(Topic ID: 272386)

High tapping williams sys3-6 solenoids

By zacaj

3 years ago


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  • 11 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by slochar
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 3 years ago

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So I was looking into high tapping my Blackout, to make the solenoids stronger. It specifies a lot of jumpers to be added and removed, some on 6P1, some soldered directly to the transformer, and that seemed really complicated compared to newer/older games.

I'm not a transformer expert, but it seems to me like, if you just moved the lower line connection (6P1-1) to connect to 3/7 instead of 4/8 on the transformer, it would accomplish the same thing as all the jumpering they specify, shouldn't it? With no wire on 4/8, the 3-4 and 7-8 windings on the transformer are no longer connected at one end, and would be out of the equation. And since 2+3 and 6+7 are already jumpered on the transformer, connecting the line voltage to 6 is the same as connecting it to 6?

Further, it got me wondering, it looks like the 1-2 and 3-4 windings are going to the lamps/solenoids, while 5-6 and 7-8 are going to the logic and GI. Is that true, or is it just a coincidence of how it's hooked up? If so, could I just move 4->3 and leave 8 where it is, to effectively high tap the coils+lamps while leaving the logic and GI voltages alone? or do I need to move both for it to work?

#2 3 years ago

I only see jumpers for 117vac? Where's the high tap? I didn't think you could high tap solid state transformers, unless they specifically have taps for 110v, 115v, 120v.

You weren't going to put it on 105, were you? That would give you a serious kick in the solenoids, that's for sure. AFAIK that's the setting for Japan.

#3 3 years ago

Clean and re-adjust mechanisms, replace coil sleeves and worn out plungers/coilstops. There is no need to hack the game for more power.

And if you set the transformer primary for lower voltage, it will result in increase of all the secondary voltages. Even if the schematic looks like some sections of secondary only depend on some parts of primary, it is just the drawing. The transformer has one primary, that can be wired in several configurations, and a few secondary windings, that are all dependent of the one primary.

#4 3 years ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

Clean and re-adjust mechanisms, replace coil sleeves and worn out plungers/coilstops. There is no need to hack the game for more power.

This is more an educational question about transformers than needing help with the specific game.

The mechs have all been completely rebuilt with new parts already anyway. I've had a problem on multiple Williams games of this era where some just play much weaker than others, even though they should be the same specs wise; exploring various options to try to address it has sorta become a hobby at this point :/

Quoted from Tuukka:

And if you set the transformer primary for lower voltage, it will result in increase of all the secondary voltages. Even if the schematic looks like some sections of secondary only depend on some parts of primary, it is just the drawing. The transformer has one primary, that can be wired in several configurations, and a few secondary windings, that are all dependent of the one primary.

So why does the line voltage need to be connected in two places then, if there's only one primary winding? I've seen other transformers where there's only one place for the line voltage and they're drawn with one winding... I'm trying to understand exactly how this all works so I can know whether my proposed jumpering change is correct

#5 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

The mechs have all been completely rebuilt with new parts already anyway. I've had a problem on multiple Williams games of this era where some just play much weaker than others, even though they should be the same specs wise; exploring various options to try to address it has sorta become a hobby at this point :/

Yeah, I've noticed this as well. It's not like you can get hotter coils than 23-800's to slap in there (although most are 850's). You could always pull your black knight lower flipper trick and stick the 50v in there for all the coils that would be insane though.

Maybe compromise and use something around the 40v mark?

Quoted from zacaj:

So why does the line voltage need to be connected in two places then, if there's only one primary winding?

Probably for the doubled/halved input voltage when you're going from 120 to 240 or the other way.

#6 3 years ago

So, I did a quick experiment. Disconnected everything from the transformer, checked voltages.

Normal 117 jumpering: solenoid rectifier putting out 26.5VDC, '9.3VAC' at 9.9VAC, '6.3VAC' at 7.0VAC.
Move wire from 4 to 3: 27.8VDC, 10.5VAC, 7.0VAC.
Move wire from 8 to 7: 27.9VDC, 10.5VAC, 7.4VAC.
Move both wires: 29.9VDC, 11.2VAC, 7.9VAC.

So:
- changing the jumpers partially to the 105V setting has different effects on different voltages, but it's nothing clear cut like what I was hoping.
- Moving those two wires produced a 12% change to the power, which is consistent with 105 / 117, so I *think* that I am correct about my simple two wire change being equivilant to the giant list of changes williams lists?
- doing just the 4->3 change seems to be a pretty safe way to get a tiny bit more juice out of the transformer. Bumps the solenoid voltage up ~6%, but leaves the GI voltage the same. I powered the full game on like this after some additional checks, and it works fine. Coils feel a bit stronger, but still not as much as I'd expect compared to other games.
- I was tempted to try the game at 105V setting as most voltages looked okay, but I wasn't sure about the 7.9VAC on the GI. I'm not sure how high the LEDs I have installed are rated. I emailed comet to see what they say, since that also makes me curious
- even a full high tap really doesn't change the voltages /that much/. It seems like even the 117 -> 105 change, which slochar mentioned as being very large compared to the high taps he's used to, is still not anything more than most EMs' high tap options, for example.

Quoted from slochar:

It's not like you can get hotter coils than 23-800's to slap in there (although most are 850's).

I mean, I could I was playing my genie next to it and that has like 23-650s in it stock, as do most gottliebs. On BH and HH they even ran the 650s at 40V!

Quoted from slochar:

You could always pull your black knight lower flipper trick and stick the 50v in there for all the coils that would be insane though.

The 50v flipper conversion I did on Black Knight didn't really make the game play that different, since I used medium strength 50v coils with it. It was just sorta clear that the 25v coils used in BK as well as Blackout are just straining too hard, while the 50v coils aren't being stressed. Sadly I don't have another spare 50v transformer. But to the same point, I think that my BK, even before the 50V upgrade, was one of the williams SS that *didn't* play bad. It played way faster than every other black knight I've ever played, even when stock. I've worked on two gorgars, both with the same work done on them with mechs etc, and one just played noticeably better than the other. Every coil felt stronger and someday I want to really figure out why...

Quoted from slochar:

Probably for the doubled/halved input voltage when you're going from 120 to 240 or the other way

Hmmm, that does sorta make sense. With the 117 jumpering, it uses 1-4 and 5-8 in parallel, while with 235 it runs straight through, 1-8...

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

[quoted image]
So I was looking into high tapping my Blackout, to make the solenoids stronger. It specifies a lot of jumpers to be added and removed, some on 6P1, some soldered directly to the transformer, and that seemed really complicated compared to newer/older games.
I'm not a transformer expert, but it seems to me like, if you just moved the lower line connection (6P1-1) to connect to 3/7 instead of 4/8 on the transformer, it would accomplish the same thing as all the jumpering they specify, shouldn't it? With no wire on 4/8, the 3-4 and 7-8 windings on the transformer are no longer connected at one end, and would be out of the equation.

This will work fine as it is electrically the same as whats in the table. However, be aware that this will raise all the secondary voltages of the transformer, not just solenoids.

Quoted from zacaj:

[quoted image]
Further, it got me wondering, it looks like the 1-2 and 3-4 windings are going to the lamps/solenoids, while 5-6 and 7-8 are going to the logic and GI. Is that true, or is it just a coincidence of how it's hooked up? If so, could I just move 4->3 and leave 8 where it is, to effectively high tap the coils+lamps while leaving the logic and GI voltages alone? or do I need to move both for it to work?

The triple bar through the transformer on the schematic indicates the windings that are magnetically connected. For this transformer, all primary windings are coupled to all the secondary windings. This is to enable the support of various voltages (windings in parallel for lower voltages) and serial for higher voltages. Therefore you cannot up the voltages on a specific secondary winding by high-tapping part of the primary windings.

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

- Moving those two wires produced a 12% change to the power, which is consistent with 105 / 117, so I *think* that I am correct about my simple two wire change being equivilant to the giant list of changes williams lists?
- doing just the 4->3 change seems to be a pretty safe way to get a tiny bit more juice out of the transformer. Bumps the solenoid voltage up ~6%, but leaves the GI voltage the same. I powered the full game on like this after some additional checks, and it works fine. Coils feel a bit stronger, but still not as much as I'd expect compared to other games..

I'm not sure if this is a good idea. Not sure it is a bad idea either. You are, however, placing a larger strain on one set of primary windings vs the other by wiring them differently like that.

#9 3 years ago

Something that I do occasionally on other than classic stern games is install the plastic rod and ring onto pop bumpers - my black knight has this and the response on the pop is ridiculously quick. I only do this on games I know I'm keeping very long term (BK I've had almost 31 years now....)

The other thing I've tried is I built a protoboard with 3 one shot circuits on it to put into BK for the pop and slings, it's basically 3 pop bumper driver boards in one, so that I got a consistent pop/sling out of each of them, even with a short pulse. I absolutely *HATED* the way it played - it felt so 'wrong'. I should probably revisit this because this was years ago before I've grown to appreciate really responsive slings. I'd do it completely differently at this point, I'd make a daughter board to go into the special solenoid inputs to do the one shot instead of the under-playfield board mounting I'd used back then.

I'd already replaced the cap/resistor combo that is supposed to give a consistent pulse, there's something analog-y about the RC network that I like.

I should look through my used coil box and see if I can get some hot rod coils for it as well, nothing wrong with that.

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from slochar:

I'd already replaced the cap/resistor combo that is supposed to give a consistent pulse, there's something analog-y about the RC network that I like.

Replaced as in, with new parts, or removed?

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Replaced as in, with new parts, or removed?

Replaced with new parts. Would probably work really weakly with parts removed!

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