High Speed, MPU boots, but no attract mode, need idea about what to check next

I got this game dead.

The MPU shows a "0" on start up, so I think that means it is booting correctly. I press SW2 and "8" appears then goes back to "0"

But the game does not go into attract mode, nothing ever comes up on the display screens (though I can see the dull glow inside the displays which makes me think they are getting power).

-I never hear any sounds, even when I press the SW1 (which I think is the sound test).
-I never hear any coils fire. The GI does turn on.
-All of the test points show the correct voltage.
-I removed and tested every fuse.

I traced out every PIA chip on the MPU according to Clay's manual, very boring, but I found no broken traces. The board has some acid damage, but apparently not enough to break any of the traces.

The game just will not go into attract mode, so I can't do any diagnostic work.

What will make an MPU board "boot", but not have the pin go into attract mode? I am out of ideas about where to look/what to test.

Feel free to list possible things that I claimed to have tested if you think that is the likely culprit. I will check again.

#2 11 years ago

DOC

doctor_pinball

Doctor Pinball

Bucharest

11y 54,150 557 57 34

what is shown on displays ??/

#3 11 years ago

???

mg81

Pinside member

Nothing, the displays never show anything at any point.

All I see is the glow along the bottom edge of the display that I always see when a display has power but nothing is currently being displayed. I hope that makes sense.

For some reason the MPU diagnostic LED is showing it is good to go, but it is not switching into attract mode. No sound, no display, no controlled lamps.

I am guessing something is damaged on the MPU, but I am not sure where to even being looking.

#4 11 years ago

ROB

Borygard

You've likely got blanking issues due to the battery leakage. People take leaking batteries way too lightly. If there's battery leakage and the CPU isn't doing what it's supposed to, you've got far more damage than what you think you see with your eyes.

Time to look for a replacement CPU, find someone to take the battery leakage on as repair, or hunker down and spend a great deal of time reading up on blanking, checking all data and address lines and repairing the damage.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587

#5 11 years ago

CMX

viperrwk

Inactive member

New Haven, CT

12y 42,650 4,167

As Rob suggests, battery leakage is pernicious. Probably the number one killer of pinball machines. The traces below the battery are very delicate and easily damaged. Though finding a replacement Sys11 CPU board is EXTREMELY difficult. You have a lot of work ahead of you.

viperrwk

#6 11 years ago

???

mg81

Pinside member

Thanks for the replies. I understand that the battery leakage can be a huge problem. Which is why I spent all of the time checking every single trace that runs in that area (and all of the PIA chip traces, 10 pages worth in Clay's manual)

I only found two that had high resistance and ran an additional trace just to be sure. I was putting my probes onto the chip legs or the connector pins, not the solder joints. I wanted to be sure that the power was actually flowing into the component.

Rob, when you say the blanking circuit. Am I to assume that just because the CPU LED flashes up an "8" and than goes back to "0" that does NOT prove that blanking circuit works?

The following is from the manual I am referencing:

0 = Test Passed (games goes to attract mode). BUT if zero displayed during memory chip test, this means the blanking circuit is bad!
1 = CPU board lockup. Check memory protection circuit and U25 RAM.
2 = U27 game EPROM bad.
3 = U26 game EPROM bad.
4 = Unused.
5 = Blanking signal "stuck". Could be coin door is closed and memory protection circuit faulty, or U25 RAM bad. If the coin door is closed, open the door and if all is good, a "0" code should appear (this may require press the Diag button again with the coin door open).
7 = No 12 volts to CPU board, or bad/blank game EPROM(s).
8 = Blanking Circuit is working correctly (displayed during memory chip test only).
No Indication = System failure. Check +5 volts, or U26 game EPROM bad.

I don't mind putting in the time to learn, I just don't want to be chasing false leads.

Thanks again for the help.

#7 11 years ago

ROB

Borygard

In my experience on System 11 boards and battery leakage, a board can "pass" self-diagnostics, but still have damaged traces/components causing blanking issues. Which is exactly what you're describing, game boots, but no displays (blanking), no attract lights (/blanking), no solenoids (/blanking).

If you want to troubleshoot yourself, start at where blanking begins, follow the schematics through the circuit checking all components and traces through all areas of blanking and /blanking. You'll find problems along the way in at least one spot.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587

#8 11 years ago

???

mg81

Pinside member

http://home.scarlet.be/~fb054529/will11/ewill11.htm

Rob,

Thanks for the reply. Any sites that you (or anyone else) could recommend that explain blanking in depth?

#9 11 years ago

DOC

doctor_pinball

Doctor Pinball

Bucharest

11y 54,150 557 57 34

Repair Williams CPU-board type 11.

#10 11 years ago

???

mg81

Pinside member

So I happen to have a working Pin-Bot that has a MPU with an 1J15 connector already on it. Apparently I am the lucky owner of one of the rare ones with a System 11 board. It has two LEDs instead of the "seven segment" LED (the number) for diagnostics.

Just to make sure I am not chasing the wrong thing I figured I would swap the MPU into my dead High Speed. What do I have to swap onto the board, just the U21, U22, U26, U27 to have the board fully work so I can fully test the game out?

Thanks

#11 11 years ago

ABC

arakissun

Pinside member

Varna

12y 63,650 1,995

Yes,only these U21, U22, U26, U27

#12 11 years ago

BAD

Brtlkat

Pinside member

Fort Pierce, FL

11y 52,050 1,511 14

If its not going in to attract mode it is not fully booting up. Try to open the coin door and then turn the power on an off kinda of fast to bypass the batteries. Maybe then this will boot into the attract mode and then go from there, If it does boot and you have no displays you have a power supply issue, In the 100volt section.

#13 11 years ago

DAV

wayout440

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from mg81: The MPU shows a "0" on start up, so I think that means it is booting correctly. I press SW2 and "8" appears then goes back to "0"

This is a correct indication, according to the High Speed manual on page 27, after pressing the CPU memory test button, the test requires 1.5 seconds to complete. An '8' displayed during the test indicates the blanking circuit IS functioning. (A zero displayed DURING this test would indicate it is not functioning). When the displayed digit returns to zero following the test, this indicates the test passed, and the game goes into game over mode.

#14 11 years ago

ROB

Borygard

Quoted from Brtlkat:
If its not going in to attract mode it is not fully booting up. Try to open the coin door and then turn the power on an off kinda of fast to bypass the batteries. Maybe then this will boot into the attract mode and then go from there, If it does boot and you have no displays you have a power supply issue, In the 100volt section.

Quoted from wayout440:
This is a correct indication, according to the High Speed manual on page 27, after pressing the CPU memory test button, the test requires 1.5 seconds to complete. An '8' displayed during the test indicates the blanking circuit IS functioning. (A zero displayed DURING this test would indicate it is not functioning). When the displayed digit returns to zero following the test, this indicates the test passed, and the game goes into game over mode.

Let's see, one says the game is booting normally, the other says it's not completely booting, yet you both seem to miss the fact that the CPU seems to boot normally, but does nothing.

mg81, the Williams blanking circuit doesn't get much more simple. It supplies an "OK" signal to the high voltage circuits to prevent solenoids, lamps, and displays from locking on if the CPU isn't running and burning things up.

Confirm what I suspect by jumpering 5V to 1J22 pin 2. You'll see the displays come on and display normally.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587

#15 11 years ago

???

mg81

Pinside member

Rob,
I am not going to be able to do anything with the game until this evening. I will report back.

BTW, all of the test point voltage check out and the output pins for the displays check out on the power supply as correct. I don't think I have a power supply issue.

Thanks for staying with me on this problem.

#16 11 years ago

DAV

wayout440

Pinside member

Quoted from Borygard:
Let's see, one says the game is booting normally, the other says it's not completely booting, yet you both seem to miss the fact that the CPU seems to boot normally, but does nothing.
mg81, the Williams blanking circuit doesn't get much more simple. It supplies an "OK" signal to the high voltage circuits to prevent solenoids, lamps, and displays from locking on if the CPU isn't running and burning things up.
Confirm what I suspect by jumpering 5V to 1J22 pin 2. You'll see the displays come on and display normally.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587

I never said it was booting normally, Rob. I only quoted that the results of pressing the test button indicate the blanking circuits pass the self test, as per the manual. In my opinion you cannot consider a game to be 'booting' until it does actually get to attract mode. There are always games that get through boot sequence indicators and halt before running the game program.

I hope you are right, I hope it is simply a blanking circuit issue that the self test cannot indicate. But it also could be something else, like the power really isn't good and we are just taking the ops word for it that he knows what he is doing. Let's wait and see what else the op reports back with your suggestion though.

#17 11 years ago

KRN

TheKorn

Pinside member

Chicago, IL

12y 51,300 323 26

And now for something completely different.

Turn the game on. Wait five seconds. Make sure auto-up is in the up position.

Push advance and release it. Wait two seconds.

Push advance and release it. Wait another two seconds.

Push advance and release it. Wait a second. (Or two, doesn't really matter at that point.)

Now, push and HOLD advance down for fifteen seconds or so. While you're holding advance, watch the playfield lights CAREFULLY. What you're looking for is the attract mode to start then quickly extinguish.

If you see the attract mode start up and then extinguish, then good news -- your CPU is booting. Bad news -- your sound section is borked, and so is something in the display section. (outgassed displays, big logic problem, etc.)

#18 11 years ago

???

mg81

Pinside member

TheKorn, tried your suggested test twice, no change in the GI.

Rob, I jumpered 5 volts from TP1 on the PS to 1J22 pin 2 (the far right bottom pin if the board is installed). No change on the display, but the diagnostic LED on the MPU immediately changed from a "0" to an "8". If I remove the jumpers power it goes back to "0". Me pressing SW2 does not make the "8" go away when the jumper is attached supplying 5v to the pin.

Wayout, please don't take my word for very much. When it comes to electronics I am an amateur (though a highly motivated one). If I give a result that does not make sense, tell me to retest. I won't be offended.

Other ideas?

As a last ditch idea, as I previously mentioned I have a PinBot that has board with an 1J15 connector installed. I think that mean it is a Sys 11 board and could be put into my High Speed.

Interestingly my PinBot is not using the 1J15 connector. Does that mean that my PinBot could use a sys 11A replacement board (which I think are available)? From all of the markings on the my PinBot board I am pretty sure it is not the original MPU for that pin.

Thanks

#19 11 years ago

DAV

wayout440

Pinside member

Pinbot should be a System 11A. Even if it turns out to be a System 11 (not A) that is in there you can sub it into the High Speed. System 11 will have a 7 segment digit display for the diagnostic on the board. Connector IJ15 doesn't use ground at pins 6 & 7 on the System 11, so if you want to use the System 11 from High Speed in your System 11A game you would need a jumper wire to ground for these pins or the special solenoids won't work.

Back to your original problem... Please report back your power supply voltages, where you measured them and check the +5VDC logic on the MPU and report back both the actual DC voltage and AC ripple voltage as measured there.

Problems with the POR (Power on reset) circuit can cause similar issues. From the guide:

System 11 games can develop a problem with the POR (Power On Reset) circuit. If this circuit isn't working correctly, often you won't get the CPU to boot-up consistently, or at all. This can mean a "7", "8" or blank in the LED diagnostics box (system 11) or 7 or 8 LED flashes system 11a, b, c).

One thing that can cause the POR circuit to no operate is out of spec +5 volts. This can be caused by a bad +5 volt bridge or filter capacitor. The easiest thing to do is to isolate the power supply from the CPU board. To do this, remove the CPU board from the backbox. Then power the CPU board from an external power supply (as described below). If the problem still exists (inconsistent CPU booting), the problem is on the CPU board itself.

#20 11 years ago

DAV

wayout440

Pinside member

If it turns out to not be the power supply, and the problem is actually on the CPU board...I would suspect that you have more battery acid damage and just don't see it.

#21 11 years ago

???

mg81

Pinside member

So to simplify the power supply issue. I just swapped power supplies between my PinBot and High Speed. My PinBot still works and the High Speed is still showing a "0" on the LED, and "8" when I press SW2 that switches back to "0" after a few seconds. But it still does not go into attract mode.

So the only way I think it could be a power issue is if a cable/pin/connector is bad. Anywhere I should be testing with my DDM on the MPU to rule this issue out?

Any other ideas for me other than to just swap in my PinBot MPU into the High Speed? Attached are two photos of the board that is in my PinBot game. Can anyone ID this board for me? Are replacement boards available for my PinBot if I steal it for the High Speed? Also I did not remove any connectors from the PinBot board, is the 1J15 ever connected on any of the PinBots?

Thanks for the help

20130305_220936.jpg 20130305_220925.jpg

#22 11 years ago

???

mg81

Pinside member

So an interesting bit of info that may help. I left the game on for a while I was off doing other things just to see if things "warming up" caused anything to happen, it did.

I came back to all of the controlled lamps on row 3 lighted, transistor Q82. The lights were flickering on and off. Sometimes staying lighted for a few minutes, than flickering on and off for a while. than lighted for a few minutes. No rhythm or pattern. Also if I press SW2 button those controlled lamps will immediatly go out, but then come back on once the MPU has "rebooted" and is showing a "0" again.

Does this reveal any thing?

#23 11 years ago

DAV

wayout440

Pinside member

Technically you should have used TP2 (visible in your second pic) to measure the 5V. But that's no matter, I don't think it is power related now that you have verified with another supply. You can go ahead and swap the Pinbot MPU in, somebody did the header work on IJ15 already for you - this is the speaker connection:

The most flexible CPU board is system11A. The system11A CPU board can be used
in any 1986-1990 sys11, sys11b or sys11c game The only exception is if the
sys11A CPU board is going into a original sys11 game (High Speed, Road Kings, or
Grand Lizard). In this case, connector 1J15 (four pins, .156" molex male header)
must be added to the sys11a CPU board (that's all that needs to be done).

Odd light problem...that's not good. Sounds like the PIA controlling that section is confused. Might be any IC tied to the data/address buss. Thinking this is related to the corrosion damage. You probably need that MPU board looked at by a pro, at least that would be fastest way to get a second pair of eyes on it. Unless you feel like learning an o'scope or logic probe and want to spend a lot of time on Pinside message boards.

#24 11 years ago

ROB

Borygard

I wish I was able to keep up with threads better, but it seems you're in good hands with wayout440.

My apologies for an error in my post about 1J22, I said jumper 5V to pin2 of 1J22, that should be jumper ground to pin 2 of 1J22. That will bring up your displays if my hunch is correct.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587

#25 11 years ago

???

mg81

Pinside member

Rob,

Sorry to say that the board has been removed and swapped for another, so I won't be able to test out your theory. Can I just attach the power(can't remember which 1J__ that is) and 1J22 to test out your theory and not fully reattach the board?

I would like to learn how to fix the board, but I am probably going to get a new replacement board and just sell this one. I hate to destroy a hard to find original sys 11 board that does not have a replacement being made for it. I would rather cut my teeth on a junk board that already has replacements being made for it.

Thanks for the help everyone.

#26 11 years ago

ROB

Borygard