(Topic ID: 234404)

Highspeed pop bumper not popping! :-(

By Silverballwizard

5 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 22 posts
  • 2 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by robertmee
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

Schematic (resized).jpg
2n4401-transistor-pinout-equivalent (resized).png
#1 5 years ago

Ok, here's the skinny:
I have a highspeed and the right pop bumper is not popping. I checked the leaf switch underneath and not dirty. I took out the coil and I found that the sleeve had a bubble in it so I replaced it. Now the plunger goes all the way down. Still not popping. I checked the coil itself and it looks like the coil paper wrapper is blackened (suggesting why the bubble in the sleeve.) Checking the coil with a VOM I get 3.56 ohms on the other two pop coils next to it, but only .5 on the suspect one. I replaced it. Still not popping. I located the "Q" number that controls the right pop and found it to be number 73. I checked it with a VOM by testing the continuity to a ground strap and it DOES produce a tone. (just like the others around it.) My question is, how does one activate it? I remember from electronics class back in my youth, that you can short the top tab to something, (don't remember what....) and it will "trip it's trigger"....then I can trip the others around it and see if the coil is getting power and if not replace the "Q"? Any ideas?
Thanks in advance.

#2 5 years ago

Q73 is the transistor for the right pop bumper. You can short the metal tab briefly to ground to see if the pop fires. But this doesn't test the transistor. It's just testing the emitter leg, trace, connector and wiring to the coil. If the coil doesn't fire, it could either be no power at the coil, or a bad connector/wire.

I would start first at the coil. With a VMM to VDC, black lead to ground strap, red lead to lug that has the same color wire as the pops next to it. This is the daisy chained power feed. All the pop coils have constant voltage and the CPU and Switch supply the ground to fire the coil. The pops in HS are called specials and are both MPU controlled as well as direct switch controlled. If you have voltage here, you can briefly with a jumper wire tied to ground, touch the coil lug that has the striped wire on it. According to the manual it's blue/red. If the coil fires, then the coil is ok, and you have power.

Next, ground the pin IJ19-3. That's the ground wire to the coil. Should also be blue/red. If you ground it at the connector and the coil fires, then the wiring and power are good.

At this point, you're going to need a logic probe. Both the pop bumper switch and the MPU feed a predriver transistor Q72 which actually turns on Q73 and supplies the ground path. It's not uncommon for a bad coil to take out Q72 and/or Q73. With a logic probe, we can see where the logic isn't working. But try the first tests initially and see if you see any activity.

Note: Please follow the manual and verify the wire colors. The Manual isn't actually consistent. One page shows Q73 as the special solenoid on J19-3, but another page shows a different Q on J19-3.

Follow up: Here's another thread that documents exactly what I just described. It also confirms the manual is in error. It begins to get into the logic side of things towards the end, but let's get past the first part before we worry about that: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-troubleshoot-special-switchessolenoids

#3 5 years ago

OK, when I short the top tab of Q73 to ground IT FIRES! (WOOHOO)
When I short the pin J19-3 to ground IT FIRES! (WOOHOO)
I guess the next thing to try is the Qs them selves....
How do I do that? (in detail please)
Thanks for the help so far....
(at least I know that the coil will fire and the wiring is working!)

#4 5 years ago

The next step is to test Q73:

1) Turn game off
2) Remove connector J19 from the CPU board
3) Set DMM set to diode function
4) Black DMM lead on the metal transistor tab.
5) Red DMM Lead on each outside leg of Q73
6) DMM should show .4 to .6. If good, proceed to 7
7) Red DMM lead on the metal transistor tab.
8) Black DMM Lead on each outside leg of Q73
9) DMM should show OL or Infinity, NOT zero or some reading

10) If step 6 or 9 fails, replace transistor.

11) If step 6 and 9 passes, you'll really need a logic probe to continue, or you can replace Q72, the pre-driver transistor and cross your fingers.

#5 5 years ago

Q73 passed with flying colors!

Black DMM lead on the metal transistor tab.
Red DMM Lead on each outside leg of Q73
DMM showed .53 on both legs.

then....

Red DMM lead on the metal transistor tab.
Black DMM Lead on each outside leg of Q73
DMM showed OL or Infinity, NOT zero or some reading

any way to test Q72?
or test U45?

#6 5 years ago
Quoted from Silverballwizard:

Q73 passed with flying colors!
Black DMM lead on the metal transistor tab.
Red DMM Lead on each outside leg of Q73
DMM showed .53 on both legs.
then....
Red DMM lead on the metal transistor tab.
Black DMM Lead on each outside leg of Q73
DMM showed OL or Infinity, NOT zero or some reading
any way to test Q72?
or test U45?

Do you have a logic probe?

Also, did you try to test the coil from the menu? In HS you can fire the coil from the tset menu....do it with the coin door closed to enable the coils once you select it. That would point to a switch issue or board issue.

#7 5 years ago

I did the coil test and all coils pop except that one. I paused the test on that coil and nothing.....
I paused the test on other coils and they repeatedly fire.
what does that point to?

I don't have a logic probe....can a DMM do the test?

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from Silverballwizard:

I did the coil test and all coils pop except that one. I paused the test on that coil and nothing.....
I paused the test on other coils and they repeatedly fire.
what does that point to?
I don't have a logic probe....can a DMM do the test?

So, to summarize, neither the MPU nor the Pop Bumper Skirt Switch are able to fire the coil, but grounding Q73 tab, does fire the coil.

To me, that points to either U45 or Q72. The Ground from the Pop Bumper Switch and the Data signal from the MPU go through a NOR gate (U45). That signal then turns on Q72, which in turn, turns on Q73. Without a logic probe, it's difficult to know for certain. A logic probe will show you the brief pulse from the MPU in coil test mode, that will be difficult to see on a meter, because the signal is rapid, and by the time the meter responds, it's gone. However, we may be able to use the fact that these coils are specials to our advantage. Because the MPU changes the signal rapidly, BUT, the pop bumper skirt switch will be there as long as you hold it in. Normally, in game play, the switch activates, the coil stays on as long as the switch is made, but the pumper pushes the ball off the switch rapidly, so the coil is released.

Here's what you can do, but I don't know if you can get your physical leads of your meter in place well enough to test.

I've attached a diagram of the pre-driver transistor for reference.

With the game on and in a state that the OTHER pop bumpers work (we're going to use them as our reference), do the following. First test, that the working pop bumper works by pressing down the bumper skirt. Then remove Fuse F2 (power to the coil), and retest, making sure the pop bumper doesn't work now (going by memory here, you might have to experiment to find the actual fuse. Also, opening the coin door might do the same, but I don't recall on HS). What we are after, is that the logic works, but we remove the power to the coil so it doesn't fire while testing. Any fuse removal, do with game powered off.

Once you have the game to a state that the pops would work, but the power is removed, we're going to test the logic circuits.

Meter on VDC, black lead to ground. With the WORKING Pop Bumper (Let's choose upper Left Q77/Q76 pair) not made, put your red lead on each leg of the pre-driver transistor Q76 and record the voltage. You'll see something between millivolts and 5V on each test.

Working Pop Bumper OFF Leg 1 Q76 = X Volts
Working Pop Bumper OFF Leg 2 Q76 = X Volts
Working Pop Bumper OFF Leg 3 Q76 = X Volts

Now, put something on the Pop Bumper skirt to make the switch. Keep it held down for the next tests:

Working Pop Bumper ON Leg 1 Q76 = X Volts
Working Pop Bumper ON Leg 2 Q76 = X Volts
Working Pop Bumper ON Leg 3 Q76 = X Volts

So that's are reference. We're now going to compare to the non working Bumper

Non Working Pop Bumper OFF Leg 1 Q72 = X Volts
Non Working Pop Bumper OFF Leg 2 Q72 = X Volts
Non Working Pop Bumper OFF Leg 3 Q72 = X Volts

Now, put something on the Pop Bumper skirt to make the switch. Keep it held down for the next tests:

Non Working Pop Bumper ON Leg 1 Q72 = X Volts
Non Working Pop Bumper ON Leg 2 Q72 = X Volts
Non Working Pop Bumper ON Leg 3 Q72 = X Volts

You might have to use a paper clip tied to your meter lead to get to the legs....OR, if you are comfortable reading a schematic, there are points that are easier to reach. I've attached the schematic, so for example, to get to leg 2 of Q72, you see that is connected to Resistor R106. One side of R106 is connected to 5V (that's the little triangle), so visually look at the board trace to see which side you should measure on R106 to check leg 2 of Q72. Likewise, leg 1 can be measured at R105, and leg 3 at R107.

2n4401-transistor-pinout-equivalent (resized).png2n4401-transistor-pinout-equivalent (resized).pngSchematic (resized).jpgSchematic (resized).jpg
#9 5 years ago

OK, so i thought about where in my junk I could find my MYCRONTA transistor checker and I FOUND IT! I dusted it off and put a fresh battery in ot.
The idea of clipping its connectors to surrounding easy to clip onto legs of other components is a GOOD ONE! I clipped the mycronta to E and C of Q72 and the lower leg of resistor of R106 for the base and switched to NPN setting and got no result. Just for shits and giggles I tested the ones next to it and Whammo! The light read perfect little Qs. It was a bad coil, and it took out Q72. I will order a few of them and replace Q72 and update everybody when it arrives and gets installed.

Is it possible that the bad coil also took out U45?

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from Silverballwizard:

OK, so i thought about where in my junk I could find my MYCRONTA transistor checker and I FOUND IT! I dusted it off and put a fresh battery in ot.
The idea of clipping its connectors to surrounding easy to clip onto legs of other components is a GOOD ONE! I clipped the mycronta to E and C of Q72 and the lower leg of resistor of R106 for the base and switched to NPN setting and got no result. Just for shits and giggles I tested the ones next to it and Whammo! The light read perfect little Qs. It was a bad coil, and it took out Q72. I will order a few of them and replace Q72 and update everybody when it arrives and gets installed.
Is it possible that the bad coil also took out U45?

Anything is possible, but usually the pre driver is more common to fail. You can check U45 by running through the tests I wrote and checking the base voltage of Q72 which is the result of the NOR gate.

#11 5 years ago

If I solder the Q72 in (when it arrives) and it doesn't fire the pop bumper, I will check that next. Thanks again.

#12 5 years ago

BTW, what features should I look for on a Logic Probe?
A switch between DTL TTL & CMOS or maybe Pulse Memory?
your thoughts....

#13 5 years ago
Quoted from Silverballwizard:

BTW, what features should I look for on a Logic Probe?
A switch between DTL TTL & CMOS or maybe Pulse Memory?
your thoughts....

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/terrybs-guide-to-logic-probes

3 weeks later
#14 5 years ago

ok, I have finally received the exact logic probe you recommended.

I know that you put the red connector of the logic probe to the
5 volt test point right next to U-22 and the ground test point by the battery pack.

I connected the power (as stated above) and put the logic probe pin on pin 2 with the coil test
on that pop bumper to fire every second and it went from high to low every second.
I tested pin three and it stayed low. is the u45 good? if so, what now?

If pin two is the trigger to Q72, then what connection to Q72 is it?
emitter? base? or collector?
the drawings are so crude, I cant tell......

#15 5 years ago

Okay....with the logic probe, we want to check pins 1, 2 and 3 of U45. Pin 2 is the combo switch from the Playfield and command from the MPU to fire the bumper. So the fact that pin 2 is transitioning to low is good. Next you want to check pin 3. It should be held low all the time by the blanking circuit. Finally, check pin 1. If Pin 3 is low, then every time Pin 2 goes low, Pin 1 should go high.

Pin 1 is the trigger to Q72. Once we see it's going high then we can move on to Q72. If Pin 1 isn't toggling with Pin 2, then U45 is bad (assuming again that Pin 3 is okay).

If you want to compare, put the solenoid on Q76 into coil test and check pins 1,2 and 3 of U50. It's the same logic.

#16 5 years ago

Okay, so what I've done is found out what u50 pins 1 2 and 3 activate. And for those following after this conversation, it's the upper left jet bumper next to the one I'm having problems with. After activating the upper-left jet bumper, and holding it on that coil test, I find that pin 1 jumps between low and high every time the coil fires, pin 2 jumps between high and low every time the coil fires, and pin 3 stays consistently low.

On the other hand going back to the coil test for right jet bumper, I find that pin 3 stays consistently low, pin 2 jumps from high to low, but pin number one, stays consistently low. So I'm guessing I need to unsolder u45, put in a socket in a fresh 7402?

#17 5 years ago

Yep, appears U45 is toast, unless somehow Q72 is dragging pin 1 low. Since it's harder to desolder an IC than the transistor, you could first desolder Q72 off the board or clip the legs, and then retest the 7402 IC at U45. Did you ever replace Q72....I read back through, and you said you were ordering some, but I didn't see whether you actually replaced it.

#18 5 years ago

Yes I did, but it didn't help. It's possible that I did a poor job of soldering. I will go back and check through it and let you know.

1 week later
#19 5 years ago

It does look like U45 is toast. Looking on eBay, I see a lot of 74HC02 chips but not the plain old 7402. Is there a difference? It looks like the 7402 is a TTL chip and the 74HC02 chip is a CMOS chip? Is that correct? I believe the 7402 original is supposed to be a TTL chip? I'm not sure of any of this. Got any ideas?

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from Silverballwizard:

It does look like U45 is toast. Looking on eBay, I see a lot of 74HC02 chips but not the plain old 7402. Is there a difference? It looks like the 7402 is a TTL chip and the 74HC02 chip is a CMOS chip? Is that correct? I believe the 7402 original is supposed to be a TTL chip? I'm not sure of any of this. Got any ideas?

I wouldn't buy from ebay, anyway....buy from Ed at GPE https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=12

As for CMOS vs TTL, this link provides a decent description between the two: https://pinballrehab.com/1-articles/solid-state-repair/tutorials/107-electronics-tutorial-integrated-circuits

#21 5 years ago

So if I am understanding this, my machine uses TTL and I should NOT mix cmos in a TTL machine,
and NOT use anything but a PURE 7402 and not put in a 74HC02 chip in there...... is that correct?

#22 5 years ago
Quoted from Silverballwizard:

So if I am understanding this, my machine uses TTL and I should NOT mix cmos in a TTL machine,
and NOT use anything but a PURE 7402 and not put in a 74HC02 chip in there...... is that correct?

Can't say definitively...CMOS has a different switch level than TTL as to what it considers high/low. It might work, but given that the original is available easily, why even worry about it. Just buy a replacement 7402.

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
$ 53.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
 
$ 10.00
Playfield - Protection
UpKick Pinball
 
From: $ 3.50
Playfield - Other
Rocket City Pinball
 
$ 18.00
Electronics
Yorktown Arcade Supply
 
$ 15.00
Playfield - Other
RobTune
 
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Fort Lauderdale, FL
$ 35.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
 
$ 10.00
Playfield - Protection
UpKick Pinball
 
4,995 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Dunakeszi
$ 35.00
Cabinet - Other
Rocket City Pinball
 
$ 2.50
Lighting - Led
Pinballrom
 
$ 15.00
Playfield - Decals
Metal-Mods
 
$ 54.99
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
6,500
Machine - For Sale
Orange, CA
$ 20.00
Cabinet - Decals
Pinball Haus
 
$ 15.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
RobTune
 
$ 69.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Pimp
 
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Red Oak, TX
$ 27.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 12.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
UpKick Pinball
 
Hey modders!
Your shop name here

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/highspeed-pop-bumper-not-popping- and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.