(Topic ID: 106957)

Hi Tap question

By crujones4life

9 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 36 posts
  • 14 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 years ago by CactusJack
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

20141024_231700.jpg
20141024_231715.jpg
20141021_162200.jpg
20141021_164908.jpg
Screenshot_2014-10-21-16-03-31.png
#1 9 years ago

Will setting an EM to High Tap make it score faster? Like make the score reels move and score faster? And before anyone suggests...Everything and I mean everything has been cleaned and most things more than once. Thanks!

#2 9 years ago

A little, probably not enough to notice though.

#3 9 years ago

I thought the hi tap only affected the high-voltage coils (flippers/pops/slings/kickers), and not the logic or score solenoids. Am I wrong? (Really not sure so I thought i'd post this.)

#4 9 years ago

What game are we talking about? On my Williams EM the transformer has 24V/high tap output and 6V for lights. Everything other than lights runs on 24V (or high tap).

What is the issue you are trying to resolve?

#5 9 years ago

Not certain, but I believe the driving AC force for motor speed which is pulsing the reel coils is the 60Hz frequency...high tap is giving you more voltage, but at same frequency.

#6 9 years ago

1964 Williams River Boat. When ball goes over top 150 point rollover it hits bumper below before scoring all 150 points and points are lost...usually 10 and sometimes 20 points are lost. This happens even with playfield pitch at like 1 degree. I have adjusted the switch every which way and cleaned the relay. It just doesn't score fast enough.

#7 9 years ago

All 24V circuits are effected, including score reels. But it's only a few volts difference.

#8 9 years ago

No, just a boost to flippers-pops-etc. Be careful...plastics can break 'easier'. Not a fan of hi-tap. My belief is if game is all dialed in it should be fine and operate the way it was designed. I look at it like 'hot-rodding' a pin. : ) All depends on what you like and how the game plays.

#9 9 years ago
Quoted from tuffano:

Not certain, but I believe the driving AC force for motor speed which is pulsing the reel coils is the 60Hz frequency...high tap is giving you more voltage, but at same frequency.

Any way to alter frequency? Might this help?

#10 9 years ago

It won't fix your problem. As noted, it provides more volts, but it won't turn the score motor any quicker. I still think your problem has something to do with the switches. Something is letting the ball go through the rollover lane way too fast. I have RB and unless the ball just jets through the lane, which is rare, I don't have this problem.

60Hz is 60Hz. You can't change this. 60 cycles per second. This is the frequency of the oscillations of the power grid on alternating current, and has nothing to do with the game.

#11 9 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

It won't fix your problem. As noted, it provides more volts, but it won't turn the score motor any quicker. I still think your problem has something to do with the switches. Something is letting the ball go through the rollover lane way too fast. I have RB and unless the ball just jets through the lane, which is rare, I don't have this problem.
60Hz is 60Hz. You can't change this. 60 cycles per second. This is the frequency of the oscillations of the power grid on alternating current, and has nothing to do with the game.

Can you take a close up pic of the top rollover and the guides on either side of it for me? What switches do you think I should be looking at?

#12 9 years ago

Hell, I don't even know if I'm even close suggesting frequency being a factor....I did sleep at a Inn Express a few years ago though.. .But I would think no, you can't adjust the frequency or voltage to increase speed of the motor with it having been set/designed for the US 120/60 with the windings, pole, gears, etc. it has.

Maybe cleaning gears and fresh drop of oil in the pad underneath could help speed it up. Also what your seeing could just be normal...maybe someone else with this pin will chime in. I know on my games it irks me when say I hit two drop targets at the same time, but only get score for one. Game logic just not there yet...wait for the great digital era.....

#13 9 years ago
Quoted from tuffano:

Hell, I don't even know if I'm even close suggesting frequency being a factor....I did sleep at a Inn Express a few years ago though.. .But I would think no, you can't adjust the frequency or voltage to increase speed of the motor with it having been set/designed for the US 120/60 with the windings, pole, gears, etc. it has.
Maybe cleaning gears and fresh drop of oil in the pad underneath could help speed it up. Also what your seeing could just be normal...maybe someone else with this pin will chime in. I know on my games it irks me when say I hit two drop targets at the same time, but only get score for one. Game logic just not there yet...wait for the great digital era.....

It would be easier to accept as normal if EMsinKC River Boat did the same thing...but his works fine. I even tried adding foam spacers to guides to slow ball down. Worked randomly but sometimes ball still went through too fast and sometimes was so slow that i would score 300 by setting off rollover twice.

#14 9 years ago

I haven't tried cleaning the score motor (cause I didn't think that was something that was normally done). Is there a good guide with pics?

#15 9 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

It would be easier to accept as normal if EMsinKC River Boat did the same thing...but his works fine. I even tried adding foam spacers to guides to slow ball down. Worked randomly but sometimes ball still went through too fast and sometimes was so slow that i would score 300 by setting off rollover twice.

Agree with that seeing how EMKC works fine unless ball shoots thru...weird for sure. Maybe what EMKC looking for pictures of the the rollover....tension on the blades underneath adjusted so tension on rollover is increased which would slow the ball down?

#16 9 years ago

Maybe this will take care of it...not sure how I never came across this before.Screenshot_2014-10-21-16-03-31.pngScreenshot_2014-10-21-16-03-31.png

#17 9 years ago

Tearing into the motor like that is not a job for someone who is not very experienced fixing games. You're more likely to cause more problems.

#18 9 years ago

20141021_164908.jpg20141021_164908.jpg20141021_162200.jpg20141021_162200.jpg

#19 9 years ago

My motor is open so no need to tear it apart. Gonna clean it up real good. Should I just use alcohol? Looks like there is black sludge all over the gears. These look like brass so no lube right?

#20 9 years ago

Can someone verify for me if I am not to apply any lube to gears? The above guide says to use some super lube (which I have) but my gears are metal (brass I think). Should I soak this thing in alcohol or better to just use a tooth brush with some alcohol?

#21 9 years ago

Well I cleaned it up and took off a lot of sludge. I cleaned everything I could see and get to even if it didn't seem relevant including what I believe was a magnet that was caked with filth. It spins noticeably easier now. Letting dry tonight and going to put it back in tomorrow.

And if someone could let me know if I should SUPER LUBE any part of this thing before I put it back in that would be greatly appreciated. Im not going to add any oil as there still seems to be plenty left even after a vigorous cleaning with 91% alcohol.

#22 9 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

Can someone verify for me if I am not to apply any lube to gears?

I always lube the gears. With some old automotive grease that you can no longer get.

#23 9 years ago

Yes, super lube it, no problem..
What I would like to see, is a picture of before and after Hi-Tapping
on the power supply...., thanks.

#24 9 years ago

Cleaned, lubed, reinstalled and no improvement. Relay switches for rollover seem to be perfectly aligned. Rollover starts scoring the instant the ball touches it. The game just won't score fast enough.

#25 9 years ago

See if you can bend the lane guides in a bit to slow the ball down just a touch. They're just plastic with two pins that go into the playfield. But be careful with that.

If you trip by hand does the 50 point part of the scoring go as fast as say the center target or joker targets?

#26 9 years ago

Yeah it scores at the same speed as jokers. You know my ones scores faster than tens or hundreds though. They use different coils? I tried adding different sizes of felt and vinyl pads to guides to slow ball down but couldn't get it quite right. Are the guides bendable?

#27 9 years ago

Is it possible that a new coil (maybe slightly more powerful than the original) on the score reel may speed up the scoring a bit?

#28 9 years ago

Throwing this out there.
Not sure if this is it but a slim chance it could be.
You do know that timing is adjustable by how you position the score motor stacks,maybe the stack involved is not in the right position? Moving a stack fore and aft can effect timing along with accidentally swapping stacks on the Scr motor and not being in the original positions.
Like they say timing is everything.

#29 9 years ago
Quoted from Pin-it:

Throwing this out there.
Not sure if this is it but a slim chance it could be.
You do know that timing is adjustable by how you position the score motor stacks,maybe the stack involved is not in the right position? Moving a stack fore and aft can effect timing along with accidentally swapping stacks on the Scr motor and not being in the original positions.
Like they say timing is everything.

River Boat uses a platter style motor, like Gottlieb used, and not the reel type later used by Williams.

I don't think the switches are adjustable on that motor. You can move them around some on the reel type motors, but this one is pretty fixed, I believe.

In any case, a switch in the wrong position on the score motor would affect all the 50 point scoring, which it appears this doesn't.

#30 9 years ago
Quoted from Pin-it:

Throwing this out there.
Not sure if this is it but a slim chance it could be.
You do know that timing is adjustable by how you pos. ion the score motor stacks,maybe the stack involved is not in the right position? Moving a stack fore and aft can effect timing along with accidentally swapping stacks on the Scr motor and not being in the original positions.
Like they say timing is everything.

That went way over my head...lol. I am going to swap out the metal sleeve in the coil on the tens reel with a nylon sleeve. Can't hurt and maybe it will help? Hopefully it's not melted to the coil like every other one I've tried to replace.

#31 9 years ago

Great news! I do believe I have figured out the issue. Check out this coil sleeve for the tens reel...20141024_231700.jpg20141024_231700.jpg20141024_231715.jpg20141024_231715.jpg
It is cracked with a hole in it! It chewed up my plunger real good too. So I replaced this sleeve with a nylon sleeve. However it was too big so I had to cut it down (so it has rough edges). Even with the janky nylon sleeve and chewed up plunger the game scored correctly about 15-20% of the time on it's own and if I dropped the ball over the roll over by hand just right it would score correctly greater than 50% of the time! This is a pretty good sign as my game has never scored the rollover and pop bumper combo correctly until now. So I am ordering a new coil, sleeve, and plunger on Monday. Fingers crossed this finally fixes this issue for good!

#32 9 years ago

It is covered on another thread but I found using a mini tube cutter provided clean & excellent separation of a coil sleeve to shorten it.

ebay.com link: Mini Tubing Cutter Copper Pipe Cutting 1 8 5 8 OD Rigid Plumbing HVAC NEW

#33 9 years ago

I have a different opinion about lubing score motor gears. Lubrication of any kind attracts dirt. We know that dirt in moving parts cause wear and dust/dirt always accumulates in the bottom of our cabinets.

Game manufacturers never lubed the gears in an open gearbox and I suspect its for a reason.

I always clean greasy gears with solvent and an old toothbrush to leave them dry as the designers intended. I make sure the pads in the oil holes are plenty damp with light oil as recommended but that's all.

To me, the greasy gears in the previous open geabox photos look like real potential trouble.

#34 9 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

Check out this coil sleeve for the tens reel...

I was thinking you might have had more of an issue with the reel mech than the score motor. Glad you figured it out!

Quoted from SteveFury:

Game manufacturers never lubed the gears in an open gearbox and I suspect its for a reason.

No grease eh? I would think dry gears might have a tendency to wear or strip. But if they didn't use any, then they knew best.

#35 9 years ago

Ordered new plunger, coil, sleeve, and tension springs from PBR today. I'll post back after everything is replaced.

#36 9 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

No grease eh? I would think dry gears might have a tendency to wear or strip. But if they didn't use any, then they knew best.

For motor gears: Metal on Metal, I would always use grease to prevent wear. Every enclosed gear box I have ever opened was well coated at one time with grease. First gear is sometimes Phenolic to reduce noise and requires grease so that the next metal gear doesn't eat it away.

Nylon on Nylon, I could see not using any grease. But would still use light oil on the shafts and any bearings.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hi-tap-question and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.