I can't see them skimping in that department either....

Nope!! Me neither.

If Jack is using all Williams parts, that is not going to be very good quality.

Just the same junky plastic we've had for 50 years.

Vid...have you seen and played the game?

Vid, there is much anger in you.

Since when did preordering become the normal? Couple years ago, maybe 1% would preorder. Only ones that would buy a game without playing it were ops. Once the game was on location, could play the test games out there. That's when people would decide to place their order. Preorder is not normal. Except on this site it seems. 80% of you seem to preorder before even seeing a playfield. Throwing around money that loosely and freely is going to cause mass disappointments. That's not the way it used to work. No wonder Sterns can throw out games with half finished code. You guys arn't forcing their hand to have a complete product. You've already purchased before the game is even half way done being developed.

And those of you that say "no price increase and your bitching". Your looking at it the wrong way. If we were unhappy and not buying at $7500 (which is already increased $1000). Why would the price STAYING at $7500 for longer make us happy? It shouldn't be $7500 in the first place. Bring it back to WOZ level and more of us will consider it. I bet 50% more.

i would be in at 6500 for hobbitt - i am an early woz buyer and still very happy about it. i just could not order the hobbitt without having the woz yet. it's not on a knock on jack - more of a principle thing for me.

i give jack credit because he keeps adding things to woz that is eating into his profit margin - things such as the headphone jack setup - that was done well after we paid for games - he didn't have to do that - and nobody would be complaining - if it was all about the money he wouldn't be doing stuff like this

at 6500 i would have ordered the hobbitt - 7500 i am going to wait and see how woz is - and hell 2 years is a long way away and i'm not sure i will still be around - why make it harder on my family to unload all my weird hobbies - so right now i am on the sidelines for the hobbit (wanting to jump in - but still holding out for a discount to early woz buyers).

thanks ed

I'm surprised more WOZ buyers don't feel this way.

I do. WOZECLE #20. Sent Jack a very kind declination to his offer. No WOZ, not thinking about TH right now.

Rick. "I'm gonna have me some fun." #190

WOZ yes, HOB no.

Are there any buyers who actually followed the timeline you stated for the first two payments?

If those customers actually paid on time and later saw the rules changed, they receive no benefit in this payment delay. You benefited because they met the original obligation that you asked of them .

Those who weren't going to pay as agreed also benefit by gaining time to save money. The loyal customers who paid you as you initially requested are disregarded.

So will there be a new payment schedule? Currently, besides the deposit, there is a first payment due on 2/15/13, etc. Or will it just be that the amount previously due will have to be paid immediately and follow the rest of the schedule.

There is no anger in me, I just want you guys to start thinking critically.

Advertisers have been singing the "quality, quality, quality, quality..." song for 100 years- but as you have noticed (or at least I hope you have), it's just advertising.

You won't know ANYTHING about the quality until a number of years have passed.

The parts we DO know about (the Williams ones) break all the time.

I have made the first two payments already. The fact that the price increase is delayed has no meaning to me. I got the deal I signed up for and am happy.

He said it so it must be true????

I don't think anyone would be pre-ordering if not for the LE factor (yes, even "limited" to 1500) and the threat of imminent price increases, neither of which existed back in the day. In fact back then it was almost guaranteed that the price would go down, not up, further encouraging people not to buy early.

I would totally agree with you about pre-paying if not for the fact that JJP has proven to be so refund-friendly. If you get in early and decide you don't like the direction the pin is going in as more details are revealed, it's easy to bail out. You might even make money selling off your spot. To those who don't mind having some money tied up for a while, the risk is low.

Unless you think he is lying. Based on the numbers that have said they ordered here, I do not doubt him.

There's rush to pre-order for two reasons. Reason one being that the LE models (on Stern) lock you out of functions that the pro models do not contain. So if you want the complete game NIB you need to order an LE, usually sight unseen, before you get a chance to even see one in person. Imagine if Medieval Madness LE shipped with trolls and the catapult and the 'pro' model didn't have trolls or the catapult. Which one would as a private collector you want to own? Fortunately it seems like JJP has its models all built the same gameplay wise and the differences are essentially cosmetic.

The other rush to pre-order is of course the price differential. You pre-order and you save $1000 on the retail price of the cabinet. You buy it when it ships and you might be looking at an extra few hundred to a thousand dollars. You miss buying it NIB and the game goes up in price like MM, MB, or AFM, and you're really going to have spend extra. This is what happens with operators are being outnumbered by private collectors and the focus of game sales are homes and not arcades and routes.

This is very true.

I certainly hope and expect that most people are happy. Nobody is forced to stay in.

The deal you signed up for includes timely updates and delivery. I fully expect JJP to deliver, but it's too early to state you got that already.

Here is my "critical thinking"........

I love the LCD, lighting system, toys, unlimited ruleset, etc.............

If anybody else thinks they can do it better than JJ, Stern, Jpop or whomever then go start your own pinball company and see how easy it is!

Don't like it...don't buy it....that simple...

Well lots not start getting all reasonable now.

LTG : )

Don't forget matching "machine" numbers. I'm guessing quite a few WoZ buyers got caught up with that.

That's true, but for me it's less about thinking Williams parts are super high-quality, and more about the cost and widespread availability when they do wear out. For one thing I already have lots of Williams parts on-hand. But even if I didn't, and needed to buy flipper rebuild kits right now, they're about $22 vs Stern's $45 for a pair. It's nice to not have to buy and store a whole array of unique parts for a new manufacturer's machines.

Glad we can all agree that Williams mechanical parts are, for the most part, junk under operating conditions. They will be fine for home use. For commercial use; Gottlieb was #1, Bally (the real Bally, not "Williams/Bally) was #2, Williams #3 and Stern/Chicago Coin a distant 4th.

Well said. This is exactly how I feel about JJP.

QSS

Did you buy the game?

Well if your not buying and you remain silent. Nothing will be changed. Only way they know why your not buying is if you say something. They read these boards. If sales are way down, and people speak up why they refuse to buy. They can do things to change that. Seems like many on here are also on board with TH staying the same release price as WOZ.

I did and I did not follow the schedule. Sent several payments late, in fact I waited a while to pay the last half off very late. I was never harassed by JJP. I told them I was going to wait and they said OK. Kept my order and all.

I did not order Hobbit, but I am not a hard core fan of the series. I would like to see LOTR and Hobbit next to each other in my collection one day but right now I am not buying any pins because my money is going toward a garage/gameroom expansion of 2,400 sq ft or garage with 1,600 sq ft of game room/bar above it. The big purchase now is my four post lift which costs almost the same as a NIB pin right now. That is more important.

Basically, there are many options. You just need to choose what is right for you. I am going to do whatever I want with my money. I do not need everybody here telling me that what I am doing is stupid. If I wanted to hear that crap I would have never moved out of my mommys house a couple decades ago.

Why do you have to keep coming back here? You have a lot of balls complaining about JJP after asking some of the prices you did for your collection.

Wow, 4,000 sq/ft is one heck of an expansion.

I am not a huge Hobbit fan, but I am in. I want to buy another new machine and cannot justify giving Stern 7K for their latest offerings. Everyone has a different take and that's mine.

Well said.

Yea, but I didn't want to sell my collection. That was my personal collection and really wasn't for sale, but for those prices I couldn't say no. Jack is TRYING to sell games. Plus I like to see what everyone else's opinion is on the subject. Seems like there are many in the same group as I am.

Plus, this subject bothers me for the fact that I was all set to buy hobbit. I knew Jack had the Hobbit license for over a year now. I was ready to go in. Up until. He revealed he increased the price $1000. Then he lost me and pissed me off.

Why do you keep using $1000? Are you not reading other peoples posts or are you misleading on purpose? The actual price of ECLEWOZ is/was $7,500. Hobbit is $8,000. That is $500. Yes you could have gottned in early and bought WOZ at $6500 and early on Hobbit for $7500 but those are not the actual prices of the machine, just an early order discount.

that's right $6500 for early. You don't think 2 years is early enough? Where the hell is the $6500 early bird special this time around? Since he already released his first game in the highest price point for a NIB game to date. Figured, that he wouldn't dare raise it even more. But low and behold, he did. 12% at that. Damn I wish I got raises 12% every year. Already at the top price point, and for his loyal and faithful customers, I give you ONLY a 12% increase. That's right...ONLY 12% price increase. Thank you for your patronage in JJP and thank you for order before knowing anything about the game and seeing any pictures. Thank you....Drive thru.

I got in on WOZ ECLE late and paid $7500, same as I paid for TH LE. So, I saw no price increase.

So you aren't getting TH.....

Have you played it?

yea. Basically. I'm holding out. With 1500 LE's. I'll just wait until distributers need to unload them and drop them to the $6500 or less price point. Then i'll get one. Or if Jack is not getting enough sales and lowers the prebook price. Otherwise, nope.

I swear to the mother fnnn. We finally are so damn close to the WOZ being out and they have to start the Hobbit.
You would think JJP also filmed spanish soaps. So much freakin drama.
Dear god let the WOZ just be here and end some of this madness.

Should only be about 30-45 days for the lucky ones at the front of the line.

I always yell "Telemundo!" Really loud when I do a shot of tequila... Even when in public.

Didn't mean to hijack the bickering, lets get back to business

I had a look at the Hobbit payment schedule from JJP website and understand the pre-order "sale price" has been extended past 02/15/13 to an undetermined date.
While some of us do not agree with this "pay before you play" with a moving target completion date concept a few here have suggested that some of us must not be able to afford this game as reason to have not yet thrown down a deposit despite knowing the disastrous delayed history of WOZ.
Since the delays for WOZ are a sore spot for many, I thought an easy way to help make this bizarre pre-pay concept easier to swallow in the event this second game runs into delays as well would be to keep the payments on par with the progression of the game and leaving the last payment due on delivery. This way the owner will not feel as cheated through the process when delays occur and would give that extra incentive for the manufacturer to move the game along in a timely manner.
Although personally I don't support this "pay before you play" concept and feel it is a wrong direction for the good of pinball it could be the peace of mind for some if JJP must do it like this.
I took the Hobbit schedule from the JJP website and made changes to it to have it compensate for delay issues and the unknown to give you an idea what I mean as below, same idea but with better principles.

INITIAL DEPOSIT IS $500
All Deposits are fully refundable
Payment Schedule is as follows and fully refundable:
$1500-due on completion of PLAYFIELD
$1500-due on completion of ARTWORK
$1000-due on completion of SOFTWARE
$1000-due on completion of PROTO-TYPE
$2000-due on.....FINAL DELIVERY

THE PRE-ORDER PRICE FOR THE GAME IS $7,500.00 PLUS ANY APPLICABLE TAX AND SHIPPING CHARGES
Freight and any applicable Sales Taxes are additional.

Who says they don't?

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

Brain!...that is perfect! ...now you just need your own Pinball Company...

This sums up my stance on the subject perfectly.

Thank you, but what would be wrong with JJP doing it this way ?

It is your idea, he has his own and is running his company his way.

si