WoZ raised the bar to a new level, this will set a world record high mark no doubt in my mind. I'm glad I'm in on this one.
WoZ raised the bar to a new level, this will set a world record high mark no doubt in my mind. I'm glad I'm in on this one.
JJP got many passes on slipped dates due to the groundbreaking work his team was doing and the many many unknowns involved in creating a company and pinball from the ground up. Those unknowns are knowns now. Any slip to projected dates this time around will be met with much less understanding I'm sure. I do expect a finished machine unveiled with the final movie as promised with a solid idea of and delivery schedule for the LEs. This is getting to be a more and more competitive business (thankfully) and JJP better perform or they won't make it.
These are relatively small bash toys guys. If they don't disintegrate with repeated play I'll be happy. How much detail can you put on a bash toy? I'm happy with them. You may as well zoom in on a 1.5" square part of a plastic and critique that. Like WoZ, the machine will be greater than the sum of it's parts.
Pick pick pick, or hack hack hack. It's a plastic it's not plastic, who cares? Seems everyone wants critique every screw and nut. I'm 100% confident it will look great as a package if WoZ is any indication of what we can expect.
Quoted from CraZ4Pin:
Seriously?? Again with the personal attacks and gangpiling on me? All the personal attacks on me and childish name calling (and camel toe pictures??) ... that's not embarrassing. But me expressing some negative opinions in a respectful way, that's embarrassing "to the community"? The majority of my posts last night were simply correcting Pinchroma who stated that a full WOZ prototype had been produced and shown in just 13 months from first announcement (comparing it to DP's time taken to produce a TBL prototype.) That's just not true.
Quoted from CraZ4Pin:
And Skit-B ... and Multimorphic .. and Quetzal Pinball ... and Heighway Pinball .. and Planetary Pinball ... and Spooky Pinball.
And why do they? because they are relatively unproven entities. The have to give a little more info to assure the masses they are in it for real. Stern has nothing to prove. They are established. I would expect JJP to provide less info going forward now they have proven they are a legitimate pinball machine producer. I certainly would have cut off the info after WoZ if I were running the show. Every time JJP provides anything the trolls crap all over it.
Quoted from CraZ4Pin:
^ This is you guys derailing the conversation (again) to make this another attack on me.
I didn't criticize the secrecy. That was txstargazers labeling of it. I asked an honest question. The hype machine seems in full effect so there must be amazing surprises in store, no? I only asked what folks thought it could be.
Point I was making is JJP is providing updates but does not have to as they are established as a legit pinball maker (as Stern is). I went on to say I would not be as open as JJP is being because of trolls crapping on anything they put out.
The fact you took that as an attack is very telling though.
Quoted from txstargazer3:
I enjoy seeing the advance teasers from JJP and I hope that they continue to do this with future games. However, I can understand that having every bit of info turning into a lightning rod for criticism gets old fast. Game #3 will give us a good indicator of what JJP plans to do from now on. Without a license Jack can do as much or as little as he wants in advance of releasing the game.
I like seeing what I am getting while I wait but would like to see JJP get to a point where thay are ahead of the process and can spring new games on us every 6 months or so without all the anticipation. This waiting 2-3 years for a game is for the birds. It's a pinball machine, not a skyscraper.
Quoted from lowepg:
There's a big difference here (still).
JJP isnt dribbling out updates out of ther goodness of their hearts.
Unlike Stern, JJP is still beholden to pre-payment to keep the lights on. When they are asking for people to pay years in advance, they *DO* have to provide more updates than an established manufacturer.
Id prefer not to know ANYTHING about TH prior to it being *done* but I understand why that just isnt going to happen (due to above).
My hope is that JJP has worked out the kinks on production (the past few weeks certainly seem like it!), and The Hobbit will move much faster into the market. And THEN, JJP#3 may not require prepayment at all... And they can just release info when its ready, not when they think they have to to keep investors from panicking.
See my follow-up post, yes JJP does have to throw us a bone or two for TH. They really need to shorten production to < 12 months and eliminate the pre-payment model. Looks like #3 may bring them into that mode.
Quoted from HENSBROOKER:
May I remind everyone that Jack already has changed his pre-order/info release system on JJP#3 !
INFO RELEASE: The only thing which has been announced so far is the fact Pat is working for/with JJP now. No theme has been released and or other information. Jack has mentioned before that "Pat's game was not far behind of the Hobbit". That would indicate there is (lots of) info to release, but Jack just keeps info under the hood...
The same goes for the pre-payment plan. It seems he has changed the way of pre-ordering too. Due to the fact Pat is going strong (a whitewood has been mentioned) means Jack COULD have opened pre-orders already, but he just didn't. And for good reason; If Pat's game is as good as some of us hope it is, it could "eat" some of the Hobbit sales. So, no JJP#3 info is to be expected a reasonable amount of time after the release of the Hobbit.
Quoted from CraZ4Pin:
In that case you can also claim that WOZ and TH never had a pre-payment plan either. Nobody has ever lost their deposit by not making a payment by the recommended dates and people were frequently told to just make payments when they were comfortable or to just make the final payment when the game was ready (which many/most did.) It has really only ever been the initial deposit to reserve your game that was important.
Seems you seek ways to be contrary, your observations and opinions are not thought provoking, just provocative. Do you enjoy creating and perpetuating ill will? No offense intended, really, just don't know why you continually stir the pot.
A deposit is a deposit meaning I will buy your product when it's available, prepayment is prepayment meaning I am buying before it's available.
Quoted from CraZ4Pin:
What the heck are you talking about?? How was I being provocative? I was stating the facts...
No, you were being obtuse. "in that case you can also claim that WOZ and TH never had a pre-payment plan either"
Look, I'm just saying you have filled this thread with loads of crap, meaningless argumentative points, repetitive statements and opinions. Fine have an opinion, state it, then be done with it. Really no need to continue to add negative value to a conversation. What is the name of this thread? oh yeah, Hobbit update.. Got any, no? anything meaningful or informative to say? no? then STFU already.
I liked the old art but the new art blows it away. Nicely done. PF LCD placement needs work IMO. Looks shoehorned in.
Quoted from Pinchroma:
The housing isn't final. It will look more integrated in production models.
I figured as much, Looking forward to the changes being fully integrated. The mock-up has the old pf art, new art will really make it pop. Smaug is not finished, no diverter integration with the tail yet. The brighter colors and the elimination of the "rock" will improve the walk-up appeal tremendously. I see my suggestion of light up eyes was heeded, cool. It's safe to assume Smaug will operate as originally designed but it is much improved cosmetically. JJP gets high grades for listening, the wireforms are much better. Unsure what the blocks around Smaug are but again I'm sure it will make sense once the trim is completed.
Back to our regularly scheduled program...Hobbit. Anyone else think JJP will reveal a surprise Topper to be included for the LE/SEs? I bet there will be one.
Agree, JJp is having a hard time integrating the book. Sacrificed perhaps one of the best touches in the barrel pops to wedge in the book. Look at relocating it to the Apron!! Restore the barrels characters, add a 3rd!!
I'm getting getting a strong sense of Déjà vu. I can accept a moderate amount of delay if it means a better end product but if the machine is now "done" and we have seen all of the production version... and still no production schedule... I'm trying to stay positive.
Quoted from JerseyJack:
This time we have a factory and people - so all we need are the later arriving parts.
Look at MMR - it took how long to rebuild an 18 year old game??
That's happening too......
MMr delays are understandable, new platform and high expectations to live up to. They felt much of the same growing pains you experienced. Everyone get's a free pass 1st time around. I put the WoZ experience behind me the moment I doubled down on TH, having faith that WoZ was your "worst" effort. I'll reserve judgement on that score until I see the finished product. You did set a very high bar though. I hope I get to make that judgement early this year!!
It's not possible to tell if it will be a hit or a miss until it's done. May I submit some examples..
SM - poo pooed until the code was done now they are highly prized.
IM - was chewed up and spit out at first, now we are lining up for seconds.
Totan - was considered a dog but try to find one under 5k now
CV - closed out at bargain basement prices, now fageddaboudit
POTC - was meh.. now hey!
Wh2o - B now an A title, same thing happening to RS
WoZ - was not received all that warmly at first but with the latest code, it's a sure keeper (wish I had kept mine now)
Even TSPP was a sleeper, we're wide awake now.
Time will tell the tale of TH. I'm in and will remain in until the code is complete. The hardware does need to be there but the sheer possibilities the JJP platform affords boggles the mind. It can be any number of games depending on who is programming it. Keith has a proven track record, I have every confidence it will be a cherished addition to any collection, if not off the bat, eventually. That said, I would like to see a couple changes before it starts rolling off the line.
It's a shame the very cool pops got ruined by shoehorning in the book. Could have been so much nicer. I really thought three bobbing barrels would have a VERY nice touch. I guess Jack took all the crap he could take and drew a line. I don't blame him, you have to call it at some point or it'll never get built. I really hope the character barrels are made available after production. I'm sure someone can create an extender harness to move the book. It would make for a great dynamic instruction card/price card In the apron. It would be great there in attract mode as well. If the secondary mini LCD screens become commonplace no doubt that's where they will end up.
There were always two barrels. But only one now has a character and they are muted by the book floating over them.
Quoted from ek77:
TZ is a perfect example of deeper rule set is not always better.With TZ you start each and every mode then start one more time and all modes start. With TSPP there are far fewer modes but you must finish the modes to increase the time you have to fight alien invasion. TZ you just start the modes TSPP you finish the modes TSPP is the better rule set.
I classify the TZ ruleset as wide, not deep at all. many simple modes. This game is cool for it's time, the hardware makes the game not the rules. TH is/will be strong on both fronts.
I'm getting the protector, cheap insurance on a very expensive toy. If I don't like it after a while, I can remove it.
Quoted from Goronic:
Man, we ain't got time for facts!
EDIT: This is the hobbit thread and we are talking about dresses. DRESSES - WTF!!!
What kind of accessories would one wear with that dress? LOL. Just about all the threads concerning JJP go way off the tracks. Suppose it's inevitable when we have 2 years plus to discuss before they ever think of shipping.
76 posts since I checked this thread yesterday and still NOTHING of worth being said..sad..
Why feed the trolls? Enough, draining subject, nothing of value here. I'll go to JJP for updates when I feel the need for any real updates.
I would not be at all surprised if I don't see my game until 2016, disappointed yes, but I have nobody to blame but myself. I was an early WoZ pre-order as well. So fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I can live with the shame though, the game will be epic as WoZ currently is. I'm sure I'll get it eventually and will enjoy it. This will be my last pre-order though, getting too old for this. I'll just stick to games that are shipping from here on out.
I'm going with the whole PF protector. If it gets to looking bad, I'll remove it. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.. Too much money to risk even a single chip and I'll bet it prevents a lot of dimpling. Hell the whole game is overkill, why not go for it?
I look at it the same way on things I plan to use up. For instance, my wife likes to keep the protective film over the shiny plastic parts on new appliances. They get wrinkled, hazy and ugly over the life of the appliance. We ended up replacing the item with new looking plastic parts. My thought is the reason she wants to keep it on is so it will look nice but it has the opposite effect throughout the life of the item. But, for a pinball machine, I don't fool myself into thinking I will keep it forever, too many machines, too little space to keep them. I want to keep the pin looking as new as possible to keep the value up. When a single scratch or divot on an otherwise pristine machine can impact the value -$1000-2000 or more, I will happily use a protective film to assure it will stay as new. Also, the amount of gameplay I put on a machine is relatively minimal and chances are the film will look just as good as or better than a "commando" pf for my use.
Yeah, I'm tired of the wait but the presentation at the NW show really drove home that what JJP is doing is SO far and above any pinball ever created including WoZ, it's understandable why it's taking so long. Yes the price is high but JJP is adding MUCH more value for the money than any others asking the same price. Not going to mention any of the examples but you only have to compare TH and anything else out there and any reasonable person has to say that what Jack is building is a Cadillac among a lot of Kias.
Quoted from ledge:
well someone earlier said late summer (2015) shipping ? so wheres that grain of salt.
edit: or was that when production starts....
I don't have it on authority but hearing August production start over and over and rumblings of comments that do come from a source very close that news is pending soon.
I am still hoping JJP springs a topper on us. He said no many times but who would complain if that's been a little white lie? For the money, it should have one.
Meh, just a letdown seeing 50 new posts on the summary, clicking in excitement thinking something new is finally happening only to find nothing but OT small talk after weeding through them all, nothing of interest for those that were drawn to it for a promise of an update. At least someone could have thrown up a couple of boob shots as a consolation prize.
Quoted from fosaisu:
Sorry dude, those days are over:
Sad days indeed when we must separate boobs and pinball. What's next, censored backglass pics?
In other (relevant) news.. Jack says he will be speaking to the delivery status on TH at Pintastic!!
Quoted from Expletive:
Did Jack really say that those who paid thousands of dollars to JPop for one of his pins got what they paid for?
Is this serious?
No, what Jack posted was respectful, thoughtful and sympathetic to both JPOP and his customers. What pinside trolls do is take things out of context and try to tear down a hard working guy who's doing his best. These trolls have no dog in the hunt, they are not Jack's customers and to them I say, if you are not buying the games, why are you here? I have voiced many criticisms of JJP's games and I have also praised the games where it was warranted but the difference is, I have had a stake in JJP's ventures since day one, with a day one WoZ order and TH on order paid in full (for some time now). There have been ups and downs in the whole process. I'm sure Jack could have pulled the plug at many points during the creation of WoZ and screwed his initial investors but he didn't, he stuck with it and produced a proven winner in WoZ. Through it all, I believe Jack has done his level best to create the best game he can within the numerous constraints and limitations he has encountered and learned about along the way. All said and done, compared to his peers, his games deliver the best value for the money in the industry today.
So to JJP customers and potential customers, please, add your perspective, criticisms and approval where you see fit. To you that are not interested in JJPs games with an agenda, I politely say...
Quoted from Concretehardt:
No it wasn't!
The same thing could of been said about the "trolls" that spoke out about JPOP when there were signs of trouble early on. I sure wish I would of listened to those "trolls" it would of saved me thousands of dollars.
Jack I think your a decent guy with a good heart, but please for the love of God hire a PR guy to deal with customer communications... you are your own worst enemy.
You are making my case, you are saying the messaging is the problem.
Have a nice day! (Don't tell me what kind of day to have. Who are you to order me around like that? The arrogance of some people! Who made you boss of my attitude?...)
Point is, if you are bent on tearing someone down, there is nothing you can say to them that won't be taken wrong.
Not sure why anyone would be worried they will not get their game, Jack has a proven record that he does deliver.
So, the Hobbit, looking good after Jack took feedback from Expo to heart huh? I thought is was shaping up to be a good possibly a great game. With the considerable changes, I have no doubt it's be a home run.
Quoted from jwilson:
I'm pretty sure Jack isn't a Zidware customer either, so by your logic, what is he doing commenting on it?
I can see the other side of the argument that Jack was just commenting on a sad situation, seeing Popaduik as a broken man and feeling bad for him and his family. But Popaduik made his own bed and this is the price of laying in it, and seeing that the largest thread in Pinside history is about Popaduik failing, maybe commenting on it at all isn't in anyone's best interests. I know I feel bad being involved now.
And, as the CEO of the 2nd largest pinball manufacturer, Jack needs to understand his words carry significant weight in the collector community. And, as someone who's had his fair share of negative comments on the Zidware situation, I'm at the polar opposite end on JJP and the Hobbit - I'm very confident Hobbit is going to be rolling off the line soon enough based on what evidence I've seen.
I look forward to seeing it at my friend's homes - the same friends who bought WoZ when it was just a dream, and lost five figures on the dream of Popaduik.
Jack didn't post here!! Someone once again, took his conversation meant for a whole different audience and threw it up here to feed the trolls. Besides, he does have a dog in the hunt, JPOP is/was a peer. His conversation on the matter was as a peer to JPOP, on his OWN forum and was sympathetic to the trials and tribulations of a pinball maker's startup and how those challenges can easily be too much for someone without all their ducks in a row and is challenging at best for those that do.
His comments were supposed to be between him and his group on the JJP board. He had asked that he speak for himself here and not have everything he confides to his constituents automatically uploaded to be picked apart, analyzed, scrutinized, criticized and turned upside down as it always seems to be. He's quite capable speaking for himself here when it's appropriate to do so and does quite often.
Now, about the Hobbit, looking good no?
Quoted from jgentry:
You don't post anything on the internet without full understanding that it may end up used elsewhere and it is not protected. It might have been his own forum but he does not own the internet and there is no way to stop sharing of content.
Jack seems like a nice enough guy. He just needs to not post on forums period as his words are like vinegar to most people. Have someone that already works for him with good PR skills handle it. A good rule is to never comment on competing businesses in your field. If he wanted to say something it should have been "It's an unfortunate situation and I feel bad for everyone involved. JJP is working hard to get The Hobbit out and looking forward to game #3 soon. Thanks for all of your continued support"
Post 7000 (after some were deleted) yes, I agree, one must assume people will take your posts no matter what your intent or wishes. I would not call it sharing though, sharing is something you do willingly. People can be.. something. Anyway enough on the subject for me, I can see by the up/down vote on my post we are pretty evenly split with the usual detractors taking an opposite position to what I'm stating. that's cool. I will go ahead and follow my own moral compass. Do unto others so fourth and so on.
Really guys? Stern v JJP? Why not just tone down the troll level on both sides. It's pinball, it's all good. I am into pinball to have fun, bashing someone else in the hobby is not fun to me. I have several Sterns, WPCs, EMs, even a few old gun games. Personally I spend most of my time on pinside in the EM arena. Much nicer atmosphere there. Perhaps it's the demographic & maturity level of the folks that dig EMs. Nobody but nobody tearing anyone down. Gottlieb fans, Williams fans, Bally fans, United, etc.. it's just about sharing their love of the hobby and helping each other out. Free parts shared, help and advice given. I venture into the more modern pin areas on occasion as well as I enjoy them too. I like to see what's new and different but it's just crazy trying to have a reasonable exchange here. Seems to be more static than substance. So which smartass will be the first to show their true colors and maturity and beat me up for calling it like it is and my call for peace...
I'm not happy about the wait but have resigned to the fact that there is nothing I can do about it. There is the positive aspect of maturing code but it's little comfort. This is likely my last NIB JJP due to pricing trend but it is certainly my last pre-order. I could have used the thousands I invested in the machine over 2 years ago. I had hoped that the delay on WoZ was due to the learning curve but it appears the curve is still not curving.. :/
Quoted from Aurich:
Yeah, definitely an old video.
I'm getting them but the one downside is going to be that they are so shiny, they will show every little defect on the subsurface. There is no way the cabinets will be baby smooth enough to make them look like they do on the backing. The upside, they should take a hit without running through the art.
Quoted from lowepg:
If there ARE problems- you'd best hope they DO find them in those games.
Think how nice it would have been had they found the light board design flaw in the WoZ prototypes...
One day I would like to know why JJP went with the serial light chain design. Such a basic design 101 violation introducing thousands of single points of failure in a critical system. One bad component or wire on one bulb and poof, the game is down. Couple the faulty design with flaky leds components and you have a real mess on your hands. TH has certainly benefited from the lessons learned on WoZ. Let's hope it's a solid performer. Heaven knows JJP has taken enough time to get it right.
Quoted from dtowndobe:
I'm not an electrical engineer or anything like that so I don't know a lot, but I can tell you it is very, very easy to isolate a bad light board in a WOZ, and simply "remove" it from the chain, leaving all other boards fully operational. Once you get a the new light board, you're back in business quickly. Neighbor has a WOZRR and it is extremely simply to replace a bad board, should you need to. YMMV
Granted, it's easy to diagnose and fix but this design is equivalent to the wiring in old Christmas light strings, one goes out and you are dead in the water. You can live with a single bulb out but the machine is useless until you fix what should be a minor inconvenience issue. JJP corrected it in TH thank goodness.
Quoted from Vyzer2:
I lived through umpteen woz codes since I first got the game. With each new update, the game got geometrically better. So in that respect, I'm sure Keith and team have much more to offer. I too am concerned that the code is not further along. But what goes into programing and the minds of these guys, one can only guess. There seems to be so many assets like Smaugs speech recordings and the 31 modes Keith has spoken of, so not worried the gameplay and rule set will pull it all together. It will once again be fun to own the game and watch it develope with each update.
I wsa very disappointed in WoZ when I was one of the first recipients and sold it a week later. HATED the callouts and gameplay rules it was sent with. Sold it within a week. I won't make that mistake again.
Quoted from Hazoff:
Its just a different type of pin than Stern, a widebody with that much open space will never be fast, but thats good for some people, need variety.
A widebody is every bit as fast as any standard pin, there's just more real estate to cover making it seem slow. If you want "faster" increase the pitch and crank up the flipper power.
Late midlife crisis coming on, thinking of getting a new motorcycle. I have a Hobbit SE with upgraded cabinet decals and the PF protector coming supposed to be in July. Who wants it for $9500? (shipping on you from NC or could possibly have it shipped to you direct from JJP if they'll play ball) Price I paid is delivered to NC.
Quoted from statsdoc:
That's funny, my midlife crisis is probably why I am buying pins.
Price reduced for quick sale, found my bike!! $9035 cash price. Best price you will find on an SE with RADicals and pf protector. No tax, possibly delivered NIB to your door in July, see my marketplace ad. I did all the waiting for you (perhaps why I am able to let it go, kind of soured on it because of the wait, never even seen one in person yet)
Well, that's sad. I rode all my adult life until my mid 30s and am very aware of the dangers. Thanks for the reminder though. My plan is to start off slow. This is a tripping / adventure bike, my preferred ride is the open highway or off-road away from other cars and intersections which is where the vast majority of motorcycle accidents occur.
Hobbit looks like it's sold.
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