I hear ya but the first problem here was that you went to Boston Pizza after a game. Come on, Edmonton has better watering holes than that.

double post

Well, this couldn't be more false. P3 would be considered "in the pipeline" and is almost incalculably more advanced than JJP pins.

I'm in on the Hobbit, but P3 blows it away in terms of innovation.

Perhaps, but would you rather have Lexy Lightspeed or the Hobbit? Heck maybe you like both (are you in on the P3 Pre Order also?)

Touché!!!!!

It looks like the drop targets are too easy to hit and really no risk involved in them. They shouldn't abandon the idea. Maybe upper/lower flipper doesn't matter but you could still force the left orbit first to make it more challenging.

While the layout on Hobbit doesn't excite me, I'd like to play it with Keith's code before I make any real calls.

If you think for a millisecond that anyone in business (any product) is not concerned about making money you are sadly mistaken.
The bottom line guarantees continued existence. If not the business goes away.

True. The thing is, JJP HAS to be better than Stern. If not then what's the point? People would just stick with the bigger, faster company pumping out machines. If JJP was equal in quality to Stern they would be dead.

Yep, Stern is putting out 3 to 4 games a year almost vs JJP 1 game every 3 to 4 years, it better be amazing otherwise they are dead in the water. I hope JJP gets into a flow sooner than later but for now not that many people are willing to wait 3 years for their machine. I've lost interest in the TH, not that I wouldn't want one down the road but man way too long, Stern isn't worried about JJP right now thats for sure.

"Better" is subjective and that varies depending on the customer and is defined in a customer/s own terms.

If JJP can continue to exist making a game every few years then good for them but I do not know of many businesses that operate that way. Hopefully the launch of game #2 is not plagued with the same problems as experienced in game #1 and they start rolling out without further delays.

Are there any video game companies that work like this? It seems like unless they have multiple teams in place, it must take years to develop a game.

When the drops are popping up and dropping down when ever Keith wants them to it's not going to be easy at all.

Development is a different environment than the manufacturing floor. Its costly to have an assembly line / area sitting idle. Typically one platform is being manufactured while another is in development then the transition to the new product while production continues. Years of development is fine if you have other things running or being produced to offset the overhead. Hopefully WOZ orders are solid and can keep a full time staff working and then transition or produce both at the same time.

Have you done it? I have on The Shadow. No grooves on black powder coated ramps after like 10 years. Seems like speculation of people who haven't done it, based on my first-hand experience with actually doing it. Especially when we're talking non-routed pins for the most part.

Double Post

Stern better be worried about their own business. A whole lotta overhead to cover with the new factory and higher fixed costs.

Cranking out 4 pins a year isn't going to guarantee success, not that many themes that people will buy enough of.

Whoops. Welcome to Pinside new guy. Might want to check who you're talking to when you say it like that. I'm quite sure Alex has powdercoated more metal than you have ever seen powdercoated in real life.

I just wish the hobbit at MGC was set up nicely. Game played slow as fuck, speakers turned down so you couldn't hear a thing and a full plunge to start your ball was an intimidate drain. Hard to have fun and experience a game when it was so gimped.

I can see your point. But, trust those including myself who have played it several times, it kicks ass. It's decent fast for a wide body, music and sound are awesome and it's fun to play.

Lol you must be new here . A quick search should clear that up. And the fact you powdered ramps specifically the ones on the shadow with the diverter potentially rubbing against it is going to be an issue you may not think so but it impacts the ball movement and skid as well as creates tracks. That's a fact.

Hey Pinch...you guys coating the shooter rod housing included or is that a mod request?

For everyone admiring the new Hobbit playfield pics but too cheap/broke to buy in, remember that there's an open Project Pinball raffle, winner gets their choice of Hobbit or WOZ:
http://www.projectpinball.org/sweepstakes/

It apears to me that JJP has cut into his profit margin to give you and me a superior product. When was the last time Stern did that?

Was there a price cut that I missed? All I've seen are both Stern and JJP raising prices over the last 4 or so years.

Nice to see you on here Vic. Welcome.

I miss some of the great NIB deals you used to offer many years ago.

Got any pics?

Powdercoating ramps is a terrible idea. I think companies and people should have learned just from the powdercoated wiretubes on GNR. That alone slowed the ball down enough, that DE put out a chrome version to "fix" the fact that many games couldn't autolaunch the ball into play. Just that fact alone, would make me NOT want powdercoat on a ramp. Especially a steep ramp like shadow. Plating yes, powder no.

Beautiful looking game. May have to seriously consider one.
Only thing i dont like so much is the big legolas on the apron. Orlando bloom is annoying at the best of times and to have a character so pronounced on the apron that isnt a true hobbit character? Licensing i guess.

great job making the new guy feel welcome. this place gets more and more like RGP every day.
It is possible there are no issues with his ramps on his Shadow. But you guys know everything ... that's a fact.

What was wrong about what either of them said?

whats the you tube link for latest video?

I welcome new guys all the time. Normally it is some noob post needing help, or got my first machine thing, or something like that. I thumbs up every post of excitement from joining this hobby. I thumbs up new machines, even of games I don't like. New people are vital for this hobby to continue growing. But when the new guy starts calling people out, well that is different. Vic came in with attitude, and Vic might be the nicest guy in the world, but you don't walk into a party at someone's house and spit on the floor...

If Stern built WOZ they'd have to charge 11K to get their margin. Stern doesn't have an lcd yet because they haven't figured out how to implement it without compromising their fat profit margin. They continue to whittle away their product to satisfy demand for profit instead of improving their product to satisfy their customers.

There is no way JJP is making anywhere near what Stern makes on their game. WOZ is basically a HEP game straight from the factory. My point is that Jack's primary satisfaction seems to be making amazing pinball machines rather than amazing amounts of money. A side by side comparison of GoT and TH makes that crystal clear, especially considering their pricing.

Yeah, we def need a sticky notifying every newb to "search" Alex before posting. Gee Alex, you sure know a lot about The Shadow. To think I almost had one once.

hahaha ... really? C'mon.

Because you are the epitome of a welcoming committee. SMH. There are few here who are as nasty, condescending, and boorish as yourself. And you get a kick out of it.

Have a great day.

Woz is a HEP game from the factory?

Why not just stick with "WoZ is the most innovative, beautiful, feature-packed pinballs machine made. "

People could get behind that.

"HEP from the factory" just makes you sound irrational.

Also, this theory that "Stern is just in it for money and JJP is just in it for the love of pinball" misses the mark on both counts. Its defintely not that black/white.

Folks here should be able to rejoice in the JJP progress, and many do, but some seem only to be able to enjoy JJP when they can frame it against the failures of all the other competition.

Ill say it again: id refrain from "spiking the ball" on TH before your team even takes the field

actually its pinball thats"dead".Plenty of examples throughout pinball history of multiple manufactures making equal games in terms of technology and quality.Bigger pie ,bigger slices for everyone.thats not the case currently.
I think the better example or ? is who can survive a flop?Only Stern.If Hobbit is not well received does JJP stay afloat?With no preorder on the Lawlor pin can they keep going if one or more titles don't sell.I hope so.

Yes, I exaggerate but My WOZ has the look and feel of a game upgraded by a professional restorer.

lol

Agree. However, my gut tells me that had Sam Stern been in the wire coat hanger business Stern Pinball would not exist.

I also know that Stern made a profit when I bought a NIB TSPP(packed with features and legendary code) for 3900 in 2005. Now I feel like I'm getting ripped-off every time I contemplate buying a Stern.

Ok, bad analogy but my WOZ has that collector quality feel that none of the seven NIB sterns I've bought have had.

Agreed, and I'm an early WOZ buyer.

I think the constant comparisons putting down Stern or overly exuberant claims are part of the reason people get annoyed with JJP fans and want to point out every flaw when a JJP game comes out.

You've CLEARLY never opened a HEP crate.

LTG : )

Not sure about your gut, but my common sense tells me that no one starts a pinball company when the entire industry is going belly up and keeps it going for 15 years through good and bad times without liking pinball. Is Stern a business that is trying to make as much profit as possible, for certain. But if you think JJP is building pinball machines out of the goodness of his heart show me where they are registered as a non-profit organization.

As for the TSPP, that was a decade ago. Stern had to bring in outside investment to keep afloat not long after your purchase. They had to let go most of their designers, etc. just to keep going so I don't think that they were doing as well off of that 3900.00 TSPP as you think they were.

Bingo. If Stern continues down the path they are with cutting more corners and lowering feature sets they will realize quickly that more and more people will stop buying their games. Cost cutting + renting a bigger factory is the worst thing Stern could do.

There's a reason Stern "cranks" out the games. Just look at them compared to a JJP game. If they built a WOZ level game they would only be doing one or two of those a year.

Jack and Stern are both charging what the market will bear for their machines. No evidence to the contrary. JJP just needs to offer something more to penetrate a market dominated by a tough competitor like Stern.