In game play: when special is lit on outlanes, does it alternate from one side to the other and if so, what controls the change from side to side?
Tia Cliff
(Topic ID: 69131)
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Quoted from desertT1:I always buy extra of these small components. Here is a fresh one. When I installed the one that’s in there before it died it measured pretty much the same value. I can put a new one in just as easily, but not sure I like that the one I just put in dies in 30 minutes of use.
For what it’s worth, with the black lead touching the metal plate in the head I get 2.8v on the pos side of the (likely) dead cap, and 0v on the neg side. This is with the game powered on but not booting.[quoted image]
Are the 800 readings with the bad cap installed on the board or removed from the board?
Vail, AZ
Quoted from gutz:Are the 800 readings with the bad cap installed on the board or removed from the board?
I just cut it off and checked and the one on the board reads 24mfd as well. 
So maybe it was ok after all. Problem is that the cap was the last thing I replaced before it started working again.
Put a new C30 in and it’s still showing garbled display info on the MPU. Sooooo, seems like something else is keeping it from booting. Is there a list of components I can check? Thought I found one recently, but can’t find it again now.
1 week later
I have owned my HS for almost a year and have fixed most of my problems. Now I have 2 new problems:
1. When I turn the game on - the ADJUST FAILURE comes on in the displays and the game will not play. When I go through the Adjustments it seems the Free Play is set to NO. When I reset the Free Play to YES the game will play. But when I shut the machine off and turn it back on the ADJUST FAILURE comes on again and the Free Play is shown as NO. I have replaced the batteries and the problem is still there. I have looked through the Forum and can not find a fix other than change the batteries.
2. The machine is showing problems with Switch 39 and Switch 40. I know these switches are on the Left Hideout but I do not know how to adjust them. Can someone tell me how to adjust these switches.
Thanks for anyone's help.
Quoted from The_Great_Man:I have looked through the Forum and can not find a fix other than change the batteries.
Either the battery holder is damaged or D-2 on the CPU is bad.
Quoted from The_Great_Man:The machine is showing problems with Switch 39 and Switch 40.
Since both are switches aren't working I would think that the Green/Black wire is broken at these switches or the switch before these.
Thanks Grumpy. I think the battery holder is working because it keeps the High Scores but I will check the battery holder tomorrow morning. Do I check D-2 with a multimeter?
I think Switches 39 and 40 are working but they are not working correctly. Sometimes they go off and the Ramp Scores when the ball does not go in the hideout. Do I take the plastic off the playfield to adjust Switch 40?
Couple more things have come up that might or might not be associated with these problems.
I did not use the game for about a month and when I started up a game. All 3 of the Pop Bumpers would not fire. The ball would hit the bumpers but nothing would happen. After playing the game for a couple balls - All of the bumpers started working and worked the rest of the game. Any idea what would cause all 3 Pop Bumpers to not work?
Quoted from The_Great_Man:Couple more things have come up that might or might not be associated with these problems.
I did not use the game for about a month and when I started up a game. All 3 of the Pop Bumpers would not fire. The ball would hit the bumpers but nothing would happen. After playing the game for a couple balls - All of the bumpers started working and worked the rest of the game. Any idea what would cause all 3 Pop Bumpers to not work?
I would start with checking power to the pop bumpers. That is the common with all 3 pop bumpers. That power daisy chains to other solenoids and flashers. Were the pop bumpers the only affected areas? Could be a bad connection in a Molex (if Molex connectors have been installed) or solder connection.
Quoted from The_Great_Man:Do I check D-2 with a multimeter?
Yes.
Quoted from The_Great_Man:All 3 of the Pop Bumpers would not fire.
In addition to checking the power wire like Pin-Pilot said, check the white switch activation wire for a break.
Thanks for the help. The pop bumpers seemed to be the only area of the playfield affected. It seemed strange to this pinball novice that when the game got going the bumpers started working. My first thought is there is a wire a little loose somewhere and playing the game set it straight. Just not sure which wire it would be. Also the sound keeps going in and out. When the game starts there sometimes is no noise but when the game gets going the sound comes on and stays on. Again I am thinking there s a connection a little off somewhere. When I move the bank of wires that lead from the top of the power board to the sound board - it seems to make the noise work. Should I take off the power board and resolder those pins. I have never taken a board off before and although I am pretty handy I am getting tired of doing things I have never done before.
As for my sound issue. When I put downward pressure on the white connector or press on the grey wire which is furthest to the left in this picture of the 14 or 15 pin connector at the top middle of the Power Supply Board - I get the sound to work. Because I can get it to work by pressing on the connector or moving the wire around - Does that mean typically that the pin on the power supply board needs to be resoldered or is there some other likely problem. I have never done any work on the boards before but have watched many YouTube videos about it and read many comments about it. Thank you.
IMG_2841 (resized).jpgWhile I am at it and abusing your knowledge of my HS game - I have this "thing" under my Playfield. It is located next to the Coil for the upper right flipper. It appears to have been added at some point since it has the heat shrink around the wires. it is connected to the coil for the flipper and is covered in this white rubbery substance that I assume holds it in place. I have never had a problem with this right upper flipper so I am reluctant to touch it. Does anyone know what this is and does it look like it is correct? Thanks.
IMG_2848 (resized).jpgIMG_2850 (resized).jpgQuoted from The_Great_Man:While I am at it and abusing your knowledge of my HS game - I have this "thing" under my Playfield. It is located next to the Coil for the upper right flipper. It appears to have been added at some point since it has the heat shrink around the wires. it is connected to the coil for the flipper and is covered in this white rubbery substance that I assume holds it in place. I have never had a problem with this right upper flipper so I am reluctant to touch it. Does anyone know what this is and does it look like it is correct? Thanks.
[quoted image][quoted image]
That is a capacitor to eliminate the spark created at the switch contacts. The capacitor absorbs the energy from the coil to reduce spark so the switches last longer.
Also Someone has upgraded the solenoids on your #hs. OEM are series coils (FL23/600-30/2600) and this one is a parallel wound coil (FL-11630). With the new coil is also installed a capacitor. So yes that is suppose to be there. Not the cleanest install but effective.
Are the lower playfield flippers the same as the upper one in your picture?
Go to this thread to read more about upgrading coils to Parallel.
Quoted from The_Great_Man:And as for the pop bumpers. In this photo of the underside of the Playfield - Can someone point out to me which is the power wire that might be having trouble that connects all the pop bumpers together. Thanks.
[quoted image]
The power lead to the coils should be RED with WHITE stripe. This wire is ALWAYS powered when the game is on. The other wire is the "trigger" wire. It is grounded through the CPU board when a playfield switch is closed. In this case the bumper skirt switch.
If you have a DMM and attach the black lead to the cabinet ground strap on the inside of the cabinet. Attach the red lead to the Red/White stripe wire. Set the DMM to DC. You should read about 37 volts.
Another Note: The DIODE on the coil should be positioned with the white band closest to the Red/White stripe wire.
Thanks for the pictures, that helps a lot.
Lower flippers have the same coils as the upper flipper and it looks like whoever made the change also added those capacitors to the lower flipper coils as well. I assume this is ok.
For the bumpers - Is there something or some wire that would make all 3 of the bumpers go dead at the same time and then restart at the same time. Seems to me like there must be a wire that goes to one of the bumpers and then is passed along to the other two bumpers. Or is it set up so that when one bumper fires they all fire? Going to each bumper coil there are 2 red wires - each with white stripe - on one connector and then a white wire - with an orange, green, yellow stripe - on the other connector. The diodes have a grey band which is closest to the red wire connector.
IMG_2856 (resized).jpgIs there a chance that the bumper problem is similar to the sound problem and one of those wires from the 14-15 pin connector on the Power Supply Board goes to the bumpers. Maybe the pins are loose on the Power Supply Board and that is causing a problem with the bumpers.
Quoted from The_Great_Man:Is there a chance that the bumper problem is similar to the sound problem and one of those wires from the 14-15 pin connector on the Power Supply Board goes to the bumpers. Maybe the pins are loose on the Power Supply Board and that is causing a problem with the bumpers.
Definitely, if there is one loose head pin solder I am sure there are more. You can use a magnifying glass to see the cracked solder. I would definitely remove the power supply board and re-solder ALL the head pins. That is a very common issue! There is lots of good info on this on Pinside.
You will want to look at replacing all the capacitors on the Power Supply. There are kits that come with all the parts to do a rebuild of the Power Supply.
Quoted from The_Great_Man:Lower flippers have the same coils as the upper flipper and it looks like whoever made the change also added those capacitors to the lower flipper coils as well. I assume this is ok.[quoted image]
Yes, This is a good upgrade. reduces the need to replace switches.
Quoted from The_Great_Man:For the bumpers - Is there something or some wire that would make all 3 of the bumpers go dead at the same time and then restart at the same time. Seems to me like there must be a wire that goes to one of the bumpers and then is passed along to the other two bumpers. Or is it set up so that when one bumper fires they all fire? Going to each bumper coil there are 2 red wires - each with white stripe - on one connector and then a white wire - with an orange, green, yellow stripe - on the other connector. The diodes have a grey band which is closest to the red wire connector.
[quoted image]
Since the power is the common to many of your playfield solenoids I would suspect this as a first area to investigate. A loose connection can cause lots of odd behavior.
There are several solenoids (Left Outland Kickback, both hideout solenoids) with a Violet/Yellow wire that should be about 65volts +-
Thanks Pin-Pilot. I just ordered all the capacitors for the Power Supply Board and I should be doing it this weekend. First time - But I think I can do it. And a new PSB is not that expensive if I screw it all up.
Outhole Switch is driving me bonkers. I check continuity and the switch registers open/closed, but during the switch test it will not register. Put in a new switch and diode, same result. I checked continuity to the switches before and after it, and there is continuity. Checked diode polarity and it is correct. All other switches work during the switch test.
Quoted from MasterBlaster:Outhole Switch is driving me bonkers. I check continuity and the switch registers open/closed, but during the switch test it will not register. Put in a new switch and diode, same result. I checked continuity to the switches before and after it, and there is continuity. Checked diode polarity and it is correct. All other switches work during the switch test.
Sounds like you have checked everything. Since all the other switches work in the switch matrix and you checked continuity between switches I am at a loss as to what to check next.
Which switch is downline from the Outhole switch daisy-chain?
Quoted from MasterBlaster:Outhole Switch is driving me bonkers. I check continuity and the switch registers open/closed, but during the switch test it will not register. Put in a new switch and diode, same result. I checked continuity to the switches before and after it, and there is continuity. Checked diode polarity and it is correct. All other switches work during the switch test.
Could be stuck logic in the pia that handles the switch.
I’ve been replacing several pia’s in the last few years on system 11’s that have had these kinds of gremlins.
Quoted from Pin-Pilot:Sounds like you have checked everything. Since all the other switches work in the switch matrix and you checked continuity between switches I am at a loss as to what to check next.
Which switch is downline from the Outhole switch daisy-chain?
It is the trough switches, which all check out in test and operate fine during gameplay.
One thing I forgot to mention, when a ball drains the game waits (and of course the switch doesn’t register) so after awhile it cycles through the coils, as is standard operating procedure. Once the machine cycles through the coils, then the outhole registers that the ball has drained. This happens every time after the ball drains.
Quoted from Chosen_S:Could be stuck logic in the pia that handles the switch.
I’ve been replacing several pia’s in the last few years on system 11’s that have had these kinds of gremlins.
Ok please forgive me, what is pia?
I am not familiar with that term/acronym.
Quoted from Digduglus:Just joined today!
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Congratulations!! Looks like it’s in great shape.
Quoted from Digduglus:Just joined today!
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Congrats, Looks like you found a nice one!
Burlington, ON
Quoted from Digduglus:Just joined today!
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That either has a new playfield/hardtop or very little play. Nice!
Quoted from MasterBlaster:Ok please forgive me, what is pia?
I am not familiar with that term/acronym.
OK I see you’re referring to the chips...I will check it
Quoted from MasterBlaster:It is the trough switches, which all check out in test and operate fine during gameplay.
So the switch does register in test now?
Quoted from MasterBlaster:One thing I forgot to mention, when a ball drains the game waits (and of course the switch doesn’t register) so after awhile it cycles through the coils, as is standard operating procedure. Once the machine cycles through the coils, then the outhole registers that the ball has drained. This happens every time after the ball drains.
If it's registering in test, and does register in game but not until it cycles the coils, I think you might have an adjustment problem. I vaguely remember having a similar issue that randomly popped up after working perfectly for several months after buying it, and I had to adjust the arm up quite a bit to ensure it made that click noise when it's engaged. I would do this to all of the arms, but I think for me it was the ball drain arm. Also, make sure you test it with a ball and not your finger.
Quoted from Pin-Pilot:Congrats, Looks like you found a nice one!
Its been Huo since the early 90s. Pf has slight mylar lifting but thats it. Great shape overall
20201017_174228 (resized).jpgWhat would cause the 7-segment display on the MPU to not light up at all? I was going through the 5V checks listed below and everything was good. Turned it off and went away for a little bit for lunch and now when I power it up the display is blank instead of garbled. I had replaced C30 and it started working and then after playing it for a few hours turned it off for the day. Next time I turned it back on the display was garbled again (leading me to think maybe C30 was fine). Now I have no display, but still have the 5v at the points below:
Test for Proper voltage on the boards.
Your game will never run if you don't have +5 volts on the CPU board. But first you must test for ground on the CPU board. To test for ground, turn the game off and set your DMM to "ohms". Make sure you get zero ohms from the ground test point TP1 (to the left of the batteries) on the CPU board, to the metal shield or ground strap in the backbox.
Next set your DMM to DC volts. Turn the game on, and test for +5 volts at TP2 on the CPU board (TP2 is to the right of chip U21). Make sure the black lead of your DMM on ground (backbox grounding strap). Now test for +5 volts right at the chips themselves. For example, test for +5 volts at U15 (the 6808 CPU) at pin 8. The 2764 EPROM at U26 and the 27256 EPROM at U27 will have +5 volts at pin 28. The 6821 PIA's at U10, U38, U41, U42, U51, U54 will have +5 volts at pin 20. Remember, pin 1 of all chips is by the "notch" in the chip. Also there is usually a white "dot" printed on the circuit board to show pin 1.
-----------------------------
Actually, I just did a test and I have 12 ohms between the GND test point and the metal back panel. That doesn't seem right at all. I touched the top center bolt, the one the ties the board to the stud to the metal back panel, and I got 9.8 ohms!?! What on earth is going on here?
EDIT: Did the test with the game off and I get 0.7 ohms. So now I'm just back to why the 7-segment is out. But also, why would that GND TP and back panel read 12 ohms with the game on?
Quoted from desertT1:What would cause the 7-segment display on the MPU to not light up at all?
No 5 volts at pins 3 and 14 of U-46.
No ground inputs at pins 1,2,7,8,10 11 and 13 of U-46.
A bad U-46 chip.
Quoted from killborn:So the switch does register in test now?
If it's registering in test, and does register in game but not until it cycles the coils, I think you might have an adjustment problem. I vaguely remember having a similar issue that randomly popped up after working perfectly for several months after buying it, and I had to adjust the arm up quite a bit to ensure it made that click noise when it's engaged. I would do this to all of the arms, but I think for me it was the ball drain arm. Also, make sure you test it with a ball and not your finger.
Sorry I might have made it sound like it was registering in test mode, but it does not. The trough switches test and work fine, but the outhole switch does not register in test mode.
Quoted from MasterBlaster:Sorry I might have made it sound like it was registering in test mode, but it does not.
With J-8 and J-10 removed, place game in switch test and then use a jumper wire on the header pins of the CPU. Connect J-10 pin 9 to J-8 pin 2.
Does the outhole switch #9 show up on the display?
outhole (resized).PNGQuoted from GRUMPY:No 5 volts at pins 3 and 14 of U-46.
No ground inputs at pins 1,2,7,8,10 11 and 13 of U-46.
A bad U-46 chip.
I have a power supply hooked up to J117 and nothing else is connected to the MPU. The MPU is out and on a towel. If I have the black probe on pin 1 of J117 and I use the red probe to go around U46 I get 5V at each pin I touch. Might this be something wrong upstream, or is U46 toast?
Quoted from GRUMPY:With J-8 and J-10 removed, place game in switch test and then use a jumper wire on the header pins of the CPU. Connect J-10 pin 9 to J-8 pin 2.
Does the outhole switch #9 show up on the display?
[quoted image]
Yep, registers just fine with the jumper. Just because I’m doubting even my most basic skills at this point, here is how the switch is wired up. I added the spade terminal just because I’ve been messing with this switch so much, so I suppose I could go back to solder connection but it wasn’t working when it was soldered either.
C2E12CC1-8852-4D46-9D92-1D2B87BAE564 (resized).jpegQuoted from MasterBlaster:Yep, registers just fine with the jumper.
Good, this means the CPU is fine. Problem must be on the playfield.
Quoted from MasterBlaster:I’m doubting even my most basic skills at this point, here is how the switch is wired up.
Why? Your wiring/soldering looks just fine.
Quoted from MasterBlaster:The trough switches test and work fine, but the outhole switch does not register in test mode.
Since there are 2 green/red wires, this switch is somewhere in the middle of the 8. This means the green/red wires are good. Now since there is only 1 white/brown wire, this is the last switch of the 8. So your problem can be one of these, bad switch, bad diode, miss adjusted switch, bad connection of the white/brown wire at this switch or the previous switch or a broken wire. If you think everything with the switch is good, then hook up your jumper from the white/brown wire on the outhole switch to the white/brown wire of switch #25. Reconnect J-8 and J-10, then run the switch test again.
HS outhole (resized).PNGQuoted from GRUMPY:Good, this means the CPU is fine. Problem must be on the playfield
Since there are 2 green/red wires, this switch is somewhere in the middle of the 8. This means the green/red wires are good. Now since there is only 1 white/brown wire, this is the last switch of the 8. So your problem can be one of these, bad switch, bad diode, miss adjusted switch, bad connection of the white/brown wire at this switch or the previous switch or a broken wire. If you think everything with the switch is good, then hook up your jumper from the white/brown wire on the outhole switch to the white/brown wire of switch #25. Reconnect J-8 and J-10, then run the switch test again.
[quoted image]
The switch and diode are brand new, I changed them out with another new switch and diode that I put in a couple of weeks ago, thinking maybe I just got a bad switch and maybe it hosed up the diode too.
Ran the jumper from the outhole switch to switch #25 Standup Target Arrow 1, and it registers.
Quoted from desertT1:I use the red probe to go around U46 I get 5V at each pin I touch.
This can mean the cpu has not booted or that a chip upstream is bad.
Quoted from GRUMPY:No ground inputs at pins 1,2,7,8,10 11 and 13 of U-46.
You can apply a low (ground) to one or more of these pins and segments of the 7 segment display should light. Each pin is one segment of the display.
Quoted from MasterBlaster:Ran the jumper from the outhole switch to switch #25 Standup Target Arrow 1, and it registers.
Ok, so now you are down to a bad connection on the previous switch or a broken wire.
Quoted from GRUMPY:Ok, so now you are down to a bad connection on the previous switch or a broken wire.
Success! I started following the wire to check for kinks or breaks, and got to the tilt switch. Looked at the connection at the switch and it seemed to look fine, but I wiggled it ever so slightly and BOINK one of the wires popped off. So it must have been hanging on enough to stay attached to the switch but not enough to allow proper flow.
Soldered the wire back on, ran the switch test and we have a bingo.
Thank You!
** GRUMPY FOR PRESIDENT 2020 **
6C25B665-C0AE-4FD5-99ED-0CCA43EAC3E5 (resized).jpeg
Quoted from MasterBlaster:** GRUMPY FOR PRESIDENT 2020 **
Hell no, I'm already a king!
pasted_image (resized).pngQuoted from GRUMPY:This can mean the cpu has not booted or that a chip upstream is bad.
You can apply a low (ground) to one or more of these pins and segments of the 7 segment display should light. Each pin is one segment of the display.
If I touch one of the segment pins and ground the other side the segment goes on for just a moment and then goes off. Touched one of the ground pins (pin 3) on accident and it arced just a tiny bit. Obviously didn’t mean to, but tried a little harder to avoid doing that again.
EDIT: U47 is orange on my board. It's an MDP1603 271G. Found the data sheet saying it's a resistor pack, 271 ohms @ 2%. It measured 271.1 across each resistor, so that seems good. Onto the next thing upstream, U48. Looks like I'll be doing some diode tests on U48 once I find the sheet. More to come...
EDIT 2: U48 is a 7447 7-segment driver. I have no idea how to test this. Searching online, but if anyone is in the know, I'm all ears.
Quoted from GRUMPY:Hell no, I'm already a king!
[quoted image]
Hahahahaha King is WAY better.
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