Special issue with hairy legs and feet! $10K by Christmas 2014!!!

I am just so dissapointed that the second game is preorder once again with no information. Do you see stern asking us for money for the next game or even steve ritchies game. No we get to see pics of a finished product before we have to buy at least and even then. I know what you guys are saying about limited, but my HULK LE is one of only 250; not 1500 which is ridiculus and not limited at all. Their are pins produced that did not even sell that many units. Just the wrong way to do business in my mind. Not to mention the first game is no where near complete yet either.

I think it is bad form for any company to ask for anything more than a deposit on a pin. What other business model does this??

I don't get it. JJP seems to have investors, so why not just start popping out machines? All the risk at this point with any of their machines is put on the consumer. If the pin becomes loser, dud, pos, then the consumer has already paid for it, so what do they care.

If it comes with incomplete code, what do they care. You've already paid for it.

I just dont get WHY they need full payment on a pre-ordered machine. I would say, pay a deposit, and if the buyer backs out you keep the deposit. Isn't that the reason for deposits?

Maybe I am in the minority...

It may not have been possible for Jack to get JJP up and running without this type of deposit/payment plan. That could still be the case for the next few pins from JJP. Maybe Jack will change this policy once the company is fully capitalized and making a profit.

You can always get a refund of your payments. I agree that I would prefer to pay when the game is finished but if this is a way to get competition into the arena I know we are all better off with two companies pushing each other to build better and more creative tables.

You only have to pay now if you want the $500 discount and guarantee an LE. You will still be able to buy the standard version when the game is released. If the LE doesn't sell out, you may be able to get one of those as well.

I highly doubt the le will sell out at 1500 units
my money will be with steve ritchie and stern and not joe balcer

I love how the people who are not planning on buying one can't stop talking about it and telling us why they aren't, over and over and over and over.....

Thanks for the laughs!

NP not a big fan of the theme, and in playing woz it was just not for me and I dont like not having a backglass and how they split it up into four sections. I am just more into avengers and metallica and star trek themes. Just saying I was expecting something really cool and the toys and mini playfields were just well not great and we are all entitled to opinon. So good luck to them

Who says I am not buying one?

C'mon D... Stern's model is to force your hand on the LE decision, and yes - to buy it sight unseen in many cases. If you wait, you miss out on the LE and have to get a cost-reduced game with actual playfield features removed. Its a total LE gamble... sometimes you win and get a great game, sometimes you get something less.

With JJP, you don't have to do anything. Just wait for the game to come out and play it. If you like it you can buy one with the EXACT SAME playfield features as their LE models. You know exactly what you're getting. If you decide you want an LE, to your point, there will be plenty on the second-hand marktet to chase.

I like that you can get a Premium ACDC with the same features as the LE, but curiously Stern hasn't gone back to that model.

I wasn't referring to you, Rick. You made some valid points, unlike others that keep popping up in JJP threads.

Neither company forces you to do anything. Both entice you to purchase before you can play the pin.

Well... duh. You can stick you head in the sand in order to miss the point if you like. I think most know what I'm saying.

Everyone knows what's you're saying, JJP is better than stern. Unfortunately, the example you gave not only doesn't support your point but one could argue the opposite based on your argument.

I get a kick out of that as well.

Please pardon me while I invade some AC/DC and Metallica threads and proclaim both to be the lamest themes short of Justin Bieber.

No, he's saying that the JJP business model of LE versions being mainly cosmetic and NOT a different game is better than Stern. Let's not twist words.

Stern fanboy vs jjp fanboy arguments are a complete waste of time have been covered 100s of times here. Both companies do things I think are really poor. Both companies do things well. I'm not twisting words. His whole point comes down to jjp being better than stern with a very weak argument IMO.

Why do you accuse me of being a JJP fanboy? Because I had the nerve to say I like JJP's model better?? Give me a break. Especially coming from you. You aren't exactly a neutral 3rd party observer, are ya?

Yes I am. I don't like jack for a number of very good reasons. I also don't like Gary for a number of very good reasons. I love some stern pins and dislike others. I haven't played Woz since it hasn't been delivered. I'll let you know what I think when it's done. I didn't call you a fanboy. I said these type of fanboy arguments are really a waste of time. I think most would agree.

Ok. Well, I'm done with this. Hungry for lunch... maybe Pizza.

Hey, as long as we have decent pinballs still being made I'm pleased as punch.

I started in the hobby in 2001 and B/W was gone and Stern was making sh#t games.

Things are better now.

Agreed, there are so many people making Pins now I'm getting them confused. That's a good thing for sure!

We know the theme and that is enough for many to drop cash. Based on your following statement I bet you would use a payment preorder plan for Metallica or Star Trek if it was used.

Do you see Stern telling us what there next game is? Nope. Feel free to show me an announce from Stern about what their next pin will be. How about what will be out in 18 months. They do not do it that way. it is not bad just different. I personally enjoyed the payment system and many have voiced the same opinion. They just seem to get ignored.

I think they will sell. You are correct, there have been smaller runs of pins but WOZ has already sold almost 1500 including the LE's and it is not out yet and it even has a bad theme according to many. I would bet you that all 1500 Hobbits are sold by JJP before the third movie shows.

If I put my money down, can I sell my spot for 10k in weeks to come?

I think they are. From what I've gathered, they plan to make a run of Premium Avengers at some point. Looks like they've learned their lesson from Tron LE. I wouldn't be surprised to see future versions come out in Pro and LE models initially. When the LE models sell out, they'll start cranking out Premiums.

I'm personally not a big fan of the LE model. I just think companies should focus on making the best game they can and sell it. Adds too many levels of confusion and uncertainty for buyers. I understand why it's done and know it will likely continue. But for someone like me, just make me a Premium version for a little less and I don't have to get caught up in all the LE crap.

I know from a business standpoint, if they can get peoples' money up-front, it's a smart move, but as a consumer, I am not comfortable with this business model. Especially for game #2 when game #1 is not even out yet. I don't think people are doing the pinball industry any favors paying for games that haven't been produced yet. I definitely wish JJP and all the other producers tremendous success, but I wish they would follow a more traditional model and produce the products first, before selling them. We've seen what happens already when people pre-order games with Stern. There's no real incentive for Stern to finish the games when they're already sold out.

I like the Premium idea that can be modded or up graded to LE easily in the future!I also think the Pro model for OPS should be capable of having everything in it also including software upgrades...

I understand why some people put their money into WOZ, as a show of good faith for Jack, to help him on his new venture. He talks about how he needed 1000 people to get on board all the time.

This move with Hobbit seems to have erased much of the goodwill he had with the community. I definitely understand why some don't feel good about it.

I wouldn't go so far as to think the Hobbit pre-order has "erased much of the goodwill".. Jack is a businessman. If the market wouldn't sustain what he's doing (the pre-orders) he wouldn't be doing it. So you can't really blame Jack. He has to make money to keep things going and the pre-orders are one option.

But if he wants to distinguish himself from Stern, which is something he constantly talks about, I think he should not jump on the same pre-order bandwagon that has caused so many problems for Stern.

IMO, Stern needs the pre-order model, because it seems only about 50% of the time do their games live up to the expectations of the users.

On the other hand, I can see the pre-orders being a strategic move to keep "the other guy" from selling games by tying up customer money.

Come to think of it... I pre-ordered WOZ. If I had to buy the game when it came out, I probably wouldn't have the money to do so. So Jack has managed to get me to purchase my first NIB even though by the time it ships, I wouldn't have been able to afford it. Pretty clever?

Exactly!! Make the LE a better value as a package and collectoble for a bit more but make everything else about the game available.

I have no problem with anyone who wants to preorder any game, Stern, WOZ, JPop, etc.. I didn't purchase a WOZ because of the theme. I'll likely buy a hobbit when its closer to coming out. But, I have to admit, I'm a little nervous about sending money this far out. It would be if different if there was more of a track record. Once they are more established I could see it. But I'm Leary right now. Once WOZ is out and they seem to have there feet under them, I'll order. Right now, its too far out and a bit of a gamble IMO.

Well said Help. We will see a difference in the philosophy of these two companies. Like you said Stern is not so motivated to complete code once the games are out, life was good for Stern with no competition. I think we will see a passion from the other side that reputation is important versus a company operating in what once was an uncompetitive marketplace.

As long as the company doesn't declare bankruptcy, 3rd party lawsuits impacting operations, etc, etc,...I don't understand people putting their money at risk for such a long period of time for what basically amounts to a toy. Any number of things can happen that has nothing to do with the "trustworthiness" of one person refunding their pre-orders.

I never said it was "such a profitable venture" I said he is not doing it just for the love of the game. The JJP venture will help fund a comfortable retirement. He is probably hoping for an early one at that. His children could take over the day to day or if wildly successful, he could sell the business.

Don't forget that he sold over 10,000 Stern pins via pinballsales. Some of the revenue became profit that he has probably used in the JJP venture. He was a very good seller for Stern and I bought some NIB's from him even though I could have a paid a few bucks less from local distributors. I liked his attitude, the extended warranty and the fact he always picked up the phone no matter where he was at. I never had to leave a message and that spoke volumes for me. One purchase was like a handshake deal (but over the phone) as well as he arranged shipping before payment and I paid him as promised .

If there is a pin by JJP that I want (Woz and TH are not themes that I care for) I will be buying one that's for sure.

If you really want to know how much it costs to set up a new pinball manufacturing business, I can research my files as far as what Bally paid to tool up for the solid state pins in the mid '70's as the business model was similar. They stopped producing many stamped steel parts for the em mechs and outsourced. There was some disposal fees for obsolete equipment but their slot & Bingo machines remained EM for a few more years past the pinball transition. All we need to is adjust for US dollar inflation etc.

Let me know if you need the figures and I can research. However, I still need to make my video files from 8MM movies of Bally, Williams and Gottlieb from the Mid-late 70's and post them here.

Maybe this discussion will go away when JJP are having a few pins out. The factory and his business running fluidly.

Then maybe people gonne apreciate the option to pay this early. Cause its alot of money, gives you more time to save.

Bally, You sorta make it sound like a slam dunk that JJP will be profitable.

Starting a manufacturing company in the economy of two years ago was and still is a considerable risk. He could have gone BK and lost a large chunk of his own investment.

I get a strong sense of passion from Jack that I don't from Gary (my personal opinion). All the times I have seen or talked with Gary it is all about the "numbers". Jack said he through the calculator out with WOZ and it shows in the finished product. I don't think ROI in JJP will be anything to exciting for quite some time.

No need to dig up the old Bally business plan. We all know it's prohibitively expensive to set up a manufacturing enterprise, especially in the United States and a sizable amount of risk goes along with that. No lock on early retirement for Jack.

Now back to work on those 8MM conversions : ))

If setting up a pinball company and becoming profitable was easy, more people would have done it. JJP could end up being a profitable company, but I think that's down the road. I'd be shocked if they made a profit on WOZ. You don't go around asking for money on a machine 2 years in advance if you're cranking out profits.

For me, I just hate dealing with the LE stuff. Whether to get in, whether it's worth the extra cost, and whether I want to miss out on some features by waiting.

I would love for them to just make a Pro and Premium. Allow people who buy the Pro to upgrade aspects of it so that it can come in line with the Premium if they choose to do so later on. I would have purchased an Avengers Pro if they had this in place and if I really took a liking to the game, I'd upgrade the features to the Premium on my own. But now, I'm kind of on the fence as to what I want to do. Not real fond of the LEs and sort of waiting to see what the Premium looks like and what it's priced at.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I'd love to be able to make the smaller investment for a Pro machine and then decide later on if it's worth purchasing the necessary upgrades to turn it into a Premium.

The whole problem with the Pro/Premium/LE discussion I see here, is it's based on Stern's bizarre model of doing business. Which is: let's create two completely different versions of the same game. When you buy a Pro, you aren't just missing out on minor things you could theoretically add on later: you're getting entirely different game. Different playfields, different wiring, different cabinets, different major toys, and so forth. The two are so unrelated from a manufacturing standpoint, there's no way to even begin offering upgrades.

But since this is a Hobbit thread in the JJP forum... if you don't get in on a JJP LE, you aren't missing out on all sorts of desirable features. You aren't getting lower quality audio, less clearcoat, fewer toys, and so forth. Theoretically, if you could buy the right parts, you could very easily turn a standard into an LE.

If anything, I feel Jack actually needs to create MORE of a difference in their LEs. WOZ kinda had the LE feature list whittled down when they added the wooden apron and mirrored backglass to the standard, and the topper... eh...

I feel this way as well. I REALLY like what I've seen so far from Heighway Pinball. I read this quote from them today on Pinball News:
"We are fully committed to producing the Deluxe model, but at this stage we are making sure that we get our Standard model right first. If the Deluxe model is not ready in time for our first release then it will almost certainly be available for our second release in the summer. In any case, our Standard hardware units have been designed to be upgradeable to Deluxe units in the future, so purchasers of our Standard system don't need to lose out by investing in the Standard system initially."
I'm in on WoZ and TH either way, but this sounds cool too.

I like what JJP is doing with their LE and don't understand why so many people want a machine that others can't have. The only reason why people would be upset that the LE doesn't have more differentiating features is for investment reasons. I understand it, but I think the goal of companies like JJP should be more on creating the highest quality, feature laden products for anyone who wants them and less on creating a limited number of machines for a small segment of the pinball community.

Just to make it clear, when I say I think JJP needs more of a difference in the LEs, I'm not saying by adding major features - just bling that doesn't impact the overall gameplay experience.

*Because* gameplay is identical on JJP machines, the LEs need to be made attractive for the added money. With 1000 or 1500 being made the number only has so much intrinsic cash value, and people need to be able to look at the extra cost they're paying (at one point the LE was being sold at a $1000 premium over the standard), and the extra bling they're getting, and go "wow, that's a deal - I will preorder and pay more for that".

Otherwise, folks might as well wait until the standard comes out, and I'm sure that isn't what Jack wants.

So are they pre ordering for hobbit or just LE?

right now you can pre-order the follwoing

Wizard of Oz (standard)
The Hobbit (Limited edition)

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested in The Hobbit. But I'm willing to wait and see. Also with seeing how long WOZ buyers have been waiting and having a good amount of money tied up, I'm all the more willing to sit on the sidelines for this one.

I also think Balcer and Keith can make a really great game, I'm a fan of TSPP and don't mind The Hobbit as a theme, so neither of those are a factor for me.

I really wish a new company would come around and f^(k off the licensed themed pins and design a clever in-house produced themed product that cost literally half the price. There is a booming market for pins, who gives a shit about the Wizard of Oz or The Hobbit?

_{Post edited by absocountry2 : Profanity edited}

Have you seen this yet?

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/full-throttle-looking-good

IMO, that's wishful thinking. I don't see anyone getting rich selling pinball machines now. If anybody should be, it's Gary Stern, but he seems to constantly be in need of capital to operate. Times are looking good for him now, but he also has had to hire a bunch of big guns to remain competitive.

JJP has tremendous start-up costs. I would not be surprised if he's in the red mid six-figures on WOZ. He's probably going to have to sell as many Hobbits as he does WOZ to break even.

I think some of you people have no idea how difficult it is to start a business of this type. And it's ten times worse when you're doing something like a pinball machine where you have components being custom-made from dozens of different suppliers, all of whom have different schedules, most of whom are small companies that are resource-strapped themselves. I don't envy how much time and money it's taken Jack to get his company to this point.

... aaaaaaaaaand that's where in-house theme's goes wrong, terribly wrong. I read Full Throttle and I thought "Alright! Awesome! A chopper pin" then I was greeted to the NES era campy cheesy artwork and lame ass crotch rocket bike theme. FML PEOPLE.

Except that license rights don't add that much to production costs. Industry standard was about $50 a machine, might be slightly higher now.

LTG : )