(Topic ID: 77386)

Hobbit Update


By B9

5 years ago



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There are 10044 posts in this topic. You are on page 35 of 201.
#1701 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I can't remember if it was Keith or Alex (guessing Alex) but someone from JJP came in and said something along the lines of "you're our customers, of course we listen to you".
So what I took away from all of that was speak up. If something could be better then say so. Because JJP might listen and then we all win.

Yep.

I too appreciate all the vendors supporting pinball, and JJP deserves a special nod.

I'm not aware of any Stern designers communicating with us on the forums. To me this is what sets vendors like JJP apart -- they are willing to interact with the pinball community on Pinside. In fact, I can't think of another vendor besides Stern that won't communicate directly with us, and give us a sense that we have any ability to impact the design process.

I have no sense that anything I say can impact the next Chevy Corvette design. Period. Case Closed.

I do feel like I have a 1% chance of impacting facets of the next JJP playfield layout if I can make a solid argument and get some backing behind it. Even if the truth is closer to 0%, I feel like I have a chance, and that is both exciting, and inspiring as a Pinside member.

Props to JJP and all the other vendors that interact with us on Pinside...

-mof

#1702 5 years ago
Quoted from jsrfo:

I generally try to stay out of the swill on these threads, and made no mention of any brand or manufacturer purposely, nor did I state anything negative towards any manufacturer or game.
You mentioned Stern, and quoted "dimestore toys and action figures" from listing in the same breath. Maybe you want to think about that. They're your words, no one else's....
If a debate serves to make any one manufacture step up their game in any respect, then it's good. When the debate turns sour, as it does most often on pinside, there's no value added.
You mentioned TWD, and, some of the artwork and toys I saw looked very good. Maybe you're thinking that previous efforts from Stern had "dimestore looking toys and action figures" on them when compared to TWD.
But then again, maybe I am uninformed.

Might I ask to what/whom you were referring to with this statement:

Quoted from jsrfo:

Moving on to the current debate, how anyone can compare 1960's-ish lit bumper caps, dimestore toys and action figures on the playfield to what JJP has been doing? (Deep breath, waiting for the Pinside barrage of Fanboy remarks)

Calling out Aurich on saying 'Stern' after you set it up that way sure seems like "jumping into the swill" to me

#1703 5 years ago
Quoted from Schabs81:

Anyone know if they will have hobbit at expo next month?

No there won't be.

#1704 5 years ago
Quoted from jsrfo:

I generally try to stay out of the swill on these threads, and made no mention of any brand or manufacturer purposely, nor did I state anything negative towards any manufacturer or game.

You mentioned Stern, and quoted "dimestore toys and action figures" from my post in the same breath. Maybe you want to think about that. They're your words, no one else's.... You drew that conclusion.

Ahh... no. Clear as day who you were talking about.

#1705 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Can we please, please, just stop trotting out this tired argument?
There's really no reason why this has to be a Stern vs JJP fest. It's dumb. We all love pinball, this isn't like choosing your favorite baseball team. There's no need for blind loyalty.

I agree this shouldn't turn into a Stern vs JJP fest but since TH and TWD LE are selling for about the same price, I think it's natural to make comparisons as information is revealed.

Not for the purpose of bashing but to help each company understand why and where we are choosing to spend our money.

Hopefully, the end result is a better pinball machine for us.

#1706 5 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

I agree this shouldn't turn into a Stern vs JJP fest but since TH and TWD LE are selling for about the same price, I think it's natural to make comparisons as information is revealed.
Not for the purpose of bashing but to help each company understand why and where we are choosing to spend our money.
Hopefully, the end result is a better pinball machine for us.

Yeah but there's a big difference between comparing features and trotting out the same old fanboy BS.

-1
#1707 5 years ago
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

Might I ask to what/whom you were referring to with this statement:
Calling out Aurich on saying 'Stern' after you set it up that way sure seems like "jumping into the swill" to me

Maybe a little bit.

But apparently, he knew exactly what I was referencing. If he can see it and made comment on it on his own, then maybe he knows what I'm trying to convey. If so, then I think the use of the term "uninformed" is unnecessary and unwarranted. My point was taken without being said.

#1708 5 years ago
Quoted from jsrfo:

I generally try to stay out of the swill on these threads, and made no mention of any brand or manufacturer purposely, nor did I state anything negative towards any manufacturer or game.

You mentioned Stern, and quoted "dimestore toys and action figures" from my post in the same breath. Maybe you want to think about that. They're your words, no one else's.... You drew that conclusion.

#1709 5 years ago
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

Not to digress too far or add fuel to a fire, your math is correct but you're leveraging the cubic nature of volume to prop up your argument a bit and that's not usually how scaling works. I would doubt anyone would look at the 2.25" figure compared to a 1.5" figure and say "Wow that's 5x the size!" despite the volume mathematically agreeing with that statement.
Now, as far as the JJP models go, I honestly think they look fine. They will never be perfect for everyone and as long as WB thinks they are good, I say move along and get them into a playing game, and film them being bashed!

I think Keith's point was that the depth was a design factor because they are bash toys that need to be robust while also fitting in a tight spot that does not have much depth. It is much easier to make something accurately in appearance when you have no limitations in all directions, unlike the pop up figures which had to be morphed to fit the shallow front-to-back space available.

#1710 5 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Hopefully, the end result is a better pinball machine for us.

Agree! Looking forward to seeing the game all together. That should answer all the questions. Once the plastics, toys and game is fully playable that will be the true test. Looking forward to it

#1711 5 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

I think Keith's point was that the depth was a design factor because they are bash toys that need to be robust while also fitting in a tight spot that does not have much depth. It is much easier to make something accurately in appearance when you have no limitations in all directions, unlike the pop up figures which had to be morphed to fit the shallow front-to-back space available.

As well as left to right and up to down space...that defines the dimensions of the creature's face, which may not match reality so a little morphing is required.

#1712 5 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

I think Keith's point was that the depth was a design factor because they are bash toys that need to be robust while also fitting in a tight spot that does not have much depth. It is much easier to make something accurately in appearance when you have no limitations in all directions, unlike the pop up figures which had to be morphed to fit the shallow front-to-back space available.

Could be. But either way JJPs models are not 5x smaller to the average layperson than what was presented as an example. I know there are design challenges but stating it in that way is a bit misleading imo.

#1713 5 years ago
Quoted from jsrfo:

Maybe a little bit.
But apparently, he knew exactly what I was referencing. If he can see it and made comment on it on his own, then maybe he knows what I'm trying to convey. If so, then I think the use of the term "uninformed" is unnecessary and unwarranted. My point was taken without being said.

#1714 5 years ago
Quoted from krupa:

Yeah but there's a big difference between comparing features and trotting out the same old fanboy BS.

Unfortunately, oftentimes it seems when people compare features they get accused of "trotting out the same old fanboy BS". Maybe it's in the way they are saying it?

We all value different things in a pinball machine. I like lots of stuff in a new machine to feel like I'm getting my money's worth. Just my preference, but I want the manufacturers to know this so they produce machines more to my liking.

To me, saying that it looks like TH has way more "stuff" in it than the competition at a similar price point is fact, not fanboy BS. Since I value this, I'm more likely to cut JJP some slack in other areas and may use it as a reason why others should give them a break as well.

#1715 5 years ago

These are relatively small bash toys guys. If they don't disintegrate with repeated play I'll be happy. How much detail can you put on a bash toy? I'm happy with them. You may as well zoom in on a 1.5" square part of a plastic and critique that. Like WoZ, the machine will be greater than the sum of it's parts.

#1716 5 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Unfortunately, oftentimes it seems like when people compare features they get accused of "trotting out the same old fanboy BS". Maybe it's in the way they are saying it?

I agree. It can be a fine line. But when people pull out stock arguments that have nothing to do with the subject at hand, like "Walmart toys" and "Missed deadlines," to me it reeks of fanboy bs.

Quoted from Jvspin:

To me, saying that it looks like TH has way more "stuff" in it than the competition at a similar price point is fact, not fanboy BS. Since I value this, I'm more likely to cut JJP some slack in other areas and may use it as a reason why others should give them a break as well.

If everyone presented their arguments in the manner you have above these threads would probably never deteriorate the way they do.

#1717 5 years ago

This whole thread reminds me of the MMre coin mechanisms.
Some don't like the two heads. I think since three members of JJP posted here, and acknowledged the thoughts presented, the job is done.
Time to move on?

-2
#1718 5 years ago
Quoted from jsrfo:

Just want to mention that going back to 1994, Stargate had some cool resin sculpted toys on it, including two sculpted Mastages for bumper caps (with a lit ring below them) and a rising Horus and Anubis, and of course, the glidercraft. Very cool, especially for their time, and well integrated from the movie.
I own Stargate, and seeing the similarity between its sculptures and the WOZ sculptures swung me to the purchase of the WOZ. Wish I could afford The Hobbit (or any other NIB for that matter), but the wife would probably kill me.
Moving on to the current debate, how anyone can compare 1960's-ish lit bumper caps, dimestore toys and action figures on the playfield to what JJP has been doing? (Deep breath, waiting for the Pinside barrage of Fanboy remarks).
You don't have to like every aspect of every piece on every game. The WOZ trees are excellent, but the witch could have been executed better. But, within the game, it is good, and no one looks at it and says that it's mesed up. Everyone knows what it is, and isn't that the point? I suspect the Hobbit will be the same.
To me, JJP is making an attempt to return to the good days of the 1990's with their products. We all know that it hasn't been without issue, but they have kept improving their game. At least acknowledge or respect that. In any event, more pinball manufacturers means more pinball for all of us.

Reading over what I wrote above, I'm not sure why the outrage. I purposely did not state anything about a manufacturer, no matter how it was perceived, and yes, it was referring to Stern. After all, a few posts prior, someone complained about the Stern bumper caps.

But my point is this, the terms "lit bumper caps", "dimestore toys", and "action figures" seem to have really resonated with those reading this thread.

If I'm off base on that, and if others aren't thinking the same thing, please, let me know. But it seems that those terms struck a universal nerve. And everyone went to the same place or logical conclusion. Why? Apparently, whatever competition for market share has developed, it appears that has driven TWD at least partially in a new direction. Isn't that a good thing?

Sure, I own a WOZ. I don't really like or dislike the witch. It's part of the game, that's all. I bought the WOZ instead of something else new, because I have an opinion of which I liked better. Now, owning a WOZ has had it's on share of issues, some well documented here. There isn't anything perfect, and I won't hide from WOZ issues either. There's a lot to like, but there are things to dislike as well.

Shouldn't have stepped into the swill...

#1719 5 years ago
Quoted from Hitch9:

This whole thread reminds me of the MMre coin mechanisms.
Some don't like the two heads. I think since three members of JJP posted here, and acknowledged the thoughts presented, the job is done.
Time to move on?

Yes, and the fact that we could go through any game ever made and pick apart individual toys, plastics and mechanisms for likes and dislikes.

I am not in on Hobbit or any other new games. I will wait and see how each game looks and plays when they are finished and be a comprehensive judge at that time. It is really hard to keep perspective when things are shown in piecemeal. It would be best if everybody tried their best to take a wait and see approach and also put away their biases.
Zeppelin is the only theme I may jump in without even seeing it first. There is always one.

#1720 5 years ago

Just hoping that a prototype will be revealed during the coming Expo in October to put all what has been shown into the context it should be in. Will put a lot of minds at ease I think

#1721 5 years ago

Me too, and tons of others I would think...

#1722 5 years ago
Quoted from jsrfo:

Reading over what I wrote above, I'm not sure why the outrage. I purposely did not state anything about a manufacturer, no matter how it was perceived, and yes, it was referring to Stern. After all, a few posts prior, someone complained about the Stern bumper caps.
But my point is this, the terms "lit bumper caps", "dimestore toys", and "action figures" seem to have really resonated with those reading this thread.

I can't believe for a second you're confused by this. Who else would it be? There's essentially two manufacturers of pinball machines. We're in a JJP thread and you insinuated a comparison to another manufacturer. OMG WHO COULD IT BE?!!!111

Despite how clever you seem to think your wording was, you could have used any terms you want, the fact is Stern is the 'other guy' in any comparison with JJP. It's like posting on an android phone site about a phone company that just makes the same phone every year and is copying android and is behind in tech and blah blah blah... OMG IS IT APPLE?!?!?! Wow you picked up my hints!?! Hahaha that must mean they suck cause you said apple, not me!!

Give me a break.

#1723 5 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

Yes, and the fact that we could go through any game ever made and pick apart individual toys, plastics and mechanisms for likes and dislikes.

So true. That's the problem with releasing little bits of information. We get to focus completely on the one small aspect presented rather than seeing it as part of the whole and getting a better perspective.

#1724 5 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

Yes, and the fact that we could go through any game ever made and pick apart individual toys, plastics and mechanisms for likes and dislikes.

Yep. I was just playing my Addams Family and thinking how much of an uproar the phone plastic would cause nowadays.

#1725 5 years ago

For me, it comes down to the fact that I have non seen these 4 parts in context, but Jack, Matt and the JJP team have earned my trust. Looking forward to seeing the whole package!

#1726 5 years ago
Quoted from txstargazer3:

I have non seen these 4 parts in context, but Jack, Matt and the JJP team have ...

Quote a bit out of context, but you have a good point. JJP has seen the complete package (well - as it is today) and are pleased with how it looks. Matt is excited about Smaug. These are they guys that made WOZ and it is breathtaking. So if they like where it is going THLE should be awesome...

#1727 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballRulez:

Just hoping that a prototype will be revealed during the coming Expo in October to put all what has been shown into the context it should be in. Will put a lot of minds at ease I think

It was said earlier in the thread that no prototype will be at the expo.

#1728 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballer0415:

It was said earlier in the thread that no prototype will be at the expo.

Missed that one then. Can you refer to it?

-1
#1729 5 years ago
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

I can't believe for a second you're confused by this. Who else would it be? There's essentially two manufacturers of pinball machines. We're in a JJP thread and you insinuated a comparison to another manufacturer. OMG WHO COULD IT BE?!!!111
Despite how clever you seem to think your wording was, you could have used any terms you want, the fact is Stern is the 'other guy' in any comparison with JJP. It's like posting on an android phone site about a phone company that just makes the same phone every year and is copying android and is behind in tech and blah blah blah... OMG IS IT APPLE?!?!?! Wow you picked up my hints!?! Hahaha that must mean they suck cause you said apple, not me!!
Give me a break.

Lighten up, Francis.

It's a game, and this is a forum about games.

I really tried to recant my snarky/snide remarks about Stern's toys to the point where they did not need to be snarky and snide. And I probably took a little unnecessary offense to the uninformed remark. I'm disappointed with myself about that. Once posted, you can't take it back. All you can do is clarify or attempt to make amends. But my opinion remains unchanged, and my comment got a pretty visceral reaction from a few people, so there must be something to it. It just should not have come across like it did. I took liberty with the previous comment about bumper caps.

Whether someone thinks the toys Stern uses look like the stuff a three to eight year old boy plays with or not is up to that person. As I said, TWD is a big step in a better direction, if only from viewing the online pictures. Hope it continues, because a lot of Stern's games are quite fun. No competition equals a monopoly equals Status Quo. Status Quo isn't good for buyers.

-2
#1730 5 years ago
Quoted from jsrfo:

I really tried to recant my snarky/snide remarks about Stern's toys to the point where they did not need to be snarky and snide.

Quoted from jsrfo:

Whether someone thinks the toys Stern uses look like the stuff a three to eight year old boy plays with or not is up to that person.

-2
#1731 5 years ago

I can't get out of my own way on this, can I? I fall on my sword....

-2
#1732 5 years ago
Quoted from jsrfo:

I can't get out of my own way on this, can I? I fall on my sword....

I'll be honest though. That last one cracked me up. You really made an effort, and then...

#1733 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballRulez:

Missed that one then. Can you refer to it?

Page 34 second to last post

#1734 5 years ago
Quoted from pinball_keefer:

Just to justify my math:
1.5 x 1.5 x .75 = 1.6875
2.25 x 2 x 2 = 9
9 / 1.6875 = 5.33333

You're counting the negative space of that cube? REALLY?

#1735 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballer0415:

Page 34 second to last post

I already thought you referred to Dan's post. I think you should consider the Pinocchio he used there

#1736 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballRulez:

I already thought you referred to Dan's post. I think you should consider the Pinocchio he used there

Seriously. I'd be really surprised if they don't reveal the prototype at Expo

#1737 5 years ago
Quoted from krupa:

Yep. I was just playing my Addams Family and thinking how much of an uproar the phone plastic would cause nowadays.

Not necessarily, it would depend on which manufacturer was making the machine and who the competition was.

#1738 5 years ago

Isn't part of the problem with the Orc and goblin the fact that they are both the same colour? Shouldn't the goblin be more green as it looks like in the pic, a simple green
dry brushing would probably go a long way to differentiate.

#1739 5 years ago
Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

Seriously. I'd be really surprised if they don't reveal the prototype at Expo

To far away to attend Program looks really good.

-10
#1740 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballer0415:

It was said earlier in the thread that no prototype will be at the expo.

I believe that was Dannunz's comment (see below) and it seemed to clearly be sarcasm (hence the liar emoticon). I think you can pretty much guarantee Hobbit will be at Expo.

Quoted from dannunz:

No there won't be. <

I see everyone else on Pinside has stated their opinion on these pop-ups and we're left with the usual crew of JJP pumpers (and employees for that matter) repeating over and over that "these are no big deal", "I think they look okay", "they're so small who cares", and my personal favorite "you need to see them in context".

Next "update" please ...

#1741 5 years ago

If not at Expo, perhaps at at the Pinball Life bash?

#1742 5 years ago
Quoted from CraZ4Pin:

I believe that was Dannunz's comment (see below) and it seemed to clearly be sarcasm (hence the liar emoticon). I think you can pretty much guarantee Hobbit will be at Expo.

I see everyone else on Pinside has stated their opinion on these pop-ups and we're left with the usual crew of JJP pumpers (and employees for that matter) repeating over and over that "these are no big deal", "I think they look okay", and "they're so small who cares".
Next "update" please ...

There's plenty of good things to say about The Hobbit as opposed to making negative ones. For example all of the ramps and rails are metal as opposed to plastic. I would expect at least metal rails when spending $7k+ on a pin. The playfield artwork looks great especially after the team took into consideration customer feedback. We know that the code will be much further along at the release of the game then WOZ was when it first began shipping. The game is going to have two VUK's, a subway, 11 drop targets, a kick back, mechanical mini axes, two magnets and hopefully a very interactive Smaug toy. There's rumors about an interactive map on the apron of the game as well as a 5" LCD incorporated into the Bag End area. The game is also driving 17 more things then WOZ resulting in it weighing more then WOZ which many consider to be one of the most feature packed pins out there. With the game driving 17 more things I think that there is much more to be revealed. Plus we have another epic Keith Johnson ruleset to look forward to it.

As for the pop ups. Yeah I wish the Orc and Goblin were more detailed but like others have said they are very small and needed to be designed a certain way to pass WB approval. I thought the MM troll pop ups looked great until I saw them up close in this thread. The Goblic and Orc pop ups will be furthest away with the Spider and Wargs one being closer. When The Hobbit's pop ups are seen in the completed game I think they will look perfectly fine.

#1743 5 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

There's plenty of good things to say about The Hobbit as opposed to making negative ones. For example all of the ramps and rails are metal as opposed to plastic. I would expect at least metal rails when spending $7k+ on a pin. The playfield artwork looks great especially after the team took into consideration customer feedback. We know that the code will be much further along at the release of the game then WOZ was when it first began shipping. The game is going to have two VUK's, a subway, 11 drop targets, a kick back, mechanical mini axes, two magnets and hopefully a very interactive Smaug toy. There's rumors about an interactive map on the apron of the game as well as a 5" LCD incorporated into the Bag End area. The game is also driving 17 more things then WOZ resulting in it weighing more then WOZ which many consider to be one of the most feature packed pins out there. With the game driving 17 more things I think that there is much more to be revealed. Plus we have another epic Keith Johnson ruleset to look forward to it.
As for the pop ups. Yeah I wish the Orc and Goblin were more detailed but like others have said they are very small and needed to be designed a certain way to pass WB approval. I thought the MM troll pop ups looked great until I saw them up close in this thread. The Goblic and Orc pop ups will be furthest away with the Spider and Wargs one being closer. When The Hobbit's pop ups are seen in the completed game I think they will look perfectly fine.

I think a lot of the 17 more drivers will be eaten up by the drops...I think they MAY be individually resettable/droppable by the software, which would be awesome. Not sure, but someone at JJP said the drops would be a first of kind? Don't quote that. I can't imagine what else they could be if not just a standard bank? Hoping for an expo reveal...

#1744 5 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

lot of the 17 more drivers will be eaten up by the drops

Perhaps Smaug needs several as well?

#1745 5 years ago
Quoted from Goronic:

Perhaps Smaug needs several as well?

I assume a few there too!

#1746 5 years ago
Quoted from CraZ4Pin:

I believe that was Dannunz's comment (see below) and it seemed to clearly be sarcasm (hence the liar emoticon). I think you can pretty much guarantee Hobbit will be at Expo.

My bad, didn't catch the emoticon. Hopefully it will be at the Expo, that would be awesome!

#1747 5 years ago
Quoted from krupa:

I'll be honest though. That last one cracked me up. You really made an effort, and then...

You're right. I suppose I couldn't help myself.

My review of available pics of TWD tell me that for whatever reason, Stern has stepped up their game, and there's nothing wrong with that.

As for the Hobbit, the overall impression I get is that in the context of the game, the pieces shown here will be good representations of the movie, and they don't look to be inferior products to me, whether you like them or not.

I'll just go start a "Bash Stern Toys" thread on the Stern forum and see how that goes (just kidding).

-1
#1748 5 years ago
Quoted from CraZ4Pin:

we're left with the usual crew of JJP pumpers (and employees for that matter)

I'm just curious Craz, since you own WOZ, who are you going to turn to if you need service or technical help? You've pretty much burned your bridges with JJP.

#1749 5 years ago
Quoted from juanton:

I'm just curious Craz, since you own WOZ, who are you going to turn to if you need service or technical help? You've pretty much burned your bridges with JJP.

I'm sure JJP is professional enough to provide the warranty service it has promised to all of its customers, including the blindly loyal, the occasionally critical, and the purely peevish alike.

#1750 5 years ago
Quoted from juanton:

I'm just curious Craz, since you own WOZ, who are you going to turn to if you need service or technical help? You've pretty much burned your bridges with JJP.

You think there is nobody outside of JJP who knows how to service a game including myself? I live in MI. We're a dime a dozen here.

Burnt bridges? I'm not looking for a job from JJP (or anything else) and I do believe 85%+ of WOZ is quality. My comments regarding negative personal opinions about some aspects of their games (and business practices) were expressed for the most part in a perfectly polite manner. And nobody ever points out the numerous positive comments I've given certain other aspects of the game. They just immediately swarm negative feedback and try to attack the poster personally. In this thread they had no single person to attack (albeit I still took the brunt of their attacks) and instead brought in as many employees as possible to stop people posting negative feedback in general. It's just ridiculous how negative opinions get attacked and ridiculed on here (especially by actual employees of JJP .. that's not right.)

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