(Topic ID: 257524)

High Hand stuck in tilt


By Entity

5 months ago



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  • Latest reply 17 days ago by BulkOfTheSeries
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#1 5 months ago

Hello I have a high hand that is stuck in tilt after it kicks out the ball, ive tested the various tilt switchs (backbox, under playfield, plumbob, the one on the left side with the rail with the ball in it) with my DMM and they all say there closed when there clearly not, the ball count unit doesnt move up to ball one after it gets kicked into the shooter lane. Also theres a wire i dont know where it goes in the backbox, I thought it went to the jones plug closest to it on the bottom left connector seeing as that's the closest part that it couldve gone, and the wire that is connected there is the same color. I have schematics, any help would be much appreciated.

After some further testing, im not so sure its stuck in tilt, actually im not sure what to think about it anymore, this is a first EM game for me so there will be mistakes, but the tilt light is constantly on and the tilt switchs are all showing closed so i figure'd it was stuck in tilt. I was able to get the playfield lights on by actuating the Hold relay (R) manually which turns off the tilt light, other then that i've made sure the score reels are runing freely, one was gumed up so i cleaned it and they all run smoothly now. Not sure what to make of it but time to go read up more on EM repair, its been fun working on it and i find EM's much more fascinating than the newer solid state machines.

Thank you.
IMG00005 (resized).jpg

#2 5 months ago

Scratch the plumbob part, its testing open when it should be, cant seem to edit my original post.

#3 5 months ago

Sounds like your hold relay (R) is not engaged. You have the manual? If so, follow the start-up sequence...
*Coin or replay button actuates the start (S) relay
*When the S relay is pulled-in it does multiple things such as starts the score motor, reset score reels, reset ball count, and subtract from the replay unit. (The V relay will also get engaged).

Can you get to that point on startup?

Not sure on the wire from the photo. Can you trace it back to where it belongs and can double check that way? I think you are probably correct in your assumption.

#4 5 months ago
Quoted from troxel:

Sounds like your hold relay (R) is not engaged. You have the manual? If so, follow the start-up sequence...
*Coin or replay button actuates the start (S) relay
*When the S relay is pulled-in it does multiple things such as starts the score motor, reset score reels, reset ball count, and subtract from the replay unit. (The V relay will also get engaged).
Can you get to that point on startup?
Not sure on the wire from the photo. Can you trace it back to where it belongs and can double check that way? I think you are probably correct in your assumption.

Yes the hold relay (R) is not engageing last time i checked. I do have a manual and i'll post back here shortly after i take another look at it. Thank you.

Edit:
I can get to the last part you mentioned on startup, everything resets besides the ball in play reel, it only goes back by 1 number every time i push the front button and the hold relay (R) isnt engaging. As far as the wire is concerned it doesnt seem to make a difference when its connected or disconneted. the V relay also gets engaged.

#5 5 months ago

Can you manually adjust the ball count unit (backbox) with the game off and reset it manually? Should advance 5 times and then reset back to zero position. Try a couple of times and see it moves smoothly or if it's gummed up.

#6 5 months ago
Quoted from troxel:

Can you manually adjust the ball count unit (backbox) with the game off and reset it manually? Should advance 5 times and then reset back to zero position. Try a couple of times and see it moves smoothly or if it's gummed up.

Yes, it advances 5 times useing the advanceing solonoid, then useing the other one it resets back to zero position, is there supose to be any missing teeth on the gear? Assuming the ball count unit is the one on the right. The other one on the left is advancing smoothly as well but its not going back to 0 without multiple pulls.

#7 5 months ago

Or do i have it backwards? Is the ball count unit the one on the left with the reel? My one on the right is labled ball count unit, that may be messing me up, when activating the one on the left up to 5 it works smoothly but when trying to do it a 6th time it hangs up and doesnt want to go to ball 6 and doesnt reset all the way to zero. The one on the right i an activate 6 times but theres not a tooth on the gear to make it go a 7th.

#8 5 months ago
Quoted from Entity:

Yes, it advances 5 times useing the advanceing solonoid, then useing the other one it resets back to zero position, is there supose to be any missing teeth on the gear? Assuming the ball count unit is the one on the right. The other one on the left is advancing smoothly as well but its not going back to 0 without multiple pulls.

That's good. The one of the left is the replay unit and should only add or subtract one at a time. Basically, how many credits are on the machine.

Quoted from Entity:

I can get to the last part you mentioned on startup, everything resets besides the ball in play reel, it only goes back by 1 number every time i push the front button and the hold relay (R) isnt engaging. As far as the wire is concerned it doesnt seem to make a difference when its connected or disconneted.

What do you mean here? If it's on ball 5, it shows ball 4 after you hit the credit button? Can you snap a photo of the ball count unit in the zero position?

#9 5 months ago
Quoted from troxel:

That's good. The one of the left is the replay unit and should only add or subtract one at a time. Basically, how many credits are on the machine.

What do you mean here? If it's on ball 5, it shows ball 4 after you hit the credit button? Can you snap a photo of the ball count unit in the zero position?

I was mixing up the ball count for the replay reel, thank you for clearifying that for me.

I'll get some better pictures of the ball count unit when this other phone charges, I currently have a dumb phone and a bad laptop camera, just remembered i had a phone a friend lent me.

Zero position on the ball count unit, and ok i thought the ball count unit was the one with the reel, now that i think of it the ball count on the backglass shows up with lights behind it doesnt it?
ball count unit (resized).png

#10 5 months ago

Ok, here we go, first picture zero position, second picture zero position with the switchs, 3rd picture, missing tooth.
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#11 5 months ago

Ball unit looks correct in the zero position. Can you make sure the switches I circled switch states as you advance the ball unit? These should open or close at some point. Some will transition the first time you advance it. The top one should open when you can’t advance any more.

The teeth are correct. This is made so you can’t advance too many times. The last advance should be on the last rivet.

If all check, then the ball count unit is good.
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#12 5 months ago

The middle and right one close as i actuated it, and the left one opened at the end, i also tested em with my multimeter in ohms, there readings are all over the place, i was able to play one game when i started it in the ball one position (first contact), how do you clean leaf switchs? I'm geting the feeling the leaf switchs arnt quite clean.

Also at the end of that game the game shot out a 6th ball in game over.

Oh man, so excited, were geting somewhere

#13 5 months ago

When you start a game does the R relay just pulse and not stay engaged? Does the scores reset and motor stop spinning?

#14 5 months ago

I've only been able to get the one game started, the R relay doesnt want to engage again, but the scores reset and the motor does stop spinning when i hit the replay button.

#15 5 months ago

Here's the path for the R relay to engage. Check the switch that I circled. It's a make-break switch on the S relay in the bottom of the game. There will be three blades with two contacts. It's the only one on the S relay. The wires colors are (White with a Brown tracer) and the other one is slate. Make sure the switches are transitioning when you manually move the relay.

Rrelay (resized).JPG
#16 5 months ago

It wasnt making contact, i adjusted it and now its starting a game every time. Theres a pretty loud buzzing though, not sure where its coming from.

Edit:
The loud buzzing is comeing from the R relay.

#17 5 months ago

Is the game now working besides the buzz?

#18 5 months ago

It's working besides the scoreing on the drop targets isnt, the pop bumper scoreing goes up by i wanna say 1100 points, i think the rollovers are working, but other then that its so nice to be able to get into a game, i cant thank you enough for the help man.

#19 5 months ago

After somemore testing sometimes it exits game prematurely, and of course no scoreing on the drops, but other then that its alot better then not geting into a game. I gotta clean up the drop targets and theres definately more work to be done on it, but oh man, just to get it into a game is nice.

Edit:
Oh its not shooting out a 6th ball on game over, so theres that to.

Edit 2:
Taping on the playfield is making the motor move, no idea whats up with that.

#20 5 months ago
Quoted from Entity:

Taping on the playfield is making the motor move

"Taping" - There's a pretty picture. (Couldn't resist)
You meant "tapping", right?

  1. Put slips of paper in all 6 of these switches
  2. Verify that the tapping->motor move problem is gone.
  3. Then remove them one at a time until the tapping->motor move problem returns.
  4. Report back which slip of paper made the difference
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#21 5 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

"Taping" - There's a pretty picture. (Couldn't resist)
You meant "tapping", right?

Put slips of paper in all 6 of these switches
Verify that the tapping->motor move problem is gone.
Then remove them one at a time until the tapping->motor move problem returns.
Report back which slip of paper made the difference
[quoted image]

Yes tapping haha.

Are those switches the ones on the motor or the relays themselves? I'm assuming the ones on the motor but would rather verify it.

Also just lifting the playfield while in a game makes the motor spin up constantly, tapping it makes it move once, I don't know if it has something to do with the switches mentioned but i figure'd i'd note it here, anyway, back to papering those switches...

#22 5 months ago

Well... the switches are making contact through the paper on O, then it started going through on G... I may have to double up on that paper or something... Time for plan B...

#23 5 months ago

Those switches are on the relays not the score motor. Those switches circled are the only ones that cause the score motor to turn.

#24 5 months ago
Quoted from Entity:

Well... the switches are making contact through the paper on O, then it started going through on G... I may have to double up on that paper or something... Time for plan B...

Business card stock works best for this.

#25 5 months ago
Quoted from troxel:

Those switches are on the relays not the score motor. Those switches circled are the only ones that cause the score motor to turn.

Ok, good to know, looks like i'll have to change my approach. Thank you.

Quoted from MrBally:

Business card stock works best for this.

Also good to know, Thank you, I just happen to have some old business cards laying around.

I'll report back with my findings, definitely learning a lot over these few days.

#26 5 months ago

From observation, i didn't quite do the card in the relays thing, but when i tapped or lifted the playfield, the only one that was activating was the G relay (500 point relay). Also it was not adding 500 points to the score reels.

#27 5 months ago
Quoted from Entity:

From observation, i didn't quite do the card in the relays thing, but when i tapped or lifted the playfield, the only one that was activating was the G relay (500 point relay). Also it was not adding 500 points to the score reels.

Check the 16 switches on the 4 drop target banks

#28 5 months ago

Sounds like one of your drop targets is showing a closed switch. Put them all in the up position and see if the problem goes away.

If not, then you need to check the switches on the drop target.

If they problem goes away, you can hit one target at a time and see which one is making the motor one continuously and adjust that switch.

#29 5 months ago

The jack of clubs and jack of diamonds were both closed on the side pictured, i've put gaps in as shown in the picture, now the motor runs continuously when starting a game without the G relay being papered. Also one of the brown wires as shown in the picture wasn't making a good connection to the jack of diamonds, with it soldered back in place the motor continuously runs, testing without it soldered the motor did not continuously run.

On a side note, i'm gonna get some rest, been up all night. Thanks again for all your help, looking forwards to finally geting this one fully working. And if im ever down in yalls neck of the woods i'll be sure to stop by and buy lunch and beer!

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#30 5 months ago

Oh, before i forget, where does this wire go? Its on the bottom of the cabinet next to the coin/play meter. Seems like it solders to the black wire.
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#31 5 months ago

If it is the total play meter, it can connect in a few spots. I highlighted everything that connects to the Brown & White wire. Also, sometimes people don't hook up the total play meter.

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#32 5 months ago
Quoted from troxel:

If it is the total play meter, it can connect in a few spots. I highlighted everything that connects to the Brown & White wire. Also, sometimes people don't hook up the total play meter.[quoted image]

Ok, yeah that makes sense. I'll probly leave it unhooked for now, till we figure out this puzzle anyway.

As far as the drops, I'll go over all of them again just to make sure none are closed if they shouldn't be, I did notice at least one of the relays make-break switch looked like it was making contact with both contacts, the D relay, the make break switch is making contact with the upper and lower switch at the same time till its activated and the one next to it is making contact all the time. I assume this is not how its suppose to work.

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#33 5 months ago

Well... Blew the 25 volt 10 amp fuse, looks like this is on hold for the time being, gonna buy some breakers and fuses and in the meantime test all the coils, round up a parts list and order them, probly just buy all new coils. I sure aint giving up on this, not by a long shot. I'll report back when i have the breakers/fuses and hopefully some new coils.

#34 5 months ago

Might as well make a report on the different coil resistances while i'm at it on here, can you test coils in circuit or do i need to remove one side like resistors?

In hindsight i probably should've done this sooner, but i remember that one saying "hindsight is 20/20." Oh well, cant dwell on it.

All are tested in circuit

E relay: 10 Ohms (Getting replaced regardless of testing, its pretty badly burnt)
D relay: 10 Ohms
C relay: 10 Ohms
B relay: 20 Ohms
A relay: 11 Ohms
P relay: 14 Ohms
V relay: 2 Ohms (Yup, thats way to low, probly what blew it)
V relay: 15 Ohms (second coil)
O relay: 13.7 Ohms
H relay: 14.2 Ohms
Q relay: 1.6 Ohms (or this one blew it, or a combination of both)
W relay: 8 Ohms
S relay: 14.2 Ohms
R relay: 23.4 Ohms
T relay: 10 Ohms

Backbox:

F relay: 14.3 Ohms
K relay: 14.4 Ohms
L relay: 7.3 Ohms
M relay: 7.2 Ohms
N relay: 14.2 Ohms

Ball Count Unit:
Ball Advance: 3.1 Ohms
Reset: 2.1 Ohms

Replay Unit:
Advance: 3.1 Ohms
Subtract: 3.0 Ohms

Score Reels: (left to right)
6.8 Ohms
6.5 Ohms
6.6 Ohms
6.8 Ohms

Playfield:
Outhole: 3.0 Ohms
Left Flipper: 1.6 Ohms
Right Flipper: 1.9 Ohms
Left Sling: 4.5 Ohms
Right Sling: 4.5 Ohms
Clubs Reset: 6.6 Ohms
Hearts Reset: 6.6 Ohms
The Hole: 4.2 Ohms
Bumper: 1.7 Ohms
Diamonds Reset: 6.6 Ohms
Spades Reset: 6.6 Ohms

Knocker: 3.1 Ohms
Small Chime: 12 Ohms
Medium Chime: 12 Ohms
Large Chime:12 Ohms

#35 5 months ago

You should remove one side for an accurate measurement...

Here's a coil resistance chart:

https://www.flippers.com/coil-resistance.html

#36 5 months ago

You're coils look good to me. What changes did you make before the fuse blew? I would put in a circuit breaker and see if you can tell what coil is being pulled in. It might be more difficult than that, but that's a good starting point. Be careful with the 4 drop target reset coils. They are 120V.

Shameless plug, but I do sell circuit breakers on my site .
https://troxelrepair.com/product/circuit-breakers/

#37 5 months ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

You should remove one side for an accurate measurement...
Here's a coil resistance chart:
https://www.flippers.com/coil-resistance.html

Ok, will do, i'll redo it and update that post. Thank you.

#38 5 months ago

If the Hold (R) relay doesn't activate at the very least briefly when you reset the game, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features

pasted_image (resized).png
#39 5 months ago
Quoted from troxel:

You're coils look good to me. What changes did you make before the fuse blew? I would put in a circuit breaker and see if you can tell what coil is being pulled in. It might be more difficult than that, but that's a good starting point. Be careful with the 4 drop target reset coils. They are 120V.
Shameless plug, but I do sell circuit breakers on my site .
https://troxelrepair.com/product/circuit-breakers/

I wanna say i gaped the D relay to make it similar to the other ones on that line of relays, i think i ungaped it to go back to the way it was before it blew cause it still wasnt working, but i forgot to clip it back into place when i put the playfield back down, the details are a little fuzzy, but i think thats the jist of it.
Thank you for the warning on the reset coils, i'll be sure to be careful.

I'll be picking up a set off ya as soon as i put money in the bank later .

#40 5 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

If the Hold (R) relay doesn't activate at the very least briefly when you reset the game, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features[quoted image]

Ok will do, Thank you.

1 week later
#41 5 months ago

Got the circuit breakers in, installed the 10 amp one in where the 25 volt 10 amp one blew, now the reset (V) relay is going all haywire, the lower (VR?) relay constantly pulses like it trying to reset or something, no idea where to go from here. I moved the machine to make room for another machine, but yeah... Cant get into game now as far as i can tell.

#42 5 months ago
Quoted from Entity:

Got the circuit breakers in, installed the 10 amp one in where the 25 volt 10 amp one blew, now the reset (V) relay is going all haywire, the lower (VR?) relay constantly pulses like it trying to reset or something, no idea where to go from here. I moved the machine to make room for another machine, but yeah... Cant get into game now as far as i can tell.

If the motor doesn't stop turning, which of these switches or relays is stuck closed?
pasted_image (resized).png

#43 5 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

If the motor doesn't stop turning, which of these switches or relays is stuck closed?
[quoted image]

The motor isn't turning, the bottom coil on the V (VR? is the bottom coil on the V relay technically called VR?) relay is just constantly clacking away without making the motor spin. I havn't made any adjustments since the fuse blew, only moved the machine. I'll check to see if anything is stuck closed though.

#44 5 months ago

If the motor does not rotate, is it in the "service" position? There is a connector near the motor for this.

#45 5 months ago
Quoted from MrBally:

If the motor does not rotate, is it in the "service" position? There is a connector near the motor for this.

Ok, the motor did spin up when i turned it on this time, when it stopped the V relay went haywire, i noticed it stopped just shy of where its suppose to as seen in the picture, so i moved it slightly and the V relay stopped going haywire. It's reseting like it should and going back to the home position now.
IMG_20191225_160459[1] (resized).jpg

#46 5 months ago

Ok, back to the 500 point (G) relay constantly activating when in a game. I've gone over the drop targets to make sure there's nothing connected that shouldn't be, are there any other switch's that would activate the (G) relay?

#47 5 months ago

I think I may have just fixed the (G) relay issue, the tension blade on a few of the switch's was making contact with the other side of the switch, I adjusted them and now its not constantly activating the (G) relay. I'll post back here shortly after I do some more tests to see if its scoring properly.

#48 5 months ago

It's hard to be sure from the schematic and manual, but it appears that the three motor 4D switches should be open when the motor is at rest, which should keep the Reset Completed VR relay from staying activated at the end of the reset sequence.

#49 5 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

It's hard to be sure from the schematic and manual, but it appears that the three motor 4D switches should be open when the motor is at rest, which should keep the Reset Completed VR relay from staying activated at the end of the reset sequence.

That seems to be the case, Thank you for the info.

As for the scoring, some drops are scoring while others are not, gonna take another look at the drop assemblies, take em all apart and give em a good cleaning along with adjusting the switches on them tomorrow, probably clean up the score motor as well, seems like theres a bit a gunk on it, it got stuck just shy of the home position again causing the V relay to buzz again, might as well take the rest of the score reels apart and clean them up some to while i'm at it, make tomorrow a cleaning day.

4 months later
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