I need help diagnosing my High Speed Pinball.
When running a coil test the following coils do not click:
All Flippers
All Pop Bumbers
Both right and left hideaways - but they do have a faint clicking, just not firing.
Thanks in advance.
I need help diagnosing my High Speed Pinball.
When running a coil test the following coils do not click:
All Flippers
All Pop Bumbers
Both right and left hideaways - but they do have a faint clicking, just not firing.
Thanks in advance.
I had a similar problem and it turned out to be that when I was reconnecting connectors to the mpu I put one of them in the wrong place. J9 is unused on high speed but I mixed it up with I believe j10. Once I switched them, everything was fine. There's a bunch of other things it could be , but that's one of them.
Did you try shorting out the transistor tabs to see if you can get the coils to fire? Also check the molex connectors under the playfield.
Quoted from Jared1862:All Flippers
They don't work in coil test in non fliptronic games.
Quoted from Jared1862:All Pop Bumbers
I don't think they work on early system11 pins, but I can check on mine.
Quoted from Jared1862:Both right and left hideaways - but they do have a faint clicking, just not firing.
You are hearing the relays under the playfield clicking, there is a 2.5 slow blow fuse that powers just these two coils. It may be blown.
I replaced the fuses in the backbox, am I missing one on the playfield?
Is there a transistor on the mpu board that would cause all of these not to work?
Basically, when I turn it on. It loads the game, kicks out the ball to play but the flippers don't work, pops don't work and both hideaways.
I'm a novice not sure on how to short out the transistor tab, but if explained I'm sure I can do it.
I'm trying to follow the wires back to the mpu board, but it's a headache... Any idea what connection(s) they are?
I'll double check all of the molex connectors again. Thanks for the help!
Quoted from Jared1862:I'm trying to follow the wires back to the mpu board, but it's a headache..
No need to do that because its all in the manual for easy repairing.
Quoted from Jared1862:I replaced the fuses in the backbox,
I think its a single fuse holder down by the bottom of the backbox by the right head bolt.
Quoted from Jared1862:I'm a novice not sure on how to short out the transistor tab, but if explained I'm sure I can do it.
Maybe to soon for that right now, in your first post you didn't say that they didn't work at all.
Do you have a DMM?
Download the manual here:
http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1176/Williams_1986_High_Speed_Instruction_Manual.pdf
It contains the schematics.
You should be able to look at the common denominator for all of the affected items.
Good Luck!
Here is how I test coils. Page 25 in the manual shows the solenoid table. This shows what transistor powers each coil. For the jet bumpers you can see that Transistors Q69, Q73 and Q77 control those pops. If you find those transistors on the on the main board, you can run a wire from a ground point and put the other end of the wire on the transistor tab (the bare metal hole on it). This will activate the coil. If the coil activates you know you are good from the transistor to the coil and your problem is more upstream.
I once had high speed flipper problems and there is a molex connector underneath the playfield that interconnects the mpu wires to the playfield components. Make sure that looks good and connected with no pins pushed out.
There also might be a fuse under the playfield. Its been a while since I had my high speed.
Did you just start having problems or is this how you received the machine?
Quoted from TVP:Here is how I test coils. Page 25 in the manual shows the solenoid table. This shows what transistor powers each coil. For the jet bumpers you can see that Transistors Q69, Q73 and Q77 control those pops. If you find those transistors on the on the main board, you can run a wire from a ground point and put the other end of the wire on the transistor tab (the bare metal hole on it). This will activate the coil. If the coil activates you know you are good from the transistor to the coil and your problem is more upstream.
It should be noted, since the OP is clearly a novice in this area, that you should NOT leave the coil energized in this fashion for more than a few seconds at most. Ground the tab and if it fires the coil quickly remove the jumper wire.
That fuse was bad, so now the hideaways fire!
However, I still have a mess. I bought this at an auction pretty cheap, now I know why...
The previous owner replaced both flipper coils, two pop bumpers coils (neither look to be the correct coil). Also he added diodes in an unusual way, or at least to me.
When I run the coil test now the below do not fire: (Which is now two less then before)
Left Kicker 17
Right Kicker 18
R. Jet Bumper 19
LL Jet Bumper 20
UL Jet Bumper 21
Top Flasher 22
Lastly, there is some damage on the board where the transistors are on J19. So I will most likely send the board in for repair.
I think my problem is due to some bad transistors and possible board damage. However I am not sure what caused it...
Also, I still have no idea why the flippers aren't working, unless it has something to do with J19, where all the damage is done.
Quoted from Jared1862:That fuse was bad, so now the hideaways fire!
However, I still have a mess. I bought this at an auction pretty cheap, now I know why...
The previous owner replaced both flipper coils, two pop bumpers coils (neither look to be the correct coil). Also he added diodes in an unusual way, or at least to me.
When I run the coil test now the below do not fire: (Which is now two less then before)
Left Kicker 17
Right Kicker 18
R. Jet Bumper 19
LL Jet Bumper 20
UL Jet Bumper 21
Top Flasher 22
Lastly, there is some damage on the board where the transistors are on J19. So I will most likely send the board in for repair.
I think my problem is due to some bad transistors and possible board damage. However I am not sure what caused it...
Also, I still have no idea why the flippers aren't working, unless it has something to do with J19, where all the damage is done.
All those solenoids are part of the special solenoid group. Do those work outside of test mode? I don't have my HS any more, so I don't recall if those are suppose to fire in solenoid test.
Quoted from Jared1862:This is one of the flipper coils. Double diodes??? One on the coil, and one attached by curly wires?
IMAG0316_(resized).jpg
That is a serious hack. No coiled wires running off of or in line with diodes. And that length of wire is probably dramatically increasing the resistance.
There is fuse for the flippers on a separate board if I recall. You should check that if you haven't already.
The special solenoids (the 6 you list) may also be on a common fuse, I forget. Q77 looks burnt, it could be shorted causing a fuse to blow for all the special solenoids. You could pull the wire from J19, slot 8, to take Q77 out of the circuit (with power off), make sure the fuses are all good, and then try it.
Quoted from Colsond3:That is a serious hack. No coiled wires running off of or in line with diodes. And that length of wire is probably dramatically increasing the resistance.
Yes, I agree. I am going to replace all of the diodes and lose the telephone wire.
Quoted from foxct:There is fuse for the flippers on a separate board if I recall. You should check that if you haven't already.
The special solenoids (the 6 you list) may also be on a common fuse, I forget. Q77 looks burnt, it could be shorted causing a fuse to blow for all the special solenoids. You could pull the wire from J19, slot 8, to take Q77 out of the circuit (with power off), make sure the fuses are all good, and then try it.
There is a separate board, and the fuse is good. You are correct, there is a fuse for the special solenoids, and that is good as well. I do think it is odd that none of the fuses blow.
Quoted from Jared1862:Yes, I agree. I am going to replace all of the diodes and lose the telephone wire.
There is a separate board, and the fuse is good. You are correct, there is a fuse for the special solenoids, and that is good as well. I do think it is odd that none of the fuses blow.
Strange indeed. Are you removing the fuses and checking them with a meter?
The special soleniods are controlled by U45 and U50, which both appear to be socketed on your board. It's unlikely both those chips would fail together I think. You could try replacing those chips, but that's a long shot
Don't send the board in for transistor work. That is easy for you to do. In fact, maybe there is a new transistor on there and the board was never cleaned when the last one blew. It looks clean.
Check the diodes with a digital volt meter. Easy to do.
When you see hacks, perhaps they worked at some point. Keep troubleshooting before you rip out the hacks as it might be something simple that recently failed other than the hacks.
Quoted from Jared1862:However, I still have a mess
I asked before, Do you have a DMM?
Quoted from foxct:Strange indeed. Are you removing the fuses and checking them with a meter?
Quoted from GRUMPY:I asked before, Do you have a DMM?
Yes, and I used it to check the fuses.
Then cut that white wire crap off the flipper coil with out cutting the other wires off. Turn on the power and check for DC power at the flipper coil lugs. Write down the wire color and your voltage reading. Take a good pic of each coil so that I can see the red enamel wires on the coil next to the diode. Report back what you find.
All 3 lugs on both coils registered 069.5 DC Voltage
All 3 Pop Bumpers registered 25.18 on all lugs.
Both Kickers registered 25.30 on all lugs.
I also check the resistance on the transistors Q69, Q71, Q73, Q75, Q77 and they all registered 041.5. Q79 registered 0.L?
It sounds like you have lost high power voltage. Does anything 50V fire at all test or in game?
In the picture of the board repair is that suppose to be a 1/2 watt resistor R104?? least of your troubles. Some of those hacks will need fixed to get these other things to work properly I am sure of it. Yeah auctions...
Also the transistor below it has gotten very very hot. (Q77 I think) check trace from Q77 to touching components from the backside of the board.
I'm pretty sure this is the molex for the flippers, among other things. It looks like it was a clear molex at one point? I was unable to separate the connection to inspect further. I didn't want to put to much force into it so I don't break it. Is it possible this connection overheated?
Quoted from Shoot_Again:It sounds like you have lost high power voltage. Does anything 50V fire at all test or in game?
In the picture of the board repair is that suppose to be a 1/2 watt resistor R104?? least of your troubles. Some of those hacks will need fixed to get these other things to work properly I am sure of it. Yeah auctions...
Also the transistor below it has gotten very very hot. (Q77 I think) check trace from Q77 to touching components from the backside of the board.
The following don't fire in the game or during test:
Both Flippers
Both Kickers
All 3 pop bumpers
I'm not sure which are 50V. All the other coils in the game do fire.
Yes clearly the board will need some work.
I thought i was in over my head with my high speed, until I found this thread. You guys are way more advanced then me, so I need. Little help...and if anyone is in SoCal... I will definitely compensate you to help fix my machine...the main and current issue I Am dealing with is as follow... The Eject Hole, and the lower Green target both quit working at the same time. So when the ball lands in the hole....it doesn't register, or advance the stoplight. Sometimes I get it to work for a few games, and then it fails again. They both stop working at the same time . The obvious answer to me is that it has something to do with the targets because the middle yellow target is mismatched hacked in, and must be causing a short somewhere . Thanks in advance for the help.
Those are the correct coils for the game, this type of coil only needs one diode on it. If you look at the flipper switches on the cabinet there is a orange wire on there. Take a jumper wire and connect it to the orange wire and to the ground braid wire in the bottom of the cabinet. Turn on the power, then press the button with the jumper. Does the flipper work now? If so then use the jumper on the other side and check that flipper. P/S that connector is the worst burnt connector I have seen in a long time.
Quoted from GRUMPY:Those are the correct coils for the game, this type of coil only needs one diode on it. If you look at the flipper switches on the cabinet there is a orange wire on there. Take a jumper wire and connect it to the orange wire and to the ground braid wire in the bottom of the cabinet. Turn on the power, then press the button with the jumper. Does the flipper work now? If so then use the jumper on the other side and check that flipper. P/S that connector is the worst burnt connector I have seen in a long time.
That worked.
Quoted from Jared1862:The following don't fire in the game or during test:
Both Flippers
Both Kickers
All 3 pop bumpers
I'm not sure which are 50V. All the other coils in the game do fire.
Yes clearly the board will need some work.
Those particular coils will NEVER fire in test mode. They are considered "dedicated coils" for this era of system 11 game.
Quoted from Jared1862:That worked.
Good, then remove the jumper from the cabinet and move it to the ground braid in the back box. Take the other end of the jumper and clip it to a small nail. With the power on take the jumper with the nail and touch it to 1J19 pin 1 and pin 2. When you do this have someone push the flipper buttons, do both work now? You leave the connector on 1J19 and use the nail to touch the metal where the wire is stuck in.
Quoted from GRUMPY:Good, then remove the jumper from the cabinet and move it to the ground braid in the back box. Take the other end of the jumper and clip it to a small nail. With the power on take the jumper with the nail and touch it to 1J19 pin 1 and pin 2. When you do this have someone push the flipper buttons, do both work now? You leave the connector on 1J19 and use the nail to touch the metal where the wire is stuck in.
That worked as well.
I also shorted out the transistor tabs on J19, as someone else recommended, they also all fired except the flasher on Q79.
Quoted from Jared1862:flasher on Q79.
Its a burnt bulb.
Quoted from Jared1862:That worked as well.
I also shorted out the transistor tabs on J19, as someone else recommended, they also all fired
This tells me that your problem is on the Cpu board, so do you know how to solder correctly? Do you have a logic probe?
Quoted from GRUMPY:Its a burnt bulb.
I checked that, the bulb is fine. The socket also looked corroded, but figured it had to be the transistor since it didn't register any resistance.
Quoted from GRUMPY:This tells me that your problem is on the Cpu board, so do you know how to solder correctly? Do you have a logic probe?
I can solder, but I have never attempted on a board. I guess it's time to give it a shot. I do not have a logic probe, but will order one now. Is there a logic probe you would recommend, I'll probably just order off of Amazon.
Thanks for all of your help!
Quoted from Jared1862:I'm pretty sure this is the molex for the flippers, among other things. It looks like it was a clear molex at one point? I was unable to separate the connection to inspect further. I didn't want to put to much force into it so I don't break it. Is it possible this connection overheated?
Is this the connector that is under the playfield? That is where I found my high speed flipper problem. I would try to get that apart and see what the pins look like. I believe that when you wire your flippers to ground, you are bypassing that connector. In my inexperienced opinion you may have a wiring problem, not a board problem.
Quoted from TVP:I believe that when you wire your flippers to ground, you are bypassing that connector.
When he grounded it in the cabinet we bypassed the connector, but when he grounded it in the backbox we used the wires going thru the connector. Now I'm trying go in a step by step method for the OP as he's a newbi to troubleshooting, but you can be sure before I'm done he's going the replace that connector.
Quoted from Jared1862:Is there a logic probe you would recommend
No, you don't need anything fancy. They run around 20.00 dollars. You will also need small diameter solder and a solder sucker. You need a manual with schematics so you can understand what is wrong. Lastly while you are waiting for supplies you need to read Terry B solder guide, THIS IS A MUST. Let me know when you are ready.
Quoted from Jared1862:I checked that, the bulb is fine. The socket also looked corroded, but figured it had to be the transistor since it didn't register any resistance.
The bulbs in HS are #63 7 volt bulbs, in which 2 bulbs are run in series with a resistor to drop the coil voltage down to a usable level. Since they are run in pairs you need to check both bulbs and the resistor for continuity.
Quoted from Jared1862:I also shorted out the transistor tabs on J19, as someone else recommended, they also all fired except the flasher on Q79.
If the bulbs and resistor had been good then the bulbs would have lit. These bulbs are very bright and burn out often. So I'm sticking with a burnt bulb.
Quoted from Jared1862:Logic probe arrived today.
Are you ready to toubleshoot? Page 2 in the manual shows all the solenoids. The six that don't work for you are the special solenoids and your flippers don't work either. With this info in hand, look at the schematics for the CPU board. There are four pages for the CPU board. If you look at sheet one of four, the right hand side, there are six TIP122 transistors for the special solenoids and the flipper relay which turns on the flipper ground. There's only a few things in commen to all seven problems. U-50 pins 11 and 12 should be low when the CPU board boots and you start a game. U-50 is a nor chip, so if both inputs are low the output pin13 will be high. The high signal then goes to U-56 pin5 an inverter buffer. U-56 inverts the high to a low signal at pin 6. The low signal from U56 pin6 goes to U-50 pin 8 and 9 to enable the flipper relay but also goes to each of the special solenoids. So start start by checking U-50 pin 13 for a high, if that good then check U-56 pin 6 for a low. Let me know what you find.
Thats my fault here, I should have let you know how chip pins are numbered. You always start with the notched end. So from the notch go to the left, this is pin one. Then you go in a counter clockwise direction with the pin numbers.
Do you start with the top row or bottom row? Also the board installed is upside down compared to the manual. So looking at the board installed, do I start with the top or bottom row?
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/high-speed-help-2 and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.