Hobbit update: There is NO update. Start a new thread when there actually is some info (which "might" be in December at this rate if we're lucky).

We've already seen a teaser video of the Hobbit dashboard. That's not new as far as I know. So it sounds like there was almost nothing new revealed at TPF and hence, nothing of substance to talk about? I guess it's not surprising given how things went with WOZ but I really am a bit perplexed. It just seems like nobody is managing this project to a timeline. We've been told a whitewood video is coming for months now ... and it's still not ready?

Who told you this? There was speculation that he was contractually obligated but I have never heard Jack or anyone else from JJP state this. If the game isn't ready .. they aren't going to ship, period. I hate to point out recent history for you ... but the time between being shown the WOZ whitewood and the first games shipping was what, more than 2 years? I'm sure JJP will improve over the timeline that there was for WOZ ... but I still think it's pretty optimistic to think December is realistic at this point.

I don't want to sound mean but we are roughly 16 months into development and only 8 months from when games are supposed to start shipping. We are not "seeing" things move quickly at all. We hear there is a white wood that is in some degree playable but I honestly thought JJP would be further along than that by now.

Stern doesn't start asking for payment 18 months in advance, Stern has a history of consistently producing new titles on a predictable timeline, and Stern can safely be assumed to be on solid financial footing.

They stand to gain new customers and keep the ones they have. You do realize they still haven't sold out of all 1500 LE's (we have no idea if they're even close at this point.) That alone breaks Jack's prediction that Hobbit would sell out much faster than WOZ. You also realize there were 2 more pre-orders for sale on Pinside in the last day? I dropped my pre-order as well due to lack of confidence and a lack of transparency on JJP's behalf. If you don't want to show something ... then why can't you even CLEARLY state your progress?? Customers don't deserve at least that much? Because if I had been told from the beginning back in Dec 2012 that I would not be shown hardly anything on progress (much less on any sort of a regular basis) I never would have put my money down.

As was "Oh, and BTW, we're going to start offering another special edition game now too, the 75th Anvviersary Edition ...". Thanks for waiting 3 years!

So then you're confirming they aren't sold out yet? Or do you think they sold 40 in just the last 2 weeks? What other information do you want confirmed? And just because one distributor still has games available (PinballSales, 40 games?) doesn't mean that many more don't have games available too, right?

So apparently there is no video that can be taken/shown without revealing some significant pinball advancement that would somehow give Stern an advantage if they even just saw it 8 months before it's released to the public anyway? Okay.

Honestly, I have really only ever been interested in detailed updates such as ...
1) We are now on our 3rd and what we believe will be the final white wood prototype.
2) We expect to have cabinet art finalized this week and approved in 3-4 weeks (approx).
3) We have 80% of the playfield artwork done but we're waiting on the 3rd movie's assets to be released to us which should be next month.
4) We have worked out the final details of what the LE unique features will be and they are:
5) We've finalized cabinet hardware powder coating color and some of that production has even begun.
6) etc. etc.

I especially think just getting basic information like the LE specific features is WAY overdue. How can this information be deemed an advantage to Stern? I agree there needs to be some balance between revealing too much and too little ... but right now, it is WAY too far on the "too little" side.

I have not attacked anyone personally and I'm not looking to turn this into a "me" versus the "JJP can do no wrong" crowd. I guess I'm venting because Jack's logic and constant vagueness is so extremely frustrating. I DID have my money down on the game for 14 months (paid in full for that matter.) I did wait 2+ years on WOZ to get mine and I DID always defend and believe in JJP. Heck, I even DID want to get back in on Hobbit at some point .. but I continue to find Jack's evasiveness, vague answers and statements, and complete lack of transparency very frustrating (and frankly, illogical and bad business IMO.)

Right. That's why Stern has had 2 titles released since WOZ without incorporating an LCD ... or direct-printed cabinets ... or thicker playfields, or widebodies, or even adding silly toppers. You think Stern's focus is spying on and copying JJP?? I don't think so. If JJP is so concerned that Stern is watching their every move trying to copy them I think they're being a little over arrogant there.

I'm assuming TaTa is referring to me since he bought (traded for) my pre-order. I did pay in full on day one (and got the free shipping with it) but after a year I decided I didn't need one of the early games off the line (in fact, I'm not sure it's such a great idea.) I also wasn't happy with JJP's announcement of a 75th anniversary edition WOZ after I waited 2+ years to get the ECLE. Lastly, I did get a really nice collector quality AFM with color DMD. I'll likely get back in on Hobbit soon (really don't care where I am in the order) and I'm confident there are plenty left out there beyond the 40 pinballsales alone noted.

First, I believe JJP is very flexible and understanding when it comes to payments and they will work with you. I will say customer support is excellent at PinballSales! No need to worry there.

As far as "confirmed" shipping in November or December? Well, I'm not sure who in the world could promise that right now. We had a lot (I mean a LOT) of target dates for shipping missed on WOZ. Yes, I realize this is #2 and should go smoother ... but anyone confirming a shipping date at this point is overly optimistic IMO. Let's just call it December-ISH.

I like the pic of Joe playing .. but that's about it as far as new info, right? (which needs forensics experts to find new info in it, lol). The teaser video isn't showing anything new, is it? Or is the one clip of 'Extra Ball' new? I can't remember. Regardless, while I get they don't want to reveal much of the game right now, I'm still very surprised they can't/won't tell us new information about the game. Like, will there be a 'regular' edition? When will it be announced? What are the features of the LE? Will there be a topper .... will there be a wooden apron ... different artwork ... what? I hope we learn more before December.

Man, I just hope Smaug looks super cool (and detailed) and not cheezy. Fingers crossed. I'd probably sleep just fine from now until release if I could just see what this one toy figure will look like.

Smaug.jpg
I can kind of see Smaug in that new playfield pic looking like this drawing (head pointing down toward the flippers). You can also kind of make out the outline of a pile of Gold that Smaug is sitting on. I'm a little surprised if that area is drawn roughly to scale then Smaug might be a little smaller than I thought he would be. Additionally it looks like room between those drop targets and Smaug almost like there is room for the ball to go all the way around Smaug and the Gold? Else, it's just not drawn to scale.

Hey, you'll get no argument from me when referencing STLE like this, lol. I saw it as a huge disappointment but some folks seem to love it.

I agree but that's like saying a Ferrari looks much better than a Porsche. It may be true but the Porsche is still 100X better than all the other Ford Taurus's trying to compete with it.

Anyone hear Jack state one way or the other whether there will be a big Hobbit update this coming holiday weekend? If we're shown the full playfield artwork hopefully that will provide some more clues on gameplay ...

Err, no, lol. It's Father's Day on Sunday.

The Hobbit toys are what can/will make it or break it for me. Stern just revealed TWD ... and those toys look pretty darn cool!! Lots of detail in them. The overall art package/look from Stern is killer. I'm curious what impact it might have on Hobbit sales and if anyone is considering jumping ship on Hobbit and getting a TWD?

Will JJP release a big Hobbit update soon to counter TWD's reveal? I hope so!

Oh boy ... stirring the pot again ...

PinballToys.jpg

I will say that TWD not having an LCD was a disappointment and that might hurt their sales mildly. Their MSRP is $8595 but I'm hearing $7400-$7500 is what you can get it for. Still ... I would agree that Hobbit still might be more bang for your buck .. but I need to see a lot more before being certain.

I think it was close to 350 lbs. boxed?

Maybe 330-340 lbs. on its' own?

Okay ... based on others immediate reactions, I know I'm not alone. But ... I'll even take the most positive attitude I can looking at these and say they look "okay" at BEST. Given the price tag ... I would hope for much better than okay. If you weren't sure what to expect with Smaug before, I suggest lowering your expectations so you won't be disappointed.

I'm actually surprised these even passed the studio's approval process.

I know there is a really nice guy behind the creation of these figures. But I wish JJP would use him where his skillset is strongest. Doing things like powdercoating and creating non-character decorations (like walls and other inanimate objects.) Because detailed character creation is not his strongest skill IMO.

Pinchroma, I don't suppose you'll stop your attacks on me simply because I stated I didn't think the toys in WOZ were well done at all? Apparently I'm not the only who doesn't think his art is always great.

And where are Panzerfreak, Spfxted, Beelzeboob, Gravitard, Txstargazer3, DaveH, etc. ? I'm curious what their opinions are on these?

I agree the dragon is the most important. However, you do know it's the same person making Smaug, right? Consider all of the character toys/sculptures this person has made. The wicked witch in WOZ. Toto for WOZ. These 4 popup heads. How does one go from doing work like these to creating some truely "kick ass" and "nailing it" on something as complex as Smaug? I just don't think sculpting characters in particular is his talent. Aside from just "not looking right", the characters have blank looks/expression, the colors do not pop at all, and the detail is lacking. No fun factor in these.

I was pleading with JJP on the Google forumn starting 2 years ago when Hobbit was announced to use someone else for creating the character toys in Hobbit. I suggested (strongly) to use the guys at Gentle Giant. Their custom figures are amazing.

You just slammed me (to put it mildly) on the other Hobbit thread for "insulting Matt", literally no more than a few days ago. Now you're criticizing his work and threatening to possibly not go forward with your order? Okay. At least you're being honest now I guess.

And just how fast do you think they could get a new artist to do 4 of these characters (much less capable of creating thousands of copies for all games AND at a price they can live with), and get the artwork approved by the studio? They've had almost 2 years up to this point to reveal these.

If only they had looked for feeback earlier ...

But he had a couple of years of time to do that ... and in the end, they scrapped it altogether. I don't think they can just scrap 4 pop-up characters at this point.

Please show me any comment I made that was any more rude or condescending than the dozens of others posts ABOVE that provided feedback on his work.

I think the troll still looks nicer with more detail and an actual expression on his face. Heck, show me these 4 pop-ups in a closeup like the troll. And the excuses that "oh, these pop up so fast" and "if you mod them with glowing eyes .." seems a bit strange to me to dismiss the quality of the work simply because it won't be seen much or can be hidden or dressed up with lit eyes (or put in a phone booth a'la the witch in WOZ??)

I think people's biggest concern right now is that the same artist will be doing Smaug and if JJP is willing to let this quality of work go by, what will Smaug look like?

I don't think people would prefer decals. I think they would prefer a more experienced artist when creating characters in particular. Getting emotion in a character's face/expression is an art form all its own. Perhaps JJP will consider trying someone else for future games? I know there are likely a dozen other parts of a game Matt's talents could be utilized for. I know a lot of people were hoping to see more 3D landscape pieces to decorate the playfield (like mountains for example) and I know Matt is good at making stuff like that.

Like was done for the trees on WOZ? Didn't happen. I saw one person who did it (and it took them a long time.) The problem with these pieces is that they are solid pieces and drilling is a very tricky thing that most people will not dare attempt on their own (not a simple mod at all.)

I'm sorry I did not know how to say it any nicer. I know Matt has worked with materials and modeling for a long time and he has many talents. However, I have never seen a good example of a character (whose face/expression you could see) that made me say WOW! Let's hope Smaug is it.

PS - Stern seems to have managed just fine with the reputable artist they just found to make the toys in TWD (and those zombie heads appear to be roughly the same size as these bash toys?)

Looking at the Warg more ... it looks like his snout would almost sit flush with the playfield? I wonder if that could possibly cause some airballs?

Is it possible to even just put a coat of clear lacquer or something on these toys? They don't have a shine/polish to them at all which leaves the colors looking really flat (and reduces detail). I don't think they'll reflect the light from the game very nicely (nor did the trees or State Fair balloon for that matter.) Just curious.

And gee, based on your response to these 4 pop-ups I'm guessing you'll think Smaug was done by Michelangelo no matter what.

At this point I will absolutely not be buying a Hobbit (NIB anyway). The direct-print cabinet was the nicest "quality" feature of WOZ that I loved and that seems to be gone now (most of the toys were a major letdown). An LCD is nice ... but great looking and fun toys are better. Especially when you're paying 8K+ for a game.

I'm very relaxed! Laughing and drinking wine.

Woah .. you're all over the place on this one. Yes, I traded my original Hobbit pre-order to TaTa. I later put a down payment back down .... only to yank it a month+ ago because of the complete lack of game details. Now I'm actually rather glad I got the refund.

Your crystal ball (when it's working) is telling you what to shoot at on the playfield? Huh?

Yes, a variety of shots, flow, and other features are very nice in a game too! But when your primary toys in the game are unrecognizable, ugly, and boring ... that's not fun. And why are you talking about "stationary" toys?? Who said anything about stationary? Stern has tons of great examples of detailed toys interacting on the playfield. One of my personal favorites is the pirate ship on POTC. Not sure where you're going with this one. In your opinion it's okay that pop-ups look ridiculous because ... well, they "pop up"? Okay, to each his own.

Wow, we're just getting the full JJP staff on here tonight to put out this fire, aren't we? (at least 5 including the CEO himself ??) The company that just loves honest feedback, huh? It is constructive feedback. Do something with it instead of telling customers the parts are tiny and meaningless anyway. People see the 2" zombie heads Stern is showing off (which, by the way, are in the far back right corner of the game) and wonder why similar quality art is not in the actual game toys that JJP is showing. Was the witch just as meangingless in WOZ and that's why that toy was approved? A very clear way to improve your product has become apparent ... how long JJP remains in denial is up to them.

Honest to God ... if only there some mature employees at JJP who could handle criticism they might actually have had a future.

Because that quality of art cant be produced in a different material like the one Matt prefers? Is that your point?

I believe that was Dannunz's comment (see below) and it seemed to clearly be sarcasm (hence the liar emoticon). I think you can pretty much guarantee Hobbit will be at Expo.

I see everyone else on Pinside has stated their opinion on these pop-ups and we're left with the usual crew of JJP pumpers (and employees for that matter) repeating over and over that "these are no big deal", "I think they look okay", "they're so small who cares", and my personal favorite "you need to see them in context".

Next "update" please ...

You think there is nobody outside of JJP who knows how to service a game including myself? I live in MI. We're a dime a dozen here.

Burnt bridges? I'm not looking for a job from JJP (or anything else) and I do believe 85%+ of WOZ is quality. My comments regarding negative personal opinions about some aspects of their games (and business practices) were expressed for the most part in a perfectly polite manner. And nobody ever points out the numerous positive comments I've given certain other aspects of the game. They just immediately swarm negative feedback and try to attack the poster personally. In this thread they had no single person to attack (albeit I still took the brunt of their attacks) and instead brought in as many employees as possible to stop people posting negative feedback in general. It's just ridiculous how negative opinions get attacked and ridiculed on here (especially by actual employees of JJP .. that's not right.)

It's spelled "con-de-scend-ing" Alex.

WS.jpg

I think the majority of the 3rd films content would be in the code / video clips on the LCD (so that can easily be left out). Possibly they could also have an early version of the playfield art that only contained content up until the 2nd film. So I doubt there are any toys directly from the 3rd film (and if one of the toys is the rumored 5" LCD then they can also leave out 3rd film content there too.) Of course, that's assuming that they're using 3rd film content in the game that won't be authorized to be shown by the date of reveal (such as content that is released for movie trailers/previews.)

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Plenty. Of course, that may change once they actually show a working game (along with Smaug.) I'd be surprised if they sell all 1500 quickly but I would think sales will certainly pick up a little after Expo.

That's assuming you actually thought WOZ looked great "as a package".

I was hoping Hobbit would look much better (and it may) ...

It really is amazing that you can find time to do anything for JJP. I mean ... to be able to monitor Pinside 24/7 and immediately jump on anyone who has the slightest negative thing to say about JJP. Impressive.

There have been hundreds of positive posts (from Goronic, Panzer, etc.) repeating the same things over and over and I haven't jumped on their every post.

So no ... no, it can't be said of me.

You missed this one Pinchroma. Can you comment on whether these flat plastic axes are the final pieces that will be in the game?

I don't understand why you always feel the need to turn the forum into an elementary school playground. And then if I actually respond to your childish attacks I'm the troll.

If others can post their same opinions over and over then I guess I will too.

You have repeated this same point over and over and over again to me. I have never seen a person so in love with metal rails. Are you under the impression that metail rails are somehow a luxury item over molded plastic ones? I thought many folks preferred the look of the plastic since you can see through them? Is it really some sort of massive cost savings that Stern is getting there?

I'm VERY confident that 90% of all thumbs downs against me are coming from the same 7 or so folks who literally thumbs down me on every thread I post. I'm interested in talking about games ... you're interested in bashing me personally and trying to discredit me.

Adding mods to a game is fun. But having to replace parts on an 8k game because they look (and are) too cheap is not.

Uh huh. Right. So using this thread as an example ... First is Aurich's reaction to the pop-up toys. Then immediately after his post was my own (both, in full). Clearly, Aurich (no offense Aurich) has several suggestions on improving these and clearly my post was hate filled with a "this sucks" tone to it.

Of course it is and of course it does. Just baffling. It has nothing to do with Jack's (and now all of JJP's) fixation and tirade on me personally as being the only person on Earth who has some negative opinions for you.

If nobody listens to me then why do you (and several others from JJP) feel the need to attack me and my every post? Odd.

I don't feel singled out by anyone more than you.

The things I wonder about are more along the lines of ... why do JJP employees like you feel the need to stalk Pinside 24/7 and attack users personally when they have an opinion that is anything other then positive?? Why were 5 (or more??) JJP employees on Pinside the evening of a new release of Hobbit info waiting to respond to a wave of criticisim?? Why is JJP afraid to let people freely express their opinions without jumping in to try and stop it if it's negative?? Doesn't JJP have their own Google forum for "open" discussion on their games where Jack can (and does) directly moderate how discussions go??

Yup, that sounds just like the Kool Aid they want you drinking. If they cared about feedback they would allow people to express it freely.

I guess Stern and every other new manufacturer out there just don't care about feedback.

If it's a "premium option" over molded plastic ones ... then why are you showing the feature listing of a "Pro" model which is considered the lowest model Stern sells, no?

I honestly have no idea. I've never noticed "metal rails" or plastic being touted. I've never thought of metal rails as being a premium option (albeit, powdercoating them as was done on WOZ seemed like a real step up), just whatever makes the most sense for a given game. Are they really that much more expensive?

And will the rails on Hobbit be powdercoated?

What color?

I think part of the difference includes some very poor business decisions on JJP's behalf to build all their own custom hardware/platform? (among other poor decisions.) That had to consume a lot of time and resources.

I'm pretty sure it took JJP two and a half years (or so) to ship the very first game? So it would certainly seem DP is well ahead of that to say the least.

lol ... someone sure is a little defensive, huh? The unbelievable response to TBL (and DP) got ya down?

Right .. because everyone knows the most difficult and time consuming part of building a pinball machine is the code.

I thought we had heard about several revisions of the I/O board (or some custom board) over the course of the first year of WOZ development? If this was done so quickly then perhaps you can better explain what the most time consuming difference was with WOZ development to explain the nearly 1.5 years more it took JJP to show a lit prototype? Something we still haven't seen from JJP's 2nd game Hobbit after nearly 2 years now, right?

And thank goodness the studio for TBL did not demand ugly revisions to toys/artwork.

I'm on a roll again tonight ..

Umm, so how long did it take to see a fully-lit complete prototype of WOZ (minus code)??

2 different products?? Really?? You don't see any slight similarities there, huh?? And you don't understand the question I'm asking? I'm asking .. what challenges did JJP face that caused them to take SO much more time to show a lit, powered-on prototype? It has been less than a year since DP announced TBL. I would just like to understand why it appears to have taken JJP so much longer.

Hmm, I thought JJP announced WOZ in January of 2011? But Expo in 2012 was when they revealed a fully-built, powered-on WOZ? So it was 22 months (not quite 2 years) from announcement to reveal, no? So sure, 22 months compared to a little over 11 months is "about the same". And has it not been 22 months again since the announcement of Hobbit and we still have not seen a complete prototype? Those sound like the facts to me. I'm not sure what you're trying to spin.

Comparing one pinball manufacturing startup building their first game to ANOTHER pinball manufacturing startup who just built their first game is "comparing apples to oranges"?!??

Are you referring to the white wood flipping?? That was Oct. 2011. With no artwork or final toys (not even the witch or cyrstal ball??) Yeeaaah .... no, that doesn't count IMO. A half-baked game is not a prototype. We did not see a complete game with final toys and artwork until much later (much later than Feb 2012, you're wrong.) And you do realize expo is in October, right??

You can keep spinning this and trying to make me out to be the one who is delusional, but I think you're actually making yourself look bad at this point.

lol. I know you can't see this Pinchy, but if anyone wants to know who the "idiot" is then go research when the public first saw a fully assembled WOZ prototype. It was not February of 2012.

Yes. He sure is!

L-O-L!!!! I needed that. I'm pretty sure that's been said from day one. Too funny.

The forum for folks who have purchased Hobbit and can only say praise for it (despite hardly seeing anything) is on the Google forum. This is supposed to be open discussion with no bias. Oddly enough, I'm the only one who doesn't need to resort to personal attacks or bullying.

Umm, he called me the idiot. Should I have put that in quotes for you?? Done.

Whoa, GO Aurich!

Very cool JP! Thumbs up especially on your TBL work!

Seriously?? Again with the personal attacks and gangpiling on me? All the personal attacks on me and childish name calling (and camel toe pictures??) ... that's not embarrassing. But me expressing some negative opinions in a respectful way, that's embarrassing "to the community"? The majority of my posts last night were simply correcting Pinchroma who stated that a full WOZ prototype had been produced and shown in just 13 months from first announcement (comparing it to DP's time taken to produce a TBL prototype.) That's just not true.

All this secrecy and hints of something miraculous about to be revealed. I hope Hobbit can live up to all of this hype. We've seen the playfield design and art. We've seen the cabinet design/art. We've seen the pop-up toys. We've heard that Smaug will interact with the ball in 2 different ways. We've even heard about a 5" lcd rumored to be on the playfield. Now, granted we have not been shown all of these things put together in a single game for some reason ... but what other things could be revealed that will really blow people's minds? I'm sure the game will look and sound nice all put together ... but with all the secrecy it sure seems like there must be some really big surprise coming.

Maybe some incredibly detailed Smaug toy? Possibly (but I suspect some will say they love Smaug and some will say it's just okay.) So is there some other incredible toy on the pf that we just haven't heard a thing about? Possibly. Is it some incredible new light show on the pf? Given the far fewer inserts I wouldn't think so but maybe. Could there be some awesome topper on the game and be interactive? I doubt it personally but maybe.

So what do folks think is going to be the real WOW surprise for them when the game is revealed? The ruleset? A detailed Smaug? A 5" lcd toy on the pf? A toy we know nothing about (like a hidden sub playfield with a camera showing it only on the LCD?) Maybe the game screen on the main LCD itself?

And Skit-B ... and Multimorphic .. and Quetzal Pinball ... and Heighway Pinball .. and Planetary Pinball ... and Spooky Pinball.

^ This is you guys derailing the conversation (again) to make this another attack on me.

I didn't criticize the secrecy. That was txstargazers labeling of it. I asked an honest question. The hype machine seems in full effect so there must be amazing surprises in store, no? I only asked what folks thought it could be.

Okay, going from Dannunz's post that there are lots of things (plural) to be shown/disclosed I considered the areas where there are possibilities for surprises along the lines of "never done before" that he described ...
1) A sub playfield which is only viewable on the LCD via a camera (was requested by many early on in the Google forum). Would be a surprise for sure.
2) A new GI lighting system? Or unique lighting effects not incorporated in a pin before?
3) A video mode? Doubtful but it would be a first on an LCD I guess.
4) An interactive lit apron (this one wouldn't be much of a surprise since people have been speculating about it for so long ... but it would certainly be nice to confirm this one and I think it would be a first in pinball?)
5) Some sort of new intricate topper? Doubtful since Jack doesn't seem to be a fan of them.
6) Something in the game rules or the way you approach the game that is very unique?

Where else could there be a surprise hiding?

I'm already expecting a 5" lcd (or so) being integrated on the pf somehow (and that doesn't seem like a "first" since we had the crystal ball in WOZ).

I'm already expecting Smaug to interact with the ball in 2 different ways (thinking the tail acting as some sort of diverter.) So the only surprise here will be how incredible Smaug looks.

That incredible, huh? I would have thought a playable sub-playfield only viewable on the lcd was innovative (or using a camera period.) I was trying to think of locations on the pf (and entire game) where something could still physically fit that was never apparent from just looking at the pf itself, hence my thoughts above.

There could be features like player controlled diverters. There could be a plethora of magnets (used in new ways?) that is not obvious just looking at the playfield itself (perhaps Smaug himself has several?) that we were shown. There could be a non-magnetic (porcelain) type ball used in the game in a new way? But yeah ... I'm intrigued now.

Oh, and I also suggested several times (on the Google forum) very early on to use fiberoptic lighting (that would be a first I believe) such as lighting a shimmering pile of Gold under Smaug.

For what purpose (that would make more sense than showing the video on the main lcd?)

Just brainstorming ... but for that to happen I would think JJP would need to announce their third title within 6 months of delivering Hobbit #1 (announce #3 around 07/01/15), and shipping games to customers within 6 months from that (end of year, approx. 12/2015). In order for that to happen JJP will need to have 2 complete manufacturing lines running (and obviously employed) by then. Otherwise, JJP would need to create all 1500 THLE's in just 12 months and immediately switch over the line to build title #3. And all of this is assuming JJP can become profitable by only building 1500 LE Hobbits (no other edition) and move on to title #3. So just logically speaking ... either JJP needs to significantly increase their production rate on 1 line, or they need to create a 2nd manufacturing line. I wouldn't think you could confidently expand to 2 lines unless the assembly of TH on the first line was sufficiently backlogged to be building games for another 6 months minimum after the 2nd line (building game #3) begins.
I'm very curious what numbers they are predicting in order to generate their business plan for the next 18 months. I have my own guesstimations but I'm curious how many think they'll be building 2 games simultaneously in 2015?

You're stating the obvious only after the fact and only as it stands today at this moment (as noted by your comment "it seems ...".) Communication from JJP is not their strong point. I never saw any official announcement from JJP that said we will not announce title #3 until we can start delivering the games (like Stern.) How do you know Pat won't reveal something at Expo? And yes, it's tough to start taking pre-orders when you don't want to reveal the theme of the game yet (but again, how do you know that won't happen several months prior to them shipping games?) You're only speculating. Heck, when I originally ordered Hobbit on day 1 of the announcement I made the poor assumption that info would be released in the same manner as WOZ. There was no official announcement "we will be revealing far less information". If there was, I wouldn't have pre-ordered. It was only after many months had gone by and very little information was given that it became apparent JJP was not going to throw us a bone.

An "initial deposit" and then waiting X number of months (years?) for your game is not a prepayment?

In that case you can also claim that WOZ and TH never had a pre-payment plan either. Nobody has ever lost their deposit (or even incurred a penalty) by not making a payment by the recommended dates and people were frequently told to just make payments when they were comfortable or to just make the final payment when the game was ready (which many/most did.) It has really only ever been the initial deposit to reserve your game that was important.

What the heck are you talking about? How was I being provocative? I was stating the facts. Nothing has changed about JJP's pre-payment/deposit model. Period. I don't care what you want to call it and I'm certainly not saying there is ANYTHING wrong with how they do ordering. Lots of folks seem to really like it. But Hensbrooker stated that the model had already changed and I'm stating it hasn't. I'm very confident you can put down the initial deposit on a TH TODAY (go for it) and not pay another dime until your game is ready to ship. Many folks did the same on WOZ. I even recall when JJP was getting close to shipping the first game that Jack mentioned on the Google forum that there were many folks who needed to get caught up on payments if they wanted to receive their games in order and that many had never made a payment beyond the initial deposit.

Yep, things may very well change with JJP #3, I have no idea and don't really care. But nothing has changed at this point.

? I care about pinball, yes. I care about the future of pinball, yes. I enjoy keeping up with the latest in pinball and discussing the good and the bad. But I don't care what JJP decides as far as payment plan on game #3. I was only correcting Hensbrooker.

I do not post to JJP threads exclusively by any means and you guys gloss over the many positive things I've stated about JJP/games only to attack and try to discredit any negative opinion I have.

I also try very hard to not attack others personally and I refrain from giving anyone an automatic thumbs down on their every post just because I don't like them or their opinion(s).

Not that it's not an interesting idea but I'm pretty confident this idea (and dozens of variations using a camera) were discussed in detail on the Google forum back around January 2013. Yes, a ton can be done with a camera (although I think this particular idea may raise privacy concerns.)

It has been almost 2 YEARS with no information about a 'regular' edition or what features the LE version will have differently and you're just now stating that it's weird you have to wait another week to hear the details at Expo?? You've waited this long, what's another week?

And this is absolutely nothing new from JJP. It was frequently the same case during WOZ development that distributors would get new details and leak them before we ever got an official announcement from JJP. Sorry, but it's true.

I only disagree with this because I don't think JJP will want to reveal Pat's game before May/June at the earliest! So, for right now the only decision to be made (if you can only afford one new game right now, like most) is whether to buy TWD, TBL, or Hobbit. Pat's game will only negatively impact Hobbit sales so it only makes sense to not reveal it for another 6 months+.