I was speaking of features, not code.

As Stern shows....the code comes later........

I'm thinking they should just adopt the Stern model, put it out there, good or bad, buy it or not, but I'm guessing that JJP won't do that ultimately. They care too much about what buyers think

Yep, you can bet Pat's first game back is going to be EPIC After all the cost cutting with Stern and inability to do old school design and mechs, this one is going to be a reminder for people as to who the real King is!

That playfield looks great!

321081.jpg

are you going to pre order this one?

I hope so, it will depend on theme for me. No matter how good a designer may be theme is very important. I really hopes its a darker style and not rainbows and unicorns or something like that. He has had some real stinkers in the past. Time will tell.

The worg 'troll' toy seems to be a bit too large and it is cutting off his bottom jaw from view - or is that just me?

Looks like all their jaws are a little hidden but they look cool.

Yeah... I'll let you stew a bit on that comparison again.

Nothing to stew on.

Like I said...the days of JJP changing the mechanics of the game due to feedback are over the day the start selling them upon announcement.

Not a controversial statement.

So far it still looks slow and the shots way too long. I don't see how this can be fixed with code. Aesthetically it looks phenomenal! But the rest is just...meh

I have put a few games on it. I am not impressed either. The new playfield looks awesome though. I am a lousy pinball player and I was able to hit every shot in a few minutes. It seems to get old quick. You can't compare it to WOZ. The little screen in the corner does nothing for the game play. I wouldn't buy it. But that is just my opinion.

i'm sure this isn't the finished machine, just like all the changes done since chicago. things are moving along better then i thought and am looking forward to playing this when finally complete.

Why bother speculating on gameplay from videos or quick games on a still unfinished game, especially at expos and the like. TWD was almost entirely negative upon the first plays of the pro and really almost every new release has more negative than positive, just human nature I guess but my TWDLE is amazing and I have a feeling in the right setting with proper pitch and dialed in the final game will play well.

It's taken from PF level. From a players perspective you can see more.

What's happening with the sling axes?
Presently, I'm not a fan.

Opinions?

Supposedly they are going to be smaller...how detailed and what material they will be made of is anyone's guess.

The next redesign of the hobbit they should remove the third flipper. I know this has been brought up a bunch in the past and after viewing the latest video it is starting to bother me even more! Whats the point of the third flipper???

I been saying the same thing myself. Everyone keeps claiming they are going to add code to make it important and I guess time will tell.

I would recommend asking Keith if it has a particular purpose. For those are not involved with the design it does not appear to have a specific purpose yet, but with code it could be very important or we could simply be missing something.
WOZ initially was this way, but I assure you the upper flipper is now a big part of the game for a good player.

I read that it is used for quick shots after the ball leaves the pops or loops to it...such as a captive ball hit.

I would assume then that means some kind of timed shot payoff.

Video looks good:

Led is awesome...
Pop up: awesome
Drops: awesome
Speed: looks pretty damn fast to me?! Not sure what the concerns about it were based on...

Still not sold on the book/led
And...
Just can't love that dragon toy

That white orc looks awful haha. Rest of the pop ups look fine to me though. I can't wait to bash them.

Looks a lot better now! I was wrong, I am seeing a lot of effort going into those changes.

I always liked the old playfield art but I get it. The new one has more colour and action and it will definitely draw more players to the game than the old one. The colums are a great addition even now with that strange brownish look (they're probably gonna change the colour, right?). The gold pieces have the right size and and of course the wireframes over the VUKs were the right way to go. There are gonna be decals along the side of the pin I suppose and once the ramp gates with lighting are installed the writing on the ramps might look better, too. (Not sure why they didn't put symbols on there. Hour glass or book, padlock and some runes would be the obvious design choice).

Still problematic: Smaug. With the mountain gone the 180 spin is gone. So why not scrap the svivelling mechanism altogether? It seems unnecessary. The sideways motion doesn't add much over a static head sculpt (aside from costs and weight, obviously).
But then again, I get it. Only the talking seems not to be enough for this toy. Everyone - including Jack - wants Smaug to do more than that. After all, this is a (the?) main feature of the game. And with the "tail" diverter gone there is even less left of the original concept. So of course they will keep the sideways movement. It's a bit lame, but what else can you do.
Of course, if Smaug didn't have to be designed to spin in the first place there'd be a good chance they could have fit a (partial) body sculpt in that area (looking like Smaug coming out of his cave or sleeping and rising up or something like that) instead of a chopped off head. Well, too late for that now.
The Smaug concept is broken. The original idea didn't work out and what's going to be in the game is not what anybody wanted, it's what JJP is stuck with. It's not particularly awful but it's not great either. It's another toy, nothing special.

The book. Who cares? I don't see the need for another display when you're using a huge screen but whatever. If you want to have a book in your game it makes sense to do it this way because you're gonna be able to actually turn pages. But at it's current position it's blocking the view on the barrel underneith, that's just weird. I guess the barrel needs to go. But even then the book doesn't integrate well with the rest of the table.

A lot of things changed which make me think TH is gonna be ok but I am still not impressed. The theme is great but what I see on the table is not all that exciting.

I agree with both of these points.

The broken concept of Smaug is the main reason I cancelled my order. It's a poor sculpt and even worse mechanics. A rotating Smaug marionette doll head is just lame in every way. I agree that something more dragon-like should've been attempted (dragon's don't spin their heads around like Howdy Doody; they twist their necks more like snakes, so just leave off the motion if you can't do it right, I say). But it is what it is at this point, and they are trying to dress it up as best they can with gold paint and what-not. As bad as the Expo Rock-head Smaug was, I actually think I prefer it to this painted gold Smaug.

For WOZ, the crystal ball is an exceeding cool design. Not only do you have an extra tiny display, which is not in any way distracting, it's in the flipper view, so you don't have to look up. It's also like a personal player monitor, because it's difficult for anyone but the player to see with the small viewing angle. For Hobbit, the "book" is just a smaller monitor directly under a bigger monitor, sort of looks added on and distracting. I guess it depends how it's used in gameplay, but that's my first reaction to it.

The Smaug toy fail was the deal-breaker for me, but if everything else is done superbly and gameplay draws me in then I certainly won't rule out a Hobbit eventually. And I honestly still can't wait to play it this weekend. I initially ordered it because of my love for the book as a kid, not to mention the awesome 80's cartoon. It's a theme I love, and maybe that's why I'm slightly overly critical of it (full disclosure).

Beyond all of that is my biggest fear: the kinetics of the game. No shots really look all that appealing, other than shooting the moving drop targets. The center ramps are just awful kinetically. When I watch gameplay video and see the U-turns constantly rattling back down, and center shot after center shot... Just doesn't look fun, I'm sorry. I feel Hobbit may suffer from lack of a Sweet Shot. Why is Balcer so opposed to placing in the sweet shot of a ramp? Especially a well-placed and paced left ramp shot, for right-handed players to get that release of a full power ramp shot right in the wheelhouse. The center ramps, perfectly symmetrical, look like something which was drawn in and looked cool in CAD but which unfortunately don't translate to great gameplay.

A nameless friend of mine text me a short, disappointing text from IAAPA yesterday:
"Played Hobbit
Horrible"

That's what I'm worried about more than the toys gone wrong. The software will be superb. Artwork looks 1000x better now. Toys are toys, and they'll grow on you, or you can ignore them. But the kinetics of great pinball gameplay can't be painted back in or added on or updated. And that's the main thing I'm worried about. The layout just doesn't look fun to me. I hope I'm wrong, though.

I really really really really really hope that is going to happen.

It might just be the viewing angle? Most people wont be playing with their head laying on the playfield.

I really love my WOZ... But I have to disagree with this statement. The mini playfield hides balls coming to the 3rd flipper (I'm assuming that's the one you're talking about??!), making it very tough to time. Nearly impossible actually, especially in multiball.

I can sometimes get a good Witch bash from it, and on RARE occasions I get a flukey crystal ball shot, but more often than not it feels like a flail shot.

The Hobbit 3rd flipper however may be best implimented for a timed roving drop target hit. With that many targets it's kind of silly to assert (at this point in the code) that the flipper is useless.

If the feed to the flipper is visible, and reliable, then it could be used for several useful purposes.

Perhaps the point here is, Is there a shot that CAN'T be made from the bottom flippers, that you MUST use the 3rd flipper for (a la Warp Ramp, or Gem Shot... Although I often get a lucky bounce in to the Gem shot from a lower flipper post ricochet.). A ramp with a sideways entrance is the obvious use of a side mounted flipper. Don't see that in this design, but it doesn't mean the flipper is useless.

Seeker939 and Mechslave,

Those comments about the game and Smaug are a little more harsh then what I would say but I tend to agree. The Smaug toy is a disappointment to me as it doesn't interact with the ball. As more and more details about TH were released I always thought "ok, it doesn't appear to have as much going on as WOZ but Smaug is going to be extremely interactive". Interactive how? Maybe a motorized drop target bank AFM style in front of the toy with a shot behind it or a moving Smaug head that lowers into a mini playfield below the main playfield. What was released though is a bummer in my opinion considering the price tag of the game.

I understand that TH weighs more then WOZ but that doesn't mean its automatically better then WOZ. I find WOZ's two mini playfields, crystal ball area, and witch area far more interesting then drop targets as they are unique and offer unique rules. Take the spinning house area for example. The "rainbow" stand-up targets need to be hit to enable the mini playfield, the mini playfield then has a loop shot while a motorized house is spinning, hit the shot enough times and a magnet grabs the ball upon exit and oh yeah feet then pop out of the house. How can a bank of drop targets be more interesting and fun then that? I think that would be fine had Smaug been far more Interactive but that is not the case. If it was up to me the game would have the motorized target bank in front of Smaug (he still wouldn't be hit so no issues with the license there), a canon type toy representing the windlance toy where the right drop target bank is, two of the four pop ups being trap doors, and a mini playfield in the upper right area that features the hidden door of Erebor. If toys and features like that were in the game I could see the layout being as interesting as WOZ.

My rants done, haha. I'm a big JJP supporter but can't help to feel disappointed about this game. I know I need to play it to give it a proper opinion and will do so once one is on location. In the end I think that Keith will make TH fun due his brilliant ability to create epic and interesting rulesets. However, I just think that TH lacks the chaos, randomness, and uniqueness in its features that JJP did so well with WOZ. Hopefully that will return with Pats game.

Am I the only one that dislikes the LCD. Big screen in backbox and small screen inside playfield feels like overkill and this new addition blocks off the bumper barrel figures. People will spend more time starring at screens than playing pinball all together.

I'd prefer the book be inset in the apron I guess than up there.

I've accepted that Smaug will be a huge let down from what I expected. Especially after the hype along the way.

I think we'll keep hearing about gameplay being clunky and slow, that was expected. Drop targets give a clunky feel by nature I would think.

I don't really understand what is so great about Drop Targets, unless dropping them opens a new possibility. IE drop a bank of targets to access a new orbit, or drop a set of inline targets to access a saucer or magnet. MET Drops are great. TWD Woodbury Drop is cool.

If the drop targets are simply targets... What's the point?? They may as well simply be StandUps, and save 80 lbs of hardware, and 11 complicated mechanical devices!

I was very intrigued with the mechanical control of the drops, allowing for roving targets etc... But this same result is easily achieved with lights, as it has been for 30 plus years. Even if Drops create a two stage target, The Drop and the standup behind it, that's still easily don't with lighting.

I'm in on the Hobbit, and I'm super stoked about the new design... I'm just curious what is so fantastic about this multitude of Drop Targets??! Can anybody shed some light on this for me?

Have no fear Keith and Ted are here

I'm going to put my head on the chopping block and back up what DarkWizard said. (Cue James Taylor singing "You've Got A Friend".) I'm also a fan of the original playfield. It looked like a piece of art. The new one looks like they took the old one and just plopped a big ole' dragon in the middle. Yes, I know there are other changes, and those are fine. I just really loved the image of the dragon hovering over the mountain. I also like the red Smaug better. So, in short: Since I now have the side art of the SE staring me in the face from the playfield, I'm going to avoid all the redundancy (and the gold dragon) and stick with my LE.

Thanks for snapping me back to reality, DarkWizard!!!

I'm totally with you on that. I can't wait to get my machine and watch it evolve. I have ZERO concerns about the fact that it will end up being a monster machine. I know the code will be other worldly... Am just talking about the mechanics of the drops, and what, if any, benefit they provide.

If they are simply targets... Why make them more complicated than they need to be? Therefor making them heavier, clunkier, and more prone to malfunction than a simple standup with a RGB insert??

I'm in the minority too that liked the old playfield better. My wife is casually into this stuff at best, and when we walked up to TH at expo, she commented about how cool the panoramic view was with the mountain and the dragon. Oh well. Maybe the new playfield will look better to me once integrated with all the plastics, etc.

Anyway, to your point about the redundancy, I hear you, but to me the biggest differentiation between the models is the trim color. Assuming your game is in a row, you can't really see the cabinet much. Also, you can get the red Smaug on the SE. So this then comes down to which trim looks better, as this will be seen from the player perspective. I don't know the answer to this though.

Alex has said the SE trim looks awesome, and from the one comparison picture it does look better than the LE bronze. I'm hoping to see more comparable pictures before I have to choose, because to me, this is the only thing that really makes a difference between the models.

Yeah...but I think the bronze integrates into the color scheme of the rest of the machine better. In the same way that I thought there was too much red in the ruby red WOZ, I think there's just too much gold in the Smaug edition.

It's a different feel when you make a target drop instead of switching on a light. The way it's done on TH it'll be more satisfying to hit.
Also moving the target seems more interesting with the drops. Having a blinking light move from stand up to stand up would work, but isn't it more appealing to have the active target pop up and the incatives drop?

You are right though, you can do the same things with stand ups + lights you can do with drop targets. If it's both the same to you the only places on TH it's gotta be drops is in front of the Smaug VUK shot.

Edit: I want to add, I don't have much love for the target overkill. But the drop target/stand-up target combination clearly is the better one of two design choices. Gotta have at least SOME physical response from the "toys" in the game.

They're physical and pinball is a physical game. I'm not saying that adding 15 of them makes the game awesome. I also agree that when they are used in other configurations (like inline drops) is where they really shine. But to say that dropping physical targets is no better than lighting a playfield insert I don't get. It doesn't look like any of these are set where you can sweep the bank, but hitting one shot that sweeps down 3-5 drops at once is always cool and can't be replicated with stand-ups and inserts.

It remains to be seen if the individually controlled drops create an experience that feels any different than usual drops. Regardless, are these drops going to qualify for Panzer's "toy" requirement? Likely not. We'll have to wait and see if they make the game cooler, or if they're just meh. I don't get all weak in the knees over drop targets like some, but a drop target is cooler than a stand-up with an insert light.

Maybe, that's what I'm trying to figure out. In general I've been moving away from gold. I don't like brass and have actually removed that look from a couple games in lieu of some new powder coating. That said, I'm guessing the SE trim isn't actually brass looking, so I'm trying to determine which looks better. From the one picture, I couldn't tell the bronze looked much different than standard trim, but that could have easily been the lighting.

I think JJP really owes owners/buyers some professional quality pictures of the trim so we can see what they look like and can make an educated decision.

I like the original LE myself especially now with the new PF that's enough Smaug, digging the characters on the cab and like the seaside bronze trim. The pin looks very cool, its all about gameplay now and I'm the only one who can judge that as to whether or not I like it. I liked IJ4 and hated Tron so who knows, once its home and I get 50+ plays on it a proper diagnosis can be made. Quick games at expos tells me nothing.

I've have fixed feelings about this game. I wasn't a fan of WOZ, but I appreciated the build quality, LCD, etc..

I had high hopes for the Hobbit. Loved the book and movies. Very disappointed with what JJP demonstrated at Expo last month.

I've been impressed with how many changes they made so quickly.

However, it still seems to lacking the WOW factor.

Another Pinsider described it best earlier and I can't think of a better way to describe it. It's like a modern day EM with drops as the main thing to shoot for.

That's it I guess. It's a 21st century EM.

I don't know what the JJP team will do with these drops but they have so many possibilities, they can let them dance. They can let them wave like the wave of people going around in big stadiums and you have to hit the peak. They can play a game of hide and seek, or they can play mind games with you.
What I see here are MOVING targets that bring dynamics in the game. You can't see this with the early code but I can imagine that they will bring something to this game that the crane does in BDK. One of the best toys in pinball! They are completly different to the static Droptargets we saw before like in Metallica.

At Expo the drops seemed to be so loud even with the glass on it was distracting.

With the first prototype reveal, TH not received well. Now prototype 2.0 is revealed. It is received much better, but still seems some areas not finished.

Many seemed to assume that prototype 1.0 was close to the finished product and that Jack wouldn't be able to fix things. Now with 2.0, some still have the same reservations.

Maybe Jack is feeding us prototypes that have been around for months. May not be the way a lot of us would have revealed the product, but Jack does things his way. If so, he must be pretty damn confident that the final product will be loved.

Ok, so I am not going crazy (well that's debatable, but regarding this at least). That first gameplay video a couple weeks back, the glass was on and those drops were loud. Even though the response was that the glass wasn't on, I thought I saw a reflection.

With WOZ, we saw prototypes out in the wild for months before release and changes continued to be tweaked. Is this still the process for Hobbit? If this is prototype 2, how many more iterations will there be and how long is the testing phase before production?

Solenoids were firing over and over so of course you would hear it and it be distracting. The drop targets will have more purpose to their movements instead of firing like a machine gun to get expo goers to see their full capability.

If you were flipping over and over in you would hear it too. Im not sure why people are getting hung up on the sound of the drop targets.

I appreciate all the comments about Drop Targets. I agree for the most part. The physicality of them certainly makes the shot more satisfying. I FAR prefer when dropping a target opens another possibility though. I'm a big fan of the mech, I love their implementation in my machines, MET's Inline Drops, STLE's Vengeance Drop, WOZ's Winky Target, TSPP's Itchy and Scratchy Hole (Yes, I meant to say that!) and TWDs Woodbury Drop.

How nice to see thoughtful responses to my post, instead of "You're a frakking TOOL. You must not know ANYTHING about REAL Pinball! What sort of moronic idiot faced jackhammer doesn't like Drop Targets??!! Go Whine to Gary Stern you Frakking Crybaby!!!"