(Topic ID: 80051)

High Hand start-up issue

By JBK

10 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 34 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 years ago by SteveFury
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 10 years ago

My Gottlieb High Hand will not start using the replay button in the coin door. If I actuate the Start Up sequence by actuating the S coil by hand the machine starts and plays fine through that game. It acts like the coin door is dead. I've cleaned the plugs, both sides, and all the switches. The coin switches do not add credits either. If I hand actuate the W relay it adds a credit and actuates the knocker. I've checked and cleaned all the fuses/ holders and all seem working. What am I missing or where do I look next? YES, there are credits on the game.

#2 10 years ago

Do you have a schematic? Trace back from the S relay through the start button and your problem is in there somewhere.

#3 10 years ago

I have tried tracing through the schem. This thing is driving me nuts.

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#4 10 years ago

I haven't got a HH schematic, but the issue will likely lie with the Bounce switch, Anti-cheat switch, or one of the score motor switches (usually at position 2B or 1C). An example from another similar era game is shown below.

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#5 10 years ago

Check all those switches on the top of that circuit. Ball count unit, zero position replay unit (should be closed if there are credits, if set to free play it will always be closed) n/c W relay switch, the two motor switches, and the anti cheat switch. All of those, excepting the start button, need to be closed or the relay won't pull in when you push the start button.

#6 10 years ago

Make sure I'm looking at this correctly. The "ball count unit" and "zero position "replay" unit are both in the head on the replay unit?SANY2492.JPGSANY2492.JPG

#7 10 years ago

Both the replay unit and the ball count unit are in the backbox. The ball count unit is on the lower right. It has five rivets on the circuit board. At start up, the wiper will be off the first rivet until the ball crosses the trough switch. It then steps up onto the first rivet. At the end of the game, it steps off the last rivet and opens a switch that kills power to the p/f.

#8 10 years ago

Had the exact same issue with my High hand. It turned out to be a switch on the credit unit. Visually it looked fine & was making contact. The problem was that it WAS making contact, but just barely. Cleaned & adjusted switch so it had more pressure when closed & that fixed it.

#9 10 years ago
Quoted from dasvis:

Had the exact same issue with my High hand. It turned out to be a switch on the credit unit. Visually it looked fine & was making contact. The problem was that it WAS making contact, but just barely. Cleaned & adjusted switch so it had more pressure when closed & that fixed it.

The first rule of EM repair is that switches that "look" like they're making quite often aren't, and plugs that "look" like they're correctly located quite often aren't.

#10 10 years ago

I've checked the credit unit switches for adjustment, contact and verified with continuity. I re-cleaned the jones plugs and added a jumper wire on the anti-cheat switch. I still can't get a start-up with the replay button. I also can't get a credit to add through the coin switches. Bang, Bang, Bang... I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall.

#11 10 years ago

Since it won't add a credit via the coin switches, that eliminates everything to the left of the highlighted path I posted above.

Check switches at score motor positions 1C and 2B, the anti-cheat switch (on the coin door), and the bounce switch (on the bottom cabinet board). (Although sounds like the anit-cheat switch has been accounted for already, so down to the other three.)

#12 10 years ago

THe cheat switch in the door shows Normally-closed on the schem. Every time it's closed the machine goes into tilt.

#13 10 years ago

The schem shows three TILT switches. Plumb bob, incline switch and where is the other? Is the anti-cheat switch is in the door, I've always know that as a slam switch?

#14 10 years ago

If I'm not mistaken, the fact that you can manually operate the S relay and game starts ok means you can discount the Motor 2B and Anti-Cheat switch as they are in the S relay hold circuit.

Check the Orange wire that is common to the coin switches and replay button and make sure you a have continuity back to the Motor 1C switch.

Post edited by woz : added a comma

#15 10 years ago
Quoted from woz:

If I'm not mistaken, the fact that you can manually operate the S relay and game starts ok means you can discount the Motor 2B and Anti-Cheat switch as they are in the S relay hold circuit.
Check the Orange wire that is common to the coin switches and replay button and make sure you a have continuity back to the Motor 1C switch.
Post edited by woz : added a comma

Great observation.

#16 10 years ago
Quoted from JBK:

The schem shows three TILT switches. Plumb bob, incline switch and where is the other? Is the anti-cheat switch is in the door, I've always know that as a slam switch?

Often the third is under the playfield (has one of those disc weights on the switch).

#17 10 years ago

I have continuity from both wires (orange & slate) to the score motor. The odd thing is there is continuity as if the switch is closed all the time. the switches look as if they are normally closed but not sure how this would work. More things to try and figure it out.

#18 10 years ago

Did you check continuity across the NC (normally closed) Motor 1C switch? Put your meter on ohms not continuity check and measure resistance between OR and MAR-GR wires on 1C.

#19 10 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Did you check continuity across the NC (normally closed) Motor 1C switch? Put your meter on ohms not continuity check and measure resistance between OR and MAR-GR wires on 1C.

+1 - This is what happened on my High hand. I checked switch closures with the continuity tone setting & it WOULD check ok - but it was not making good enough contact to activate the "S" relay. Check with the ohms setting to be sure there is not too much resistance thru the switch.
You can also verify by running a jumper to bypass any switch(s) in question

#20 10 years ago

OK, it's starting! The culprit... the slam switch in the coin door. The switch checked good in every way possible but when I jumped it the machine starts. Now it will not go into "game over" after ball 5 drains. It doesn't serve another ball, it just sets there. The two wires on the wipers of the ball count unit, one is off. Where does it go, is it redundant to the other wire or does it go somewhere else? SANY2493.JPGSANY2493.JPG

#21 10 years ago

One goes to the spring-loaded 'shoe' and the other goes to the base.

#22 10 years ago

Repaired the broken wire. Still not going into game over, dead after ball 5

#23 10 years ago

After ball 5 drains, is it stepping to the 6th position? If it is, is the 6th position switch opening up? (it's on the back side of the ball count unit, and is opened by a post on the cam.)

#24 10 years ago

The 5th ball drains and it doesn't step. nothing happens. It doesn't serve another ball, doesn't go into game over/ 6th ball.

#25 10 years ago

I don't have High Hand schematic otherwise I'd help.

#26 10 years ago

When I got my High Hand I was having the same problem.I moved the position one over and I have been playing it with it serving up 5 balls and going to game over and then it serves up a dead ball,it also does not light up ball count on the backglass. When I put it back to the proper position ,the ball count lights up but it does not go to the 6th position for game over.My guess was that someone took the thing apart and did not put it back properly,maybe one position off . Do you think that's possible? Or do I just not have it adjusted correctly.

#27 10 years ago
Quoted from JBK:

The 5th ball drains and it doesn't step. nothing happens. It doesn't serve another ball, doesn't go into game over/ 6th ball.

Was it working properly before and then started doing this, or is this a "first time bring up" sort of problem?

#28 10 years ago
Quoted from Svendtube:

When I got my High Hand I was having the same problem.I moved the position one over and I have been playing it with it serving up 5 balls and going to game over and then it serves up a dead ball,it also does not light up ball count on the backglass. When I put it back to the proper position ,the ball count lights up but it does not go to the 6th position for game over.My guess was that someone took the thing apart and did not put it back properly,maybe one position off . Do you think that's possible? Or do I just not have it adjusted correctly.

I'd suggest starting a separate thread, and taking some pictures of the unit.

#29 10 years ago

When I brought it home and set it up it worked the way it still does now ,playing a 5 ball game without lighting up the ball count and serving up a 6th ball and ending the game , When I put it in the correct position it did what JBK describes and it did light up the ball count.

#30 10 years ago

It was working before finding the bad switch problem. With that being said I figure it was a switch adjustment I made somewhere trying to double/ triple checking the original problems from this thread. I'm going to go back through the ball count stepper and score reels today and see if I can find it.

#31 10 years ago

If it's working correctly on each ball draining up to ball 5, then that kinda suggests it's in 6th position/game over territory.

There are two paths to advance the Ball Count unit. The one being used for the five balls is via the trough switch (each time the ball rolls over the trough switch to the plunger, the Ball Count unit advances).

The other path to advance the Ball Count unit is used after ball 5 drains, and this steps it to the 6th position, putting it at Game Over.

Usually though, when it doesn't advance to the 6th position/game over, an 'extra' ball is kicked out to the plunger, which is what causes it to finally reach game over (because it's using the trough switch one more time), and the playfield is dead.

Since in your case ball 5 drains but doesn't kick out the ball and also doesn't reach game over, that makes me think that either the 6th position switch is opening early (at the 5th position), or that perhaps it really is stepping to the 6th position, and the Game Over light is out, or there's some other clue to note still.

After ball 5 drains, is the playfield still working? (flippers active, e.g.)

#32 10 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

If it's working correctly on each ball draining up to ball 5, then that kinda suggests it's in 6th position/game over territory.

^^ Exactly what DirtFlipper is explaining with illustrations. http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair#Gottlieb.C2.AE_Ball_Count_Unit_Wiper_and_Switch_States_Explained

#33 10 years ago

SANY2496.JPGSANY2496.JPGI went and did some testing on the ball count unit. The top wiper was not making contact with the 6th ball rivet. It would advance to that position but not making contact. One of the big issues with getting this game running is the oil. At some point in it's life someone added oil to everything, now I have sticky gunk on everything that moves. The wipers on the ball count unit got the same treatment. I tried cleaning the wipers and rivets but it started missing the last rivet. I disassembled the front part of the unit and cleaned, de-burred and polished the wipers and followers. After assembling everything it now makes good contact and goes into 6th ball/ game over. Now the start motor stops in a position that won't allow a restart from the replay switch. I started a new thread with this problem and was told to check stack 1C red/white wire for the indexing problem. I'm going to get at it hopefully in a little bit

#34 10 years ago

Hi JBK.
You can do a simple test: Open your machine, turn it on and gently rotate the score motor by hand and it should come on to find its next home position and stop. Each home position is 1/3 rotation.
You can do that bunches of time to verify your score motor always reaches its next home position without any issues.

I've brightened up your photo and point to the home position switch stack. You can see the row of switches are not at home position because the cam follower is not down in its slot. If you were to switch the machine on in this status then the motor should come on and stop when the cam follower for this row of switches fall into the cam slot:

You can also see the red and white wires in the photo:

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