(Topic ID: 317406)

High Speed Power Surge...Please Help.

By HondoMonkey

1 year ago


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#1 1 year ago

I have this strange issue happening on my HS. Once I switch the power on, everything seems fine in attract mode (with a low hum that's not too unusual). But, I then hear some sort of power surge ramping up at exactly 1 minute and 30 seconds. Don't know how important that is, but it is consistently at that time period. The low hum through the speaker suddenly (and rapidly) surges up at that exact time.

If you can turn your volume up, I think you can probably hear it in this video of the final 10 seconds; for obvious reasons, I shut it off before it gets too far:

I'm also attaching a picture of my power supply board. I've already tested the +12, +5 and ground going to the MPU, which all checked out fine.

I don't know how common this is, but I can't find any other posts that mention a surge at this specific timeframe. I'm rather new at this, but would love any feedback where to start troubleshooting this problem. Thanks so much.

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#2 1 year ago

This kind of repair isn't my jam, but my first thought is with the speaker ground wires(s), like a ground loop.

Need someone else to throw out their thoughts though. I'm not 100% on that one.

#3 1 year ago

Try turning attract mode sound and beacon off see if behavior changes. I can't hear anything on the video it's too low on my phone.

I doubt it's a surge though. Game play OK otherwise and pass sound/solenoid tests?

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

Try turning attract mode sound and beacon off see if behavior changes. I can't hear anything on the video it's too low on my phone.
I doubt it's a surge though. Game play OK otherwise and pass sound/solenoid tests?

I'm almost almost certain you've got failing cap(s) on the sound board. The noise is increasing as the charge up and warm up. You've also got an old original +5VDC cap on the power supply (the large brown 18,000uf on the left in your photo). That should be replaced. Use a DMM/Voltmeter to check AC ripple voltage on the caps on the sound board if you want to start troubleshooting there, or just do what many others do and recap the board.

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from wayout440:

I'm almost almost certain you've got failing cap(s) on the sound board. The noise is increasing as the charge up and warm up. You've also got an old original +5VDC cap on the power supply (the large brown 18,000uf on the left in your photo). That should be replaced. Use a DMM/Voltmeter to check AC ripple voltage on the caps on the sound board if you want to start troubleshooting there, or just do what many others do and recap the board.

That would certainly make sense about the failing caps, as I've been told to replace the ones on the power supply already. I'm attaching a new photo of my sound card, and it looks like the only two on the board are the 35v 100uf cap (black in the middle) and a 25v 10uf (grey on the left). Assuming these are the ones we're talking about, right? Will get all the replacement caps ordered tonight.

I did check/secure the screws on my boards to minimize ground loop, @ThePinballCo-op, and have the speaker wire isolated from any others. Oddly, it seemed to make the hum louder, but that could just be me... And, yes, @slochar, it was functioning normally earlier. I haven't run the tests recently but will also trouble shoot those areas you recommended.

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone...I'll update as soon as I get the caps replaced.

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#6 1 year ago

That's not really the "sound board". Most system 11 sounds some from the sound section on the main board. That smaller board only provides the background ("B/G") music. You can disconnect it and (and may need to move the volume control from 11J2 to 1J16) to see if the problem goes away. That will at least isolate the problem to either the sound section of the CPU or the B/G sound board.

#7 1 year ago

Forgot to add this part (rather important)...I'm working with a Pin-Bot MPU (11a) board in the High Speed (11) game. When I put the old acid-damaged board back in, the hum "surge" went away. However, that board has other problems (target lights don't work; stop light doesn't work).

So...I'd like to use the 11a board but am trying to determine if the "surge" is coming from bad caps or if it has something to do with my set up. I didn't make any modifications, but just plugged everything back in where it would typically be (and this Pin-Bot board clearly 1J15 already)...I have speakers @ 1J15; volume control on the sound card, and 1J16 connected back up to the sound card. I'm getting ready to re-cap, but wanted to see if I just missed something.

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from Mthomasslo:

That's not really the "sound board". Most system 11 sounds some from the sound section on the main board. That smaller board only provides the background ("B/G") music. You can disconnect it and (and may need to move the volume control from 11J2 to 1J16) to see if the problem goes away. That will at least isolate the problem to either the sound section of the CPU or the B/G sound board.

Unplugged and moved the volume control from 11J2 to 1J16, but still have the "surge" sound.

#9 1 year ago

When trying to diagnose this problem, another popped up (go figure). All of the controlled playfield lamps just aren't lighting. None are lighting at all (aside from a couple in the backbox). I've checked the fuse, but see nothing burnt out. I've tried the test mode, and "All Lamps" doesn't light any of the controlled lamps. "Single Lamps" test is no better, just displaying "Game Over" on the display. So, any idea where to look first when all of the controlled lamps aren't working?

#10 1 year ago

You swapped the MPU, do you have a connector lodged behind the board?

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from HondoMonkey:

Unplugged and moved the volume control from 11J2 to 1J16, but still have the "surge" sound.

Suspect a Faulty AMP and or Caps

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#12 1 year ago
Quoted from Jmckune:

You swapped the MPU, do you have a connector lodged behind the board?

I've swapped the board several times and triple-checked the connections. Nothing behind the board.

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from Mthomasslo:

That's not really the "sound board". Most system 11 sounds some from the sound section on the main board. That smaller board only provides the background ("B/G") music. You can disconnect it and (and may need to move the volume control from 11J2 to 1J16) to see if the problem goes away. That will at least isolate the problem to either the sound section of the CPU or the B/G sound board.

Completely disconnected the "sound board" from the system and am still having the problem.

Quoted from PINTEC:

Suspect a Faulty AMP and or Caps
[quoted image]

So...I think we've isolated the "humming surge" problem to the 11a MPU, as you've noted @pintec. After ruling out the audio board, I plugged the old MPU back into the HS, ran few music/audio tests, and the surge went away. So, I've ordered new caps and amplifier for the 11a board and will wait.

In regards to the controlled lamps, it must have been a loose connection somewhere, because after I went in and re-sat everything, they all seemed to come back (go figure).

But, in the meantime, I've a High Speed machine back up and running! I'll come back and update this post once I get the new amp/caps in and tested. Thanks everyone for your help with this one!

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#14 1 year ago

I may have taken a victory lap a bit too soon...After about 2 days, the music suddenly went out. My understanding is that the background music comes from the sound card (U4 B/G Sound ROM), through the 20-pin ribbon cable, to the MPU. Is this correct? Or does it come through the 1J16? Because it worked before, I'm trying to determine where the glitch might be coming from...MPU starts with a single ping. So, leaving the HS in MUSIC TEST mode:

- I've switched the ribbon cable (verifying the #1 pins alighted), but still no music. (However...I've had this strange situation where after unplugging it one of the times, some remaining music briefly played or played distorted, while unplugged).

- I also noticed that the 20-pin connection on the sound card seems to not be seated all the way down. When I took the board off, and looked at the other side, this seems to be original and not something that has moved over time (again, it was working for quite some time before). Still...Seems like a logical place to start, right?

Ruling out the ribbon cable, I'm trying to determine if the music issue is a sound card issue or an MPU issue.

Any guidance of suggestions would be hugely helpful. As always, thanks for your input.

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#15 1 year ago

For most sys 11 games, speech is generated from the MPU while music is from the sound board. One bong at startup means the game thinks the sound board is booting properly.

#16 1 year ago

The audio goes through the 4 pin connector, the ribbon cable carries address, data, reset etc and "tells" the Background Music to play or stop (and which tune to play, in games where there's more than one)

#17 1 year ago

Ruled out the ribbon cable? Did you replace it with a new one? About 90% of the time sound problems on system 11 are caused by LACK OF A GAS TIGHT SEAL on connectors.
Repeated plugging and unplugging of the ribbon cable weakens the male to female connection. Additional unplugging plugging in these cables does not fix the problem. Occasionally it corrects sound problems, but often is short lived. The only way to rule out the data cable connection with certainty is to replace that cable and repin those headers.

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from Mthomasslo:

The audio goes through the 4 pin connector, the ribbon cable carries address, data, reset etc and "tells" the Background Music to play or stop (and which tune to play, in games where there's more than one)

So, theoretically, the music could be coming through fine via the 4-pin, but could potentially be halted/stopped via the ribbon cable communication to the MPU. Correct? If so, I would imagine a process of elimination first. (Again, forgive my newness to this, but I still have some basic questions)...Using my DMM, could you please tell me how to test the four pin against the schematics uploaded to verify that the music coming to the MPU is not the issue? Then, same question via the ribbon cable. Appreciate any input or advice. Thanks!

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#19 1 year ago

A DMM isn't go help you much. You are going to need an oscilloscope to troubleshoot the analog audio path. For the digital audio, you will need either an oscilloscope (preferred) or possibly a logic probe (the logic probe can only tell highs, lows and pulses so it has some limitations)

The ribbon cable carries digital data that is used to create the sounds and voices, by talking to the sound ROMS that hold those audio samples and sending data to the digital to audio converters, which output analog audio signals that are amplified. By using divide and conquer troubleshooting, the usual starting point is to look for analog audio with a scope being spit out of the converters. If you have no audio there, you look for data problems upstream (can become complicated), if you have the audio there, move down the audio pipe and see where it gets lost.

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Ruled out the ribbon cable? Did you replace it with a new one? About 90% of the time sound problems on system 11 are caused by LACK OF A GAS TIGHT SEAL on connectors.
Repeated plugging and unplugging of the ribbon cable weakens the male to female connection. Additional unplugging plugging in these cables does not fix the problem. Occasionally it corrects sound problems, but often is short lived. The only way to rule out the data cable connection with certainty is to replace that cable and repin those headers.

Perhaps "ruled out" might be a bit overly confirmed. I switched the ribbon cable with another and had the same results; I suppose there could potentially be two defunct ribbon cables. So, is the gas tight seal only needed on the 20-pin connection (and not the 4-pin)? Is there any way to test it prior to removing/replacing the 20-pin connectors on the sound card (and possibly the MPU)? Also, looking at the picture, do you think that gap under the 20-pin on the sound board could potentially be causing the problem? Thanks again!

#21 1 year ago

The gap isn't a probelm as long as all the pins are soldered correctly.

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from wayout440:

The gap isn't a probelm as long as all the pins are soldered correctly.

If the gap is not a problem, I'm confused where the gas tight seal is actually needed (at the 20-pin to the ribbon cable?).

Also, if I understand your post earlier regarding the path of audio, the method to "look for analog audio with a scope being spit out of the converters" is on the MPU and not the sound card (upstream). Correct?

(Quick background: This MPU has recently come back from a reputable technician who repaired some tracing issues and told me everything was tested and working...and I do show a 0 at U46 and single ping at startup. My concern is that this was not a problem prior to sending the MPU out for repair...So, I'm trying to see if it's the sound card or the MPU)

Regarding the oscilloscope, I'm still learning the DMM, so it's really a question of how frequently I'll use the scope (not to mention the price). Can you possibly recommend an inexpensive one for beginners?

#23 1 year ago

The gas tight seal is the male to female pin connection between a cable and a board header of any type
(read some good info here: http://www.pinrepair.com/connect/)

Correct, on the path of analog audio. Below is the schematic of sys 11 MPU (hope you can locate a clearer copy than what is online)
Summarized, the PIA U9 is sending data to the DAC U2 on the far left, then the analog output of sound and effects is moving through the sound/speech mixer "right to left" on the schematic, then out connector IJ16 pin 1 to the 11J1 on the sound board to get mixed with background sound and back out to the MPU, then through that little bit of circuitry at the bottom of the schematic out to 1J15 to the speakers.

From what I see in the thread, you have no music, but you DO have sound effects and/or speech? correct?

If you plan on using the scope for more than this repair, they are always a useful tool for many types of electronics. If you don't, perhaps you can find someone local through your friends and family network that can let you borrow one. Pinball machine work doesn't require a fancy or feature loaded scope - just about any oscilloscope will work for some basic troubleshooting.

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from wayout440:

The gas tight seal is the male to female pin connection between a cable and a board header of any type
(read some good info here: http://www.pinrepair.com/connect/)
Correct, on the path of analog audio. Below is the schematic of sys 11 MPU (hope you can locate a clearer copy than what is online)
Summarized, the PIA U9 is sending data to the DAC U2 on the far left, then the analog output of sound and effects is moving through the sound/speech mixer "right to left" on the schematic, then out connector IJ16 pin 1 to the 11J1 on the sound board to get mixed with background sound and back out to the MPU, then through that little bit of circuitry at the bottom of the schematic out to 1J15 to the speakers.
From what I see in the thread, you have no music, but you DO have sound effects and/or speech? correct?
If you plan on using the scope for more than this repair, they are always a useful tool for many types of electronics. If you don't, perhaps you can find someone local through your friends and family network that can let you borrow one. Pinball machine work doesn't require a fancy or feature loaded scope - just about any oscilloscope will work for some basic troubleshooting.

Excellent! I'll certainly be reading about gas-tight Molex connections today (thanks for sending the link). And, yes, I have all other sounds/speech, but am simply missing all of the music. Interestingly, I had it working for about 24-hours on this machine and MPU, then it suddenly stopped (nothing else was changed in that timeframe).

With the oscilloscope, the JYE Tech DSO150 seems to be a real basic digital one for about $30-$35. Should this do the job for basic audio troubleshooting?
ebay.com link: itm

#25 1 year ago
Quoted from wayout440:

The gas tight seal is the male to female pin connection between a cable and a board header of any type
(read some good info here: http://www.pinrepair.com/connect/)
Correct, on the path of analog audio. Below is the schematic of sys 11 MPU (hope you can locate a clearer copy than what is online)
Summarized, the PIA U9 is sending data to the DAC U2 on the far left, then the analog output of sound and effects is moving through the sound/speech mixer "right to left" on the schematic, then out connector IJ16 pin 1 to the 11J1 on the sound board to get mixed with background sound and back out to the MPU, then through that little bit of circuitry at the bottom of the schematic out to 1J15 to the speakers.
From what I see in the thread, you have no music, but you DO have sound effects and/or speech? correct?
If you plan on using the scope for more than this repair, they are always a useful tool for many types of electronics. If you don't, perhaps you can find someone local through your friends and family network that can let you borrow one. Pinball machine work doesn't require a fancy or feature loaded scope - just about any oscilloscope will work for some basic troubleshooting.

So...I'm somewhat following, but am clearly getting lost. I've uploaded a higher-res photo of the schematics (highlighted areas mentioned). Here's what I understand: Music comes in to the Peripheral Interface Adapter (PIA) U9 to the Digital to Analog Converter (DAC) U2...I think it follows out IO4 from U2 and heads to the Sound/Speed Mixer. From there, I'm not exactly tracking how it then moves out IJ16 pin 1 (volume control?) to the sound board then back to the MPU (through IJ16 pin 2?), until it leaves the speaker at IJ15. Am I anywhere close to correct?

MPU_Sounds (resized).jpgMPU_Sounds (resized).jpg
#26 1 year ago

System 11s can get confusing. If I remember correctly, only the effects and speech is produced on the MPU (U9&U2) on HS. The music is created on the background sound board and mixed in there (but there is an interface between the MPU and the sound board...so no background sound CAN be a problem with either board) Then the complete audio signal of consisiting of effects, speech, and music is trucked back to the MPU again where it goes out the speakers.

I used to have a HS, which would have been ideal as I could tell you exactly what to look for on the signals. I dont even have a system 11 anymore, but have repaired a few.

That scope will be fine, as you are just looking for audio waveforms like in the picture below. I think you first need to have an analog audio wav present at the signal labeled "BG SOUND" on the background sound board schematic during when the music is supposed to be playing.
audio-wave-form-on-oscilloscope-260nw-136130 (resized).jpgaudio-wave-form-on-oscilloscope-260nw-136130 (resized).jpg

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from PINTEC:

Suspect a Faulty AMP and or Caps
[quoted image]

That was it! The power surge problem on the 11a board came down to faulty capacitors. Changed them and that specific board (and machine) are working smoothly. Still trying to figure out the missing background music issue on the original High Speed (11) board, and hoping the oscilloscope coming at the end of the week will put me on the right path. As always, any advice is gratefully accepted.

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