a satisfying result in the form of points, sound, lighting effects and game progression.

I'm thinking JJP did not go through all the effort to put 11 individually controlled drop targets in the game (with stand-up targets behind them) just to use them as they've been used in the past. Cactus Canyon only has 4 individual drop targets (not in banks) and they really add to the gameplay.

Even though the playfield layout looks a little ho-hum, the potential is there with the Hobbit to create a playing experience unlike anything we've seen in the past.

For example, I can envision a mode where one drop target cycles around the playfield or another where an opening between the drop targets cycles instead. You can create a similar effect with insert lights but there is just something special about mechanical movement to me.

That potential combined with the degree of polish JJP put into WOZ, the LCD assets, sound, lighting and animated talking Smaug are what have me anticipating one heck of a shooting gallery.

It's all up to the imagination of the programmers and the time they are given to work on it.

Are there any video game companies that work like this? It seems like unless they have multiple teams in place, it must take years to develop a game.

Nice to see you on here Vic. Welcome.

I miss some of the great NIB deals you used to offer many years ago.

Agreed, and I'm an early WOZ buyer.

I think the constant comparisons putting down Stern or overly exuberant claims are part of the reason people get annoyed with JJP fans and want to point out every flaw when a JJP game comes out.

This I disagree with. The DMD/LCD effects definitely contribute to my overall playing experience.

For example, the excellent quality of the dots on STTNG add to the immersive experience of that game for me whereas the poor quality of the dots on ST detract from my overall experience.

It's not even fair to compare the LCD on WOZ which is on an entirely different level.

Edit: Just noticed you weren't serious as evidenced by your eyeroll.

It is an opportunity lost, but it's the content that can make an LCD really add value. I don't know what kind of implementation we will see from Stern with the speed at which they puts out games. So, I'm keeping my expectations in check.

Seriously though, at current prices, I just want a game to be an excellent representation and implementation of it's theme. I have plenty of games to keep me occupied, so I see no value in cutting corners on a game just to get it out to me quickly.

I hope you're right and Heighway proves that a game that is comparable to a JJP game, but at a much lower price, can be made.

JJP showed Stern that people were willing to pay a lot more for a machine. Would be nice to see something going in the other direction.

I'm happy to play any game that's fun, whether it's on location or in someone else's house, regardless of how ugly it is or whatever other flaws it might have.

However, if I'm going to pay what manufacturers are asking for games these days, the game has to have it all, a theme I like, good art, game play, sound, rules, etc...

Otherwise I'll just hold onto my money and wait for something to come along that does hit all those marks.

The story at the time was that some of the JJP distributors who had bought in day one with multiple LE orders (Standards were not available when WOZ was announced) chose to change some of their LE slots not yet sold to Standards and moved their unsold LEs to the end of the line.

If this was the case, those Standards wouldn't affect when people who had pre-ordered LEs got their machines.

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw photos of the production getting started soon, but a lot needs to happen before games ship, even if there are zero issues. All the parts have to be in, line completely set-up, games tested, etc...

Add in all the upcoming holidays and I will be very surprised if games get into buyers' hands this year.

I gave them a bigger benefit of the doubt with the belief distributors still had unsold LE's they preordered early. After seeing distributors like Automated have NIB LE games for sale long after they are supposedly "sold out", I now take "sold out" to mean that all LE's are pre-sold to distributors but not necessarily to end customers.

In this scenario, they would change unsold, pre-ordered LE's to Standards. Then move the unsold LE's to the end of the line. This way, no line jumping occurs.

I think he may have misspoke as I don't see why his remaining LE's would move to the end of the line, only the LE's that were replaced by Standards should have been moved to the end of the line.

Hard to tell, but the trim is not stainless.

I don't quite get this. The photo below was posted a couple of days ago. Those aren't the "same empty cabinets we have been seeing." They are clearly filled with playfields and are in JJP's final test area.

12510520_1108652395820022_7013084657196954903_n_(resized).jpg

If you zoom in really close, the finished and strapped boxes in the background say Hobbit!

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Ha! Made you look.

I wish I had an immaculate memory.

Time will tell, but I would be surprised if Keith didn't give us a nuanced ruleset that made the modes worth playing.

LOTR has this and it doesn't seem likely that Keith would take a step backwards when showing what a mode based game should be (to paraphrase him).

I think the biggest thing about the left ramp (at least right now) is that it adds time when in a timed mode. It also changes the mode when not in a mode.

Reminds me a little of TSPP where a lot of the fun (and points) revolve around not letting the timer run out.

Did you know all these things after your first 10 games on LOTR?

I don't own Tron and have only played it at friends' houses and on location. I don't know any of the distinct rules or combos or ways of cashing them out. I also don't know how the modes help you during sea of simulation. Nor have I noticed the game guiding me through audio or visual cues to figure these things out.

Some games are more approachable than others but I think it just takes time to learn the nuances of a ruleset. The deeper the game the longer it takes. Some games may require reading a rule sheet to get a complete understanding.

Understanding the rules doesn't mean I will like them. But in general, the better I understand the rules, the more enjoyable the game is to play.

Ah, you had a friend coaching you along. That makes a huge difference. Though I think LOTR does a masterful job of guiding a player along with it's audio and visual cues. If Hobbit ends up doing as well I would be thrilled.

Funny how different perceptions can be. I saw the Midwest Launch Party stream and came away with a very different opinion.

I thought the game was beautiful, looked fast with lot's of shots, and had nice video, sound and light integration. I liked the variety of skill shots and the talking Smaug. It also seemed challenging as people were not having overly long ball times.

I see the potential for a great game.

I also see the potential for a grinding, chopping wood game.

I certainly couldn't make the call right now. But then, I like mode based games.

Do you remember how quickly code updates were released when WOZ first hit the streets?

I really enjoyed that aspect of the early-buying WOZ experience.

We all want a great playing game and it was neat seeing Keith make changes based on our feedback once in a while.

But wouldn't it be equivalent to me keeping my day one order that I received a couple of weeks ago NIB then selling it to someone else?

How would JJP be doing anything wrong in that scenario?

I don't think so. But you can choose which mode to play by hitting the left ramp when Book is lit. The mode will advance each time the ramp is hit, but you also have until the ball hits the inlane to change the modes (forwards and backwards) with the flipper buttons.

I like having only a single mode running at a time because it gives me something to concentrate on and the sound and visual cues don't get muddled.

Though you can't stack modes, some modes are very short (single shot) and you can finish and start new modes during multiball.

According to Keith, there will be a lot of strategy to the order in which you choose modes, should you play the game that way. Idea being that the game grows with you.

I think you are implying that since some Distributors have games in stock for immediate sale it means JJP is somehow bypassing the longstanding pre-order LEs and letting these distributors jump the line.

Those two things don't logically follow.

More likely there are distributors that placed orders on day one so they would have stock to sell when the game was released to capitalize on any initial hype and impatient non-pre-order buyers. Smart business practice.

If anything, I would guess that JJP may be allowing pre-order LE buyers to jump the line by not shipping all of the distributor day one (or pre-day one) orders first.

Don't worry about it. You did nothing wrong sharing your excitement here. Whenever a distributor sells a game before every pre-order is delivered, JJP gets accused of taking new money over old.

If anything, the distributor is the one who could be at fault if he kept one of his pre-order customers waiting to sell a new game to you. However, this is unlikely as not only are the pre-order LEs and SEs numbered, but they may also be customized with a playfield protector, rad-cals and extra dragon head.

Has Keith even done a ruleset without multiball progression? I'm not concerned and really like the way the game is shaping up.

A friend came over the other day to play the Hobbit. After everything he has read on Pinside, he was surprised at how fast the game was, how much he liked the way the game played and how good the shots felt.

I asked him if he felt my review (below) was accurate.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/2016-hobbit-update-thread-1/page/26#post-3075615

He thought for a moment then surprised me by saying he didn't think I spoke highly enough of the game.

Sorry if this is a dumb suggestion, but did you check that the Smaug mouth settings are still around 120 for minimum and 150 for maximum?