I've got one of those, it has been dormant the last few years but we kept watering it and now it has sprouted out big time.
We pulled almost 70K off of it last month.

I bet Stern wish they never laid Keith Johnson off, Imagine the code he could have done for Xmen

And the code he WOULDN'T have done for JJP..

-Wes

Maybe do both? freelance coder,

I'm a software engineer by trade. It's not that difficult, but there could be other factors. The big question is, is there anything stopping a programmer from finishing code on his own? For example, if one of them does an update for a game, does it have to go through some kind of elaborate QA process before it can be released? And is that process being held up by higher-ups who have the resources dedicated to newer games?

I was under the impression that was the only way Lyman finished his games.

I was thinking this as well over the weekend. Biggest mistake Stern has made in recent memory is letting Keith go and, apparently, replacing him with people that don't understand pinball.

Presumably there is a liability issue with un-tested code.. if someone releases something and it causes a coil to stay on and catch fire, it could be an issue.. maybe in licensed themes they have to get approval from the license holder for updates to the product? I don't know. But if it is up to the coder to finish and they just "run out of time", that's lame. It would be a point of personal pride for me to not have unfinished or buggy code out there. That's your reputation.

Agreed. If I were Waison I'd be very disappointed if I could not finish Xmen due to some bureaucratic nonsense.

-Wes

The main reason I pre-ordered WOZ was IMO, because Keith Johnson's work is orders of magnitude better than any other modern software engineer in the industry. His games are generally bug-free, complete, well balanced, and deep.

I played Star Trek in Houston. As we played the game, 555 LEDs became unseated and rained down on us during gameplay. I don't get the feeling Stern's priority is to focus on the future.

Oh the humanity!

To me, a game can have code that could last an eternity but if the layout/gameplay does not entice me then it is all for not. I do agree though code that is finished and well thought out can really take a pin to the next level.

Yeah that just isn't right. I will likely be holding a grudge against Stern if they do not release at least one more big update for XM. Not allowing staff to finish games for buying customers is just poor form. Really frustrating as a fan and customer (for now).

I love Fire! and it has been on my short list for a long time.

If I ever actually come across one locally that isn't trashed and overpriced by $1,000, it's MINE.

Some perspective about game software development...

I work in the game industry, and what takes so long is implementation -> QA -> iteration -> start over. You don't just sit down with a design document as the project begins and plan out every feature and keep that feature list locked for the entire project.

Sometimes, even post release, a planned feature gets scrapped because it turned out to not work as the designers intended. A good pinball example would probably be "The Captain's Chair" as printed on the playfield of ST. It could be that missions used to be very difficult to complete and didn't have 3 levels each, and so completing 3 in a row was a big deal. Gameplay iteration could've taken them down a different path that was more (for lack of a better word) fun. Now missions are easier to complete, and so lighting 3 can't give the printed award without negatively impacting gameplay. So the newer version may be misleading, but it's better to mislead than to continue down a design path that doesn't work. I have no evidence that this is what happened... it's just a theoretical example based on my experience.

Also, if Stern operates like a modern game company, there is a great benefit to releasing lighter software into the wild with the intent to improve it. You have some machines in the public and periodically collect analytic data, and that data will inform the post-release development process. No amount of in-house testing can possibly compete with that.

Has anybody ever asked any Stern people if there is a significant QA process with respect to software and what it involves?

I think this pretty much nailed it on the head.

On a semi-side note; i wonder if it was the designers intent for xmen to not score properly all along which is why it took them 4 mos to add just messing around

Yeah that XM code upon release was just ridiculous and showed no regard for customers. I sure hope the higher ups at Stern do the right thing and dedicate more time to finish this pin for us buyers.

make-it-rain.jpg

Even back in the Williams days, it was a crapshoot if code got finished.

TZ is only the game it is today, because Ted Estes spent a year of his own time finishing the code 5 years latter.

so once a game is out of warranty, or lets say production, how much would it take to pay lyman or the other programmers to finish the game code do you think?

Absent a downright outcry about it to Stern I think Ritchie closed the door on there being another update for XMen. Stern is done with XMen based on the way I heard what he said Friday night.

Probably a few million dollars as they would be in breach of there stern contract and be terminated.

As has been mentioned in the xmen thread, I'd like to know how Ritchie has more knowledge of xmen than Borg.

Man, that might be enough to buy a NIB this time next year . Better go plant another.

QA process? I am not sure what exists at Stern for this. The game shipped with scoring issues that should have been obvious (and I am sure they were preparing to fix) and also a software problem that turned parts of the game extra tasty crispy, and this problem persisted for multiple revisions as they tried to solve it if I recall correctly.

So they may have qa, but they certainly dont haveQA`.

edit: I forgot thank you for the pics and the write up, it sounds like Steve delivered some goods.

I don't think that they really had little choice at the time. They were doing all they could to stay in business. Steve Ritchie was let go too. Pinball made a comeback, they were able to hire Ritchie back, and if Keefer didn't go to JJP...who knows, maybe Stern could have hired him back as well?

I don`t want to speak for him, but from his posts here he has basically said he would rather not work in pinball than go back to Stern. I doubt he is bluffing.

Apparently the Stern software process has issues, who could have guess that from the events over the last year(s).

Poor stellar wars

I swear I don't get this whole code BS......it seems like Stern is just playing out the string and heading off into the sunset without any regard for getting shit done right, they could have crushed the competition if they would just finish the damn code............seriously, wtf!

How do you blatantly screw over Xmen owners and not finish all the other code that needs to get done? He just doesn't give a shit................

This reminds me of Steve Richie's post from 2008 answering Keith Johnson's post about what is ailing Stern:

Hey Keith,

Time to speak to you and everyone else that really cares about
pinball. I have known you to be a real "Pinball Man", and have told
you so to your face many times. There are few people that have been
so dedicated to pinball. I am not going to point to myself, but you
and the folks here know how I feel about pinball, and my dedication to
it. There is a lot more than you allude to as to what has happened to
pinball at Stern. We no longer have anything to lose, so why not be
honest about the hell it was working at Stern. It had its moments of
glory, but the truth is that it was hell to work there if you really
cared about making a quality game that could make customers happy.
See if you don't agree with me when I add the following points.

Point #1 is probably a good idea, except it should have been 2.5
minutes, not 3.

Point #2 is a string of ridiculous limitations enforced by Gary Stern,
except that I agree with the Italian bottom. It is a familiarity that
has been proven to be a good choice, since it is the only knowledge
that bozo players might be able to rely on to protect themselves from
the harsh physics of the effects of gravity. The inner lanes feed the
flippers, and the outer lanes drain the ball. To violate those rules
will inevitably alienate players on some level. I believe it is the
only thing that must remain from game to game, including the permanent
flipper locations and distance between the flippers. The science of
designing pinball and my own long history tell me that I am not
wrong. Yes, we joked many times about the usefulness of the WPT
plunger. We could have saved some money, but Gary wouldn't have it.
There was never a profusion of sanity raining down upon us when it
came to wisdom flowing from the "heavens." The "heavens" were filled
with a madman and a bladder full of piss, and that's what we had to
wade through every day while working at Stern. It was always a crazy
obsessed man that we had to deal with; he was making up the stupid
rules that we had to live with, and the end of pinball is what his
madness has wrought...

Point #3 is another ridiculous rule that we all had to follow while at
Stern. Gary is the one who insisted that every player got to see and
experience "everything" that the pinball machine could do, every
game. It was Gary's ignorant way of trying to make every player
happy, and he probably believes that he is right in enforcing us to
deliver his philosophy to the public. He will never realize the
damage he has done. He will blame everything else for the demise of
pinball.

Point #4 is another correct analysis of the distortion of reality that
was enforced as gospel at Stern . We could have had test locations in
other parts of Chicagoland, but the locations on the South side was
convenient to a person (who shall remain nameless) that was dedicated,
but did not understand the limitations of testing limited by
convenience, and was controlled by logistics instead of "the quest for
true empirical data." We had no choice but to live with the
situation. The truth is that this was the equivalent of no testing at
all. I guess you could say that we gained some insight as to
mechanical reliability, but that data is always contributed by any
test, anywhere.

Now let me "turn your headlights on" with some other observations that
you know to be true. Please, correct me if I am wrong or you
disagree:

My guess is that the experience of working at Stern today is much more
terrible than it was when things were going well, and that Gary's
acting worse than he's ever been. He can make 30 lives miserable
simultaneously in a heartbeat with just one of his "pep-talks", and I
am sure there are many a day.

There are a few of you who have gotten a personal glimpse into the
leader, like Greg Davis (azpinlawyer) and others that actually heard
the ridiculous lecture consisting of "Don't just buy every title we
make, go out on location and play them there, too.", and a lot of
other stupid arguments he makes. Gary and Stern Pinball would have
been so much better off if he had just kept his mouth shut.

He is totally responsible for what's happened to pinball in nearly
every way, and could have done better, maybe even survived the bad
economy if he:

Hadn't consistently ignored some of his best people's suggestions,
observations, and common sense.

Hadn't listened to cronies and lapdogs that suck up, help choose bad
licenses, and act like he's royalty.

Hadn't been so damned caught up in his own ego, the "need to always be
right", and his bad, really bad, and clueless micro-managing of
pinball design, which I was able to ignore nearly all the time, but at
no small cost.

Hadn't spoken to crowds of the pin-faithful and in so many words said
"We don't need you guys! We build pins for Operators!" (How business-
smart is this item? That is a PROFOUND piece of idiocy to fathom!
Think about that for just a second! Wouldn't the president of a
pinball company have to be SEVERELY insane to tell the fans of his
product that they don't matter? It just doesn’t compute with the
greed, either. Why not be the silver-tongued devil that he could be
at times?)

Hadn't picked and enforced the lamest, stinking licenses ever, and
ignored many great licenses.

Hadn't raised prices 3 times in the past year and in a bad economy.
This is true greed and very, very, stupid in a bad year.

Hadn't overworked everyone in the engineering department by shoving
through 4 pinball designs plus redemption games (well, now you know
the real reason for unfinished code, and "late" games) in a year's
time, through an undermanned infrastructure that could only support
about 2.5 completely finished pinball machines a year.

Hadn't greedily demanded that games get built on the production line
prematurely and knowingly unfinished.

Hadn't prevented the programmers (specifically Lyman and yourself)
from making updates for unfinished software: "That's stupid! We
aren't going to sell 1 more SM! Forget It!"

Hadn't ignored all information on the Internet, in fact, demanded that
all employees "Stop reading that RGP Sh*t!!! They're all crazy."
About this one, I had to laugh. He didn't think it was funny. He
really thought that he had the right to tell employees not to read bad
press about Stern on the Internet. He thought that operators and
distributors wouldn't look to rgp for reviews, answers, and problems!
(Here again, PROFOUND, unfathomable ignorance.)

Once, about a year ago, I told Gary in his office that we have a big
PR problem. I actually took the time to explain that RGP is like a
giant bulletin board. Anyone can walk along and read anything that is
there. I explained that right now there were about 3000 negative
posts about SM, and how people were getting VERY upset about the fact
that the code wasn’t finished. He immediately said, “How do we take
things down from the bulletin board?”, and I said “We don’t.” The
only thing he cared abouit was the removal of information! He said,
“Look, it’s not important. I want you to stop reading that stuff,
OK?” “Just forget about it.”

Hadn't over-released parts at some real critical times. For instance,
he knew that none of the designers wanted the FG license because it
was a dangerous non-family oriented entity. It had been sitting
around for years, until he finally made Pat use the license. Pat and
Lonnie made a good game out of it, don't get me wrong, but : THE
DEMOGRAPHICS WERE BAD AND NOT BROAD-BASED!

Families who didn’t want their kids to be playing games in their
basement with farting and puking spoke out by not buying FG. We sold
700. He ordered parts for 1200!! He listened to his cronies instead
of the knowledgeable people around him. His solution? Shrek, which
took forever, stole away resources from the rest of the queue of
games, and didn't break even.

Shrek was a nail in the coffin, maybe not the last one, but certainly
a nail. Why was it was a bad idea?: Distributors looked at it and
said, "Hey, what are you guys trying to pull here? This is a repainted
Family Guy!"

He over-bought again with WOF. There are other problems that I won't
go into now.

I am proud to have worked with you, even though we don't agree on
everything.

Steve

How can we outcry more that what has been?

How did Steve get re-hired after that posting? I guess nobody was allowed on the boards to read it?

You're assuming that Gary can navigate the internet.

Yes, I remember Keith saying that too.

But that's easy to say now. He has a job.

And in light of Ritchie's past comments about Stern (per post above), if Ritchie can forgive all that, well, who knows other than Keefer himself, but he may have been able to as well if his situation were different. I know he's glad to be where he is though.

Well that pretty much says it all right there doesn't it?

What is he, the Kenny Powers of pinball!

Total bs. Thanks Stern. Way to care about your product and customers. I especially "liked" how he says to drop the code on SM because it won't make them more money.

This attitude will catch up with you. Very soon with competition now.

How short sighted, and in fact stupid. For Xmen, they could sell way more pros if they took a few weeks to finish it. Especially with the new movie coming out soon.

I think the solution to X-Men's code will have to come from within the hobby, perhaps a kickstarter program pledging a bounty for finishing the code...I bet the kickstarter code will blow away anything Stern will/can do.

Wow.

Wow, wow, wow.

Well, Stern may not listen to us but they may listen to their distributors. Getting the distributors on board, especially the large ones, may be helpful: "our customers are unhappy, they are threatening not to buy from us anymore because of your uncompleted code, do something about this and finish the game so we stop getting calls and don't lose our goodwill with our customers."

If Stern got those from all the distros it may move them. I don't know. I'm not dissatisfied with XMen as it sits by any means, I love the game and have it ranked number 1 for me personally, but it could use a polish here and there no doubt.

Kenny F ing Stern................after reading that SR post what else do you need to know? There is absolutely no F ing way I will ever buy another Stern pinball machine again until the code is mostly done 2 years later (if ever)....

How can someone be so stupid and egotistical...........He's about to have his ass handed to him.........unless Jack acts more stupid and egotistical than this guy.........

If Stern is not involved, at some level, it won't work with the IP issues.

Because he is the man and I am guessing the investors wanted a real pinball designer and wanted the best.

I see, so you cannot make the code available for free if you write it? What if the bounty was not specifically for the pinball code? No legal way around this?

Gary doesn't care if Steve told him to eat a cock meat sandwich. All Gary cares about is games leaving the building and being sold ans Stevie Ritchie can produce games that sell.

My understanding is Gary doesn't listen to their distributors. That is part of the problem. That is why Jack started his own pinball company.

Come on Ice, you just bought an ACDC.

Dumb as dumb gets (Stern that is)...............why Stern wouldn't outsource the coding at least and get a royalty for updates is beyond me............is he dead set on maintaining a pissed of group of customers? Somebody should finish the code updates for all these Stern pins, charge for them and tell Stern to go F himself because he breached the contract and implied promise with his customers that code would ultimately be completed........

Yeah he was no savior for us either...He's releasing game with unfinished code, and asking for huge money upfront without showing the game first...I hereby anoint him Mr. 10K!

Exactly, with code mostly done and 2 years later! And its a great pin thanks to Steve and Lyman.......I also picked up Lotr le, Wpt, and SM after code being mostly done.......F Stern and thanks to Keith, Ritchie and Lyman for being great on those pins!

Hard to believe what I just read but after that and JJP stuff I'm not sure who's dumber, them or us..............

Curiously, cock meat sandwich was Stern's final unlicensed theme proposal but bean counters shot it down because of lack of demand in Europe.