(Topic ID: 244043)

I was wrong. I'll own it, learn from it, and move on.


By jeffro01

88 days ago



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  • Latest reply 85 days ago by orangegsx
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    #51 88 days ago
    Quoted from spinal:

    give yourself time to learn more about HEP

    If anyone hasn't seen what all goes into a HEP restore, read up on it or go through the gallery pictures.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hep-this-week-9-17-18

    Base game, rebuild everything, source hard to find parts, reassemble. Even his crating/shipping is special. That kind of quality in a restored game doesn't come cheap, and doesn't lack anything.

    LTG : )

    #52 87 days ago

    When I first saw it pop up here, I thought to myself, wow, that is a great deal. You could not get a better AF, period. I have read through tons of the HEP threads (well let's face it, that's the equivalent of pr0n to a pinball person), and I would say that the work put into that machine is worth more than that. Heck you probably could find pictures at least of that specific machine's restoration.

    What I don't get though is this: There are plenty of AF for sale all the time, and some of them are very nice, all in the price range the OP wants. Its not like they are rare or anything. Sheesh just get one of those.

    If you were lucky you could get a decent working AF that needs some work for maybe $6k and then you could send it over to HEP for the treatment and have an awesome looking and working machine. I don't know exactly what he charges, but I think you would not get out from there for under $10,500, just guessing. And it would still be worth it (IMO).

    Also, there was a thread a while back from someone who was literally begging to buy HEP machines. The cash was in hand and that person was ready and willing to pay, but they don't come up that often. Which again supports the value.

    #53 87 days ago

    LOL, pretty funny. I guess he did not bother to look up High End Pins. About as high end as it gets.

    69
    #54 87 days ago
    Quoted from High_End_Pins:

    I personally think if the title were
    High End Restorations? you would have faired better than “High End “Restorations...LOL
    Sometimes it is just the presentation that sets the tone here.
    Anyway I am sure you will have no problem finding a TAF that meets your budget and requirements and if you are new at this it is an easy mistake to make.

    You're probably right, I can admit when I'm wrong. It's okay, I have thick skin. I could have done without the posting of the thread for simple embarrassment reasons but again, that's life. I appreciate all of the comments both positive and negative. I'd apologize to the seller privately for the dumbass line as clearly I was the dumbass but I felt like I was treated rudely and responded, but I am not thrilled the person thought posting our conversation was appropriate so I'm not sure what to do.

    I'm not perfect... Such is life...

    Jeff

    10
    #55 87 days ago
    Quoted from jeffro01:

    At this point, let people pile on. I'm not going to say anything else, flame me, call me what you will. I came to ask, got hammered and that's life...
    Jeff

    I respect this, dude put foot in mouth and is taking the beating like a man. live and learn.

    #56 87 days ago
    everything-is-fine-nothing-to-see-here-please-disperse (resized).jpg
    16
    #57 87 days ago

    Time to hug it out....

    #58 87 days ago

    It was a mistake, so I'm not trying to pile on here at all, but my thought when looking at it was man, it's only $10,500 for a HEP restored TAF?

    For the OP, don't take Pinside's pricing as the end word on pricing for a machine. Home Use Only machines, especially older ones, command a large premium. Often, HEP restores command a premium above HUO machine pricing from back in the day.

    But, if your HUO machine was in a barn with no glass on it, it's not going to be worth that much. Condition is really king, and can really slide those numbers around a lot, especially the older you get.

    Additionally, for restorations, if you think about how much all the parts might cost for this, combined with the amount of time it takes to do them, the pricing is actually pretty reasonable. At $50 / hour, and thinking there are only $2000 in parts, a $7000 restoration should only take 100 hours to do.

    I've spent more than $2000 in parts and more than 100 hours on some of the restorations I have done myself.

    #59 87 days ago
    Quoted from goatdan:

    it's only $10,500 for a HEP restored TAF?

    And you don't have to wait. The work is already done. Pretty good deal if you ask me.

    26
    #60 87 days ago
    Quoted from jeffro01:

    You're probably right, I can admit when I'm wrong. It's okay, I have thick skin. I could have done without the posting of the thread for simple embarrassment reasons but again, that's life. I appreciate all of the comments both positive and negative. I'd apologize to the seller privately for the dumbass line as clearly I was the dumbass but I felt like I was treated rudely and responded, but I am not thrilled the person thought posting our conversation was appropriate so I'm not sure what to do.
    I'm not perfect... Such is life...
    Jeff

    My reputation is important to me. You chose to make the matter public. I chose to respond with transparency. I'd do it again.

    @ HEP
    Your work is phenomenal. This Addams is the crown jewel of my collection.

    @ OP
    Addams is one of the greatest pins ever. Don't be put off from getting one.

    I wanted to try and sell this pin locally first to avoid shipping, but given the attention from this thread I'll throw it up in the Marketplace today.

    #61 87 days ago

    Price is a reflection of scarcity as well.
    How many HEP TAFs are for sale at this moment?

    ONE (I presume)

    Price @ $10,500 doesn't even reflect how unobtanium this specific item is at this moment, imo.
    -mof

    14
    #62 87 days ago
    Quoted from cosmokramer:

    Time to hug it out....

    FWIW, I apologized privately.

    Jeff

    15
    #63 87 days ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    My reputation is important to me. You chose to make the matter public. I chose to respond with transparency. I'd do it again.
    @ HEP
    Your work is phenomenal. This Addams is the crown jewel of my collection.
    @ OP
    Addams is one of the greatest pins ever. Don't be put off from getting one.
    I wanted to try and sell this pin locally first to avoid shipping, but given the attention from this thread I'll throw it up in the Marketplace today.

    I didn't know who you were nor did anyone else but I understand your point of why you decided to post. I'm not mad, I can admit when I'm wrong. It's okay.

    Jeff

    #64 87 days ago

    We are a great group of pinheads in here and I for one think you were fine. You have learned something new in this hobby about restorations. And one of the best that there is at it!! I for one watch Heps thread constantly, as I have learned many a thing from this dude!!
    You could have continued your rant but did not. Now all these other f#%#^@ want to throw popcorn and add insult to injury are just bored and love a good poking ever now and then! Now where the hell's odin when you need him!!

    #65 87 days ago

    If I was in the market for an average TAF for $7k, I’d seriously consider a HEP restored pin for $10k. You won’t find a nicer example.

    #66 87 days ago

    Obviously the OP didn't understand that this was a very nice copy. That's on him. But he's not totally wrong in that $10,500 is moronic IMO for a TAF in any condition - let alone one with a replacement playfield, which is what we've got here. I've got a TAF with a mint -original- playfield, all mint parts, a bulletproof clear coat, flawless interior, the whole nine, even an -original- speaker panel sanded and polished to NIB quality (no replacement stuff here)...it's indistinguishable from one you just opened in 1992, and I could send you 50 references who would concur this.

    But if I needed to sell it, and I have no plans to, I'd never ask for $10k...it just seems absurd. I get it guys, people with money will grossly overspend for the cachet. There are people who spend $2 million for a frickin' painting. From a living artist. I'll never get that either. But the point here is that ganging up on the guy for being way off on the condition is fine, but to beat him up claiming HEP machines are worth whatever someone is selling it for simply because....HEP....gimme a break.

    19
    #68 87 days ago

    Buyer clearly didn't understand the HEP thing.... but was nice about it. He was cordial in my book.

    Seller seemed a little rude. Maybe he should've realized buyer didn't know what a HEP was, etc.

    I don't know. Threads like this get me through my day, so thanks to BOTH buyer and seller.

    #69 87 days ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    First e-mail
    Good Morning,
    In an effort to not waste your time, I'll cut to the chase. Love the machine but for a regular Addams Family (not the gold collectors edition) I'd be around $6,500-$7,000. Not trying to low ball you in any way, nor am I some sort of scammer. I'm a serious collector that would love to add this machine to my collection. Are you even interested in a conversation? Totally understand if the answer is a hard no as you might get that much out of it if you're patient enough.
    Thank you for your time reading, hope to hear back but I understand if you're taken back at where I'm at currently.
    Thanks,
    Jeff
    My response
    What you need is an unrestored Addams Family. Your budget it sufficient for one.
    Second e-mail
    Good Morning,
    Thank you for your reply. I'd be shocked if you get anywhere near $10K for a standard Addams Family but good luck nonetheless, I totally understand. If you had a Gold then we'd be having a completely different conversation. I get my valuations from pinside if you're curious as to where my number even came from.
    All of that being said though, appreciate the super fast response and I can assure you my intention was not to insult you or or your price.
    Thanks, Jeff
    My response
    Citing Pinside average values tells me you are totally unfamiliar with the value of high-end restorations. The restoration itself runs well in excess of $7000. Your budget can get you an unrestored Addams. Good day.
    Third e-mail
    Good Morning,
    LOL... I tried to be nice and respectful but then you had to take a cheap shot... If you paid $7K to restore this machine then you're in no position to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, you wasted $7k... Considering a standard Addams Family goes for around $7K, you're already in the hole so no wonder you're excessively pricing this machine. That's okay, I'm sure you'll eventually find a sucker who will grossly overpay.
    Good luck, you're going to need it...
    Jeff
    My response
    No, I'm the one who tried to be nice. Screw off you ignorant newb.
    4th e-mail
    Ignorant newb? I'm not the dumbass who spent more restoring the machine than it's worth... LOL... Again, good luck... I'm sure you'll find a sucker eventually.
    Jeff
    That is all.

    LMAO

    Thanks man. Been a long day needed that.

    I love when noobs try to chisel me down by throwing "pinside values" and other nonsense at me. When you've been doing this as long as I have you've heard it all, and you can spot a pain in the ass a mile away. That was obviously the case here.

    Seller exhibited ridiculously restrained patience if you ask me. There's nothing worse than someone pretending to be polite while calling you an idiot who has no idea what they are selling.

    You can't FORCE someone to sell you something. So make your offer and move on. When you go beyond that you are being a dick, and shouldn't be surprised by the adverse response.

    #70 87 days ago

    The seller comes off poorly in these e-mails, not the potential buyer. The potential buyer bends over backwards to try to be nice. The seller comes off like a condescending a-hole. The buyer clearly loses it at the end because of the way he was treated during the interactions.

    Quoted from mrgregb123:

    Obviously the OP didn't understand that this was a very nice copy. That's on him. But he's not totally wrong in that $10,500 is moronic IMO for a TAF in any condition - let alone one with a replacement playfield, which is what we've got here. I've got a TAF with a mint -original- playfield, all mint parts, a bulletproof clear coat, flawless interior, the whole nine, even an -original- speaker panel sanded and polished to NIB quality (no replacement stuff here)...it's indistinguishable from one you just opened in 1992, and I could send you 50 references who would concur this.
    But if I needed to sell it, and I have no plans to, I'd never ask for $10k...it just seems absurd. I get it guys, people with money will grossly overspend for the cachet. There are people who spend $2 million for a frickin' painting. From a living artist. I'll never get that either. But the point here is that ganging up on the guy for being way off on the condition is fine, but to beat him up claiming HEP machines are worth whatever someone is selling it for simply because....HEP....gimme a break.

    That’s exactly right. A nearly mint original survivor is more desirable than a restored Mr. Potato Head machine all day long. And you’d never get 10K for your nearly perfect original TAF.

    12
    #71 87 days ago

    Nothing worse then self proclaimed pro's calling others noobs, well done

    36
    #72 87 days ago
    Quoted from usandthem:

    The seller comes off poorly in these e-mails, not the potential buyer. The potential buyer bends over backwards to try to be nice. The seller comes off like a condescending a-hole. The buyer clearly loses it at the end because of the way he was treated during the interactions.

    Yeah the fourth time he reminded Norcal that "it's not even a Gold!" was the epitome of bending backwards to be nice, and the condescending "good luck with your sale" was just peachy. Top it off with coming here to stir up shit (who the f does that just because someone they don't know and likely will never speak to again doesn't accept their CL offer?!) and you've got a real sweetheart buyer.

    You guys must not sell very many games to think this is tolerable behavior.

    My favorite part is where he says "I'm totally ok if your answer is a hard no!" but then proceeds to prove over the next 4 emails that, no, he's not totally ok with it.

    #73 87 days ago

    I'm a newb and been into pinball for 7 yrs now. And learning new stuff every day!!

    #74 87 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Yeah the fourth time he reminded Norcal that "it's not even a Gold!" was the epitome of bending backwards to be nice, and the condecending "good luck with your sale" was just peachy. Top it off with coming here to stir up shit (who the f does that just because someone they don't know and likely will never speak to again doesn't accept their CL offer?!) and you've got a real sweetheart buyer.
    You guys must not sell very many games to think this is tolerable behavior.

    Yes, he lost it at the end because he was baited. Whenever I sell a machine, by the way, it goes very quickly. I always make sure I’m about the cheapest out there because when it’s time to move on, it’s time to move on. Always cracks me up about how deals on games that cost thousands can go south over $100. Pinheads are weirdos sometimes.

    #75 87 days ago
    Quoted from usandthem:

    Pinheads are weirdos sometimes.

    On this we can certainly agree.

    But as far as the rest of your stuff, there's a time to sell cheap and easy - I do it all the time - and there's a time to tell someone who is nickel and diming you and trying to educate you on one of your top pieces to fuck off.

    If all you ever sell is ratty garbage then yeah I can see how this kind of behavior doesn't bother you, as you've probably never seen it before. It's the guy trying to convince me my nice IJ is worth $5500 because it's ranked lower than WOZ or whatever on pinside that makes you want to strangle them. It's the guy who has appointed himself an expert on this stuff because he google found pinside that makes you want to tell them "good day."

    #76 87 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    LMAO
    throwing "pinside values" at me. .

    What's wrong with using "pinside values" in determining FMV? Christ, this is only the largest pinball website there is?!

    Pinside tracks sales, etc. Why you WOULDN'T look to this site as a resource is beyond me.

    #77 87 days ago
    Quoted from Blackbeard:

    What's wrong with using "pinside" values in determining FMV? Christ, this is only the largest pinball website there is?!
    Pinside tracks sales, etc. Why you WOULDN'T look to this site as a resource is beyond me.

    Telling someone who is firm on price a) what pinside rankings are, and b) what pinside values are is ridiculously obnoxious. We all know what we are doing here. Obviously someone with a restored TAF knows what they are doing. Waving price guides in their face isn't gonna make any friends.

    #78 87 days ago
    Quoted from usandthem:

    "the way he was treated" during the interactions.

    Seriously? We got ourselves a mind-reader here.

    What each one of us reads into the "tone" of an email is completely invented with the imagination and is subjective, since we can't hear the seller or buyer speak these words or see their body language to even get a qualified good guess...

    I read it 3x over just to be sure, and I didn't see "any punches thrown" objectively by the seller. I know the seller personally, so I hear his voice when I read it, and I know how helpful he often is, so I am imagining a helpful to the point tone.

    People get to pick and choose if/when they react to others -- I'd say the worst place to gamble with reacting -- is in email/text. So much is left to your subjective feelings that day. I recommend saving reactions to phone conversations where you can at least hear the tone, or better yet -- in person...

    Good day sirs.
    -mof

    #79 87 days ago
    Quoted from jeffro01:

    I didn't know who you were nor did anyone else

    You'd be surprised. It's a small community. Many locals know that's my location and my ad. One of whom alerted me to this thread as soon as you started it. What you post and whom you're posting about matters.

    #80 87 days ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    You'd be surprised. It's a small community. Many locals know that's my location and my ad. One of whom alerted me to this thread as soon as you started it. What you post and whom you're posting about matters.

    Look, if it were "gold" I'd agree with you, but it's a "standard!!!"

    Anyway good luck with your sale. You are gonna need it. Also no hard feelings if you don't want to accept my offer.

    Will you take $7000? It's a standard!!

    #81 87 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Telling someone who is firm on price a) what pinside rankings are, and b) what pinside values are is ridiculously obnoxious. We all know what we are doing here. Obviously someone with a restored TAF knows what they are doing. Waving price guides in their face isn't gonna make any friends.

    I tell sellers, who are WAY overboard on price, to check out this site to get an idea of what things sell for.

    Clearly this was buyers attempt as well. He just didn't' know what HEP was.

    #82 87 days ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    First e-mail
    Good Morning,
    In an effort to not waste your time, I'll cut to the chase. Love the machine but for a regular Addams Family (not the gold collectors edition) I'd be around $6,500-$7,000. Not trying to low ball you in any way, nor am I some sort of scammer. I'm a serious collector that would love to add this machine to my collection. Are you even interested in a conversation? Totally understand if the answer is a hard no as you might get that much out of it if you're patient enough.
    Thank you for your time reading, hope to hear back but I understand if you're taken back at where I'm at currently.
    Thanks,
    Jeff
    My response
    What you need is an unrestored Addams Family. Your budget it sufficient for one.
    Second e-mail
    Good Morning,
    Thank you for your reply. I'd be shocked if you get anywhere near $10K for a standard Addams Family but good luck nonetheless, I totally understand. If you had a Gold then we'd be having a completely different conversation. I get my valuations from pinside if you're curious as to where my number even came from.
    All of that being said though, appreciate the super fast response and I can assure you my intention was not to insult you or or your price.
    Thanks, Jeff
    My response
    Citing Pinside average values tells me you are totally unfamiliar with the value of high-end restorations. The restoration itself runs well in excess of $7000. Your budget can get you an unrestored Addams. Good day.
    Third e-mail
    Good Morning,
    LOL... I tried to be nice and respectful but then you had to take a cheap shot... If you paid $7K to restore this machine then you're in no position to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, you wasted $7k... Considering a standard Addams Family goes for around $7K, you're already in the hole so no wonder you're excessively pricing this machine. That's okay, I'm sure you'll eventually find a sucker who will grossly overpay.
    Good luck, you're going to need it...
    Jeff
    My response
    No, I'm the one who tried to be nice. Screw off you ignorant newb.
    4th e-mail
    Ignorant newb? I'm not the dumbass who spent more restoring the machine than it's worth... LOL... Again, good luck... I'm sure you'll find a sucker eventually.
    Jeff
    That is all.

    I love NorCal just a bit more after reading this

    23
    #83 87 days ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    You'd be surprised. It's a small community. Many locals know that's my location and my ad. One of whom alerted me to this thread as soon as you started it. What you post and whom you're posting about matters.

    Fair enough. I learned something today, I'll take that any day. People can think whatever they want to think of this thread and our interaction. I made several mistakes, it happens. I've owned it, haven't hid from it. I'm an honest person who doesn't normally lash out like that but that doesn't change the fact that I did.

    Life goes on. Maybe someday we'll bump into each other shake hands and have a laugh, maybe not. Either way, thank you for your time responding to me privately.

    Jeff

    #84 87 days ago
    Quoted from yzfguy:

    I love NorCal just a bit more after reading this

    See how opinions can differ.

    -3
    #85 87 days ago

    LOCK THIS THREAD!!!

    #86 87 days ago

    What I learned today is future people will "pull a Jeff" on a pricing issue.
    Ain't the worst thing to have something named after you!

    10
    #87 87 days ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    What I learned today is future people will "pull a Jeff" on a pricing issue.
    Ain't the worst thing to have something named after you!

    I'll admit, I laughed out loud a little reading that...

    Jeff

    #88 87 days ago

    Are you actually interested in an Addam's Family Gold?

    #89 87 days ago

    In this hobby, you have to do your research. Norcal is very well known, has a excellent reputation, and even a better guy. If I had the funds I wouldn’t bat a eye and buy sight unseen. Simply Norcal is a straight shooter a old school handshake kind of guy. His word, reputation and business is top notch. Next time loose your pinball police badge and do some real detective work before you come on a public forum trying to bash one of the good ones.
    Harley D.

    #90 87 days ago
    Quoted from Leeb18509:

    Are you actually interested in an Addam's Family Gold?

    Yes, that and standard TAF.

    Jeff

    #91 87 days ago
    Quoted from shovelhed:

    In this hobby, you have to do your research. Norcal is very well known, has a excellent reputation, and even a better guy. If I had the funds I wouldn’t bat a eye and buy sight unseen. Simply Norcal is a straight shooter a old school handshake kind of guy. His word, reputation and business is top notch. Next time loose your pinball police badge and do some real detective work before you come on a public forum trying to bash one of the good ones.
    Harley D.

    Noted. I had no idea who I was dealing with to be fair. No, that does not excuse my behavior or actions but it is important to keep that in mind for what it's worth.

    Thanks,
    Jeff

    #92 87 days ago

    I let go of my Adams with restored playfield for a decent price. If I had done a HEP restoration I'd want top dollar.
    I would iron out that it was HEP and not brow beat a pinsider.

    #93 87 days ago
    i-said-good-day-sir (resized).jpg
    10
    #94 87 days ago
    Quoted from jeffro01:

    You're probably right, I can admit when I'm wrong. It's okay, I have thick skin. I could have done without the posting of the thread for simple embarrassment reasons but again, that's life. I appreciate all of the comments both positive and negative. I'd apologize to the seller privately for the dumbass line as clearly I was the dumbass but I felt like I was treated rudely and responded, but I am not thrilled the person thought posting our conversation was appropriate so I'm not sure what to do.
    I'm not perfect... Such is life...
    Jeff

    It takes class to admit that you made a mistake......and apologize.
    Lesson learned.

    -2
    #95 87 days ago

    Get the book Art of the deal by DJT.

    26
    #96 87 days ago
    Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

    Get the book Art of the deal by DJT.

    He didn't write it and the author who actually did says he's an idiot.

    #97 87 days ago

    If OP is really in the market for an TAF, this would be the one to grab! Cost a few more dollars, but it will not get any better than this one! I'll give it a day in the marketplace before it's sold.

    #98 87 days ago

    OP was totally ignorant, obviously had no idea what a HEP restoration is, was arrogant, condescending, wise ass, and generally a dick. He came off as trying to lecture the seller about the value of games when it was clear he had no idea what he was talking about.
    The seller on the other hand seemed fairly cordial throughout the dialog, particularly when he realized he was wasting his time with an unknowledgeable buyer. On the bright side, OP says he apologized. So let it go, move on and learn from your mistakes.
    PS 10.5k is a deal on a HEP AF, Gold or not! Even a non-HEP AF, if very nice, will bring 6500-7500 all day long in the Phila area. I would imagine even more on the left coast.

    #99 87 days ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    I wanted to try and sell this pin locally first to avoid shipping, but given the attention from this thread I'll throw it up in the Marketplace today.

    $10,500. for a HEP is a hell of a good price. Last one I saw for sale was $13,500 a few years ago. Took a while but eventually sold for $12,500.

    #100 87 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    You can't FORCE someone to sell you something. So make your offer and move on. When you go beyond that you are being a dick, and shouldn't be surprised by the adverse response.

    Yes this exactly!... is where it went off the rails.
    You get one shot. Just make your offer- low, or low-ball, or inappropriately low because you don't know what a HEP is, whatever. If it's rejected respectfully, as NorCal did, it's over. Anything after that, other than making a higher offer, is just arguing. Why?

    Personally, HEPs are too much work/ cost for my needs, so I actually agree with you, Op! But it's got its deep pocket fans. So be it.

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    From: $ 9.99
    Eproms
    Matt's Basement Arcade
    $ 48.00
    Playfield - Other
    ModFather Pinball Mods
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    Eproms
    Matt's Basement Arcade
    $ 18.99
    Eproms
    Matt's Basement Arcade
    $ 19.99
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