Chatter says both, but I don't think we've heard anything definitive.

JJP use Mirco in Germany, so no. Hence why their pfs look so much better ... and have the thick, shiny, durable automotive clear.

Before anyone pipes up about the early defective WOZ pfs, thoee weren't Mirco, they were a US supplier.

Either send it back or request a discount and get those areas professionally sanded back.

The WOZ and Funhouse pfs I have are flawless, and look immeasurably better than any Stern pf that I've ever seen.

You just said you wanted it in writing .. now "he's read the request" is good enough? That seems foolish. If it's not in writing, don't count on it.

That's absolutely dreadful. I haven't seen an ST from the runs done this year, but my ST Premium (December 2013 assembly date) has the same colouration and saturation as the left hand one. Also zero ghosting or clear chipping. Bought HUO from another pinsider, based in the US, with a Transatlantic journey to boot.

Aside from lower cost (even after packing, transport and tax paid upon entry to the UK), my main reason for not buying a new one was that I was very wary of more recent builds ('15 and early '16) ... and this was before the tidal wave of playfield issues and change in supplier.

If those photos are truly representative of what this year's run look like ... then bloody hell.

Is anyone still in any doubt as to whether this was all down to saving (large sums of) money, or just some unfortunate production issues? Clue - it's not the latter.

The lone '16 production date and title Stern I've seen, a GB Pro, was pretty alarming to me (and cabinet looked like yours). Might as well have been made from balsa wood. To boot, looks like some real care and craftsmanship went into that welding ...

In my view Stern looks like a company that's fattening up its books for a sale somewhere in the not too distant future. The cost cutting, price gouging and increasing quality deficit relative to the competition make little sense given how extreme they seem to have become, and certainly aren't sustainable. Only way it makes sense is to maximise profit in very near term, ripening it for a larger sale price.

Profit margins were already very high before the latest 'economisation' at Stern. The private equity people who rescued the company in 2008 may want out ... and they might be sensible to given the rising competition and seeming bubble. Certainly they'd be well advised to sell before the chickens come home to roost, vis a vis the firm's reputation for (poor) quality.

Anyway, to answer your question, plenty of people if there's money to be made.

Did you feel that area by the pops? It looks there's a deep divot out of the PF ...

It's good that your distributor took care of you .... even if they are legally obliged, they could have drawn it out and made it very difficult.

But on the other hand, this is completely fucked. Stern are hanging their distributors / resellers out to dry ....

On a personal note, aside from not wanting to buy machines with a bunch of issues, made on the cheap, for an inflated price, I don't want to buy a brand which treats their network of sellers like dirt.

@kapsreiter ... if Stern are saying LEs (and only LEs) by January '17, that means they'll drag it on further, almost certainly. Once people have waited that long, most will feel too defeated if further delays are inflicted. Eventually a good number will give up. Also farcical that they're trying to get away with only replacing LE pfs and not Pro or Premium.

Indeed, quite the contrary.

A few (handful) of people in Canada and the US are saying positive things.

From EU, the little we have heard has been awful, and otherwise silence, with Stern stone walling for months now.

Australia I don't think there's been any news either.

Ghostbusters, SMVE, and the various other affected games this year would seem like a pretty relevant example ...

They refused to even reply to most resellers and some distributors for months and months, and now the only solid info we have is that they intend to replace LE playfields from January next year (maybe).

Absolutely not, as this now 82 page thread would tend to suggest.

Until Stern promise publicly to replace all of the effected Pro, Premium, LE and VE machines or populated PFs with the problems, there isn't one. They haven't, and I don't expect them to.

What we've heard so far is that they intend to do it for GB LEs and then try to skip over the rest ... and their ETA even for that is 4 months hence.

I don't have one. I just find it extraordinary that people are giving Stern a pass on this when they're clearly trying to sweep this appalling saga under the rug. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. Were this one of the new upstarts in the industry, some on Pinside would likely be waging a concerted campaign to have the staff / management lynched.

I did potentially dodge a bullet though in March / April. I wanted an ST Premium, but decided to buy a HUO older build date one instead, as I didn't trust even '15 build Sterns to not have significant issues, and knew their construction had been cheapened ... and this was before the chickens came home to roost, so to speak.

There's no way in hell they'll do that. Though duties (as they're replacement parts) should be waived.

They could ship dozens (if not hundreds) of built up, boxed PFs over in containers with new games. But it simply wouldn't be worth shipping the old ones back. They'd need to write them off ... which I'm doubtful they'd do.

Most likely it will fall to distributors / resellers to rebuild PFs. Even in Europe, as opposed to UK/AU, there are relatively few people that do this on a professional basis, and those that do charge (rightly) large sums to do it given how time consuming it is on relatively complex modern games. Are Stern going to pick up that bill? Doubtful.

This is likely why they're trying to get away with just replacing GB LEs.

EU law dictates that they're obligated to repair or replace faulty consumer goods, which ALL pinball machines sold to private individuals are.

People here aren't going to wait forever for Stern to pull their fingers out ... in the mean time distributors and retailers are pretty screwed.

If you're talking about the one at Chief Coffee, you haven't looked very closely ... there are chunks of clear gone, clear is cracked around a couple of inserts (and they're lifting a little), and the saucer on the right is already really beaten up. Shooter lane damage too.

That's about 2 months of play. Albeit in a coffee shop .. but when I was there recently the other games were very busy, and I was the only person that played GB in an hour or so (3 games). Everyone was stuck to Hobbit, WOZ, MM & CV (ST had been sold and switched off).

That's clearly not the kind of terrible wear others are seeing, but it's very bad for a 2 month old game that realistically can't have seen more than 1500 plays, and average ball times are probably extremely short.

Aside from the saucer, where the wear is very obvious just from a glance, when I was looking closely, I was surprised to see no ghosting ... but then I saw 2 or 3 inserts with the clear cracked all the way round, and looking like they were lifting - that's really bad. Also, towards the edges of the pf, there are several chips of clear gone. Shooter lane looks like it's wearing too. The clear, whilst being glossier and thicker than Stern PFs have been recently, does not look like it's of a uniform thickness. It looks 'blobby'.

Speaking of the shooter lane, it's very obvious, as other people have commented on, that the playfield supplier and specification have changed (cheapened). The look of the wood is totally different. It's very coarse and streaks of sapwood are much darker. It appears to be of a much cheaper, lower grade. I'd also put money on it being significantly softer (hence all the stories of warping).

Let me stop you there.

If Stern were being forthcoming and had made clear that they would look after the resellers and distributors overseas and in a timely fashion, who are compelled by law to look after their customers with defective product (unlike the US), then I see no reason why some of them would be difficult or try to make the problem go away. On the contrary, this would be a good opportunity to win the trust of their customers and show good service.

But Stern are categorically not doing anything of the sort.

This sounds like something from Monty Python or Fawlty Towers.

If serious, no wonder they're saying nothing.

The one I've played in London had much worse saucer wear than that. In 6 months it will probably look worse than the T-Rex saucer on my JP that has probably had 200K or more plays.

They'll continue to wall and stall until such time as lawsuits come tumbling in, and then they'll keep doing until they think it's no longer in their interests.

They haven't gone this long without addressing it for no reason. It's now 6 months since the first (large clusters) of reports came in. Soon it will be 12 months ...

I don't think they will at all. Hence why Stern won't look after people. The cheapening is to increase margins. Replacing stuff (with higher quality product) would lower them again. Though given the scope of the problem, I'd be surprised if nobody in the US initiates a lawsuit.

Outside the US, it's very different. In the EU the sellers are legally obligated to fully repair, replace or refund the owners at no cost to them, given that the goods are demonstrably faulty. If this drags on, some who want resolution will force the resellers' / distributors' hands. At that point, if Stern still won't budge, it'll be the latter that take them to court. Some will be forced to, as they won't be able to sustain the losses incurred due to Stern's inaction.

Not only have they not 'fixed' anything, but there's still no confirmation of any 'programme' to look after people with completely borked pfs.

IF (big if) it all gets dealt with, re-place the order in future.

Why take the risk? Especially when you may find that after Expo you'd rather buy something else, anyway.

Nonsense.

Vast majority of machines shipped previously arrived fine, but within hours, days, weeks or months they were a mess.

A new clear process isn't going to fix the issue. May help, but certainly won't fix.

The wood is too young, too soft, too coarse, and ultimately too prone to warping.

Was that not supposedly just LEs ...?

It isn't fixed, and is unlikely to be.

It would require going back to paying much more for their pfs, which they absolutely won't. They took an axe to the largest cost of the machine, and aren't going to do an about turn.

I'm sure they're seeking ways and means of minimising the fallout of their decision ... but back to a higher grade of wood? Pull the other one. They may give a few days extra to let adhesives and clear settle, but not weeks and weeks, and the underlying issue will always remain with the wood they use. May be enough to stop most of the issues in the first hours, days and weeks, but I'd bet money on any 'fixed' pfs developing exactly the same issues in months or years, because the wood is too unstable.

It's based on them using cheap unaged wood ... it's in plain sight.

Even if you choose to ignore the clearly younger, lower grade of wood, what do you think is causing the warping and movement? It's not changes in lunar / solar cycle, I can tell you that much.

Yes I do know.

Evidently you seem to think you know otherwise, as to the cause of the problems ... I'm sure everyone would be very grateful to be enlightened.

It is known ....

I think they've used a mix of maple and birch for some time.

The GB lane pictured looks like very, very young wood to me, though IMO it looks better than 2 GB Pros I've seen which had crazily soft, rough looking sapwood in the shooter lane (both losing clear).

It's not just that it's softer, per se (i.e. lower index of hardness), but it's way more prone to movement and warping.

The evidence is in plain sight as I've already stated. Why do you choose to ignore it?

I think it's probably more like $50+ than $5 .. compared with the Churchill ones.

It isn't ... we established long ago that these aren't errant batches. It's a systematic problem ... and as he correctly states, nothing's fixed.

They've probably stopped adding production dates, for obvious reasons ... they will continue using faulty stock long after it is 'fixed' (if it is).

If true that must have involved some massive humble pie, and probably giving Churchill a better deal than they had in the first place.

I assume cabinets aren't being switched back to them? Not that it would matter as those were super cheap before the switch.

I'm pretty sure they had a major falling out with them (probably over pricing) and they were on their way to totally phasing out the use of Churchill pfs ... the bulk of new pfs are definitely not theirs.

Losing an engineer of 40 years in a company that size and responsible for that kind of production isn't going to result in this. The rumour sounds totally spurious, or perhaps started by Sternistas to deflect.

I hope it is true that they're reverting (wholly) to Churchill ... but let's not pretend that their offering (commissioned by Stern) hadn't gone majorly downhill in recent years.

If we're lucky, Stern feel that the fallout from this has been so damaging that they're prepared to pay a bit more for a better quality pf, better than before the switch ... but I really doubt it.

What in the actual fuck ....

How is that even possible? Especially the one on the pf. Where are you based? Was it shipped by container and then potentially impounded at a customs clearing warehouse for an extended period? Regardless, still shouldn't happen.

They must be using some super-duper cheap chinese steel ... looks like it's been given repeated salt water baths.

It isn't surprising at all, and a makrolon protector will have close to no effect on preventing inserts rising or sinking. Once they've dropped or risen so far that chipping becomes an issue, it will help stop them getting totally smashed.

The inserts are sinking or popping up because the wood is too young and too soft. It's moving and warping, hence all the inserts (particularly triangular ones) ghosting. Plus they probably don't allow adequate time for the adhesives to settle properly before the pfs are transported or machines undergo final assembly, and become subject to vibrations and loads.

No it is not speculation.

This is why inserts rise or fall. The 'ghosting' you see is due to an initial and small rise or drop of the plastic insert in its hole. This typically gets worse over time, until such time as there is a pronounced lip which will then get smashed to pieces by the ball.

The clearcoat itself is obviously less than ideal given that bits of it fall off and chip so quickly, but that's probably at least in part due to the wood moving as much as it does. But the clear is not the cause of 'ghosting' ... the whole insert falling into or being pushed out of the playfield is what you are seeing.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or actually serious. Stern will never say what happened, at least not with any element of truth.

I'll explain very simply:

1) You are seeing 'ghosting'.
2) What is ghosting? The insert is either rising or falling in its insert (usually rising out of), applying pressure to the layer of clearcoat over it and turning it opaque in the process.
3) But why doesn't the whole insert go opaque? Because as the insert rises or falls, the clear in the middle of the insert and the clear on the playfield around the insert don't have additional pressure placed on them. Around the edge of the insert is where the force is exerted on the layer of clear.
4) So why does this happen? For the insert to rise up out of or drop down into the playfield, the playfield must be moving, warping and expanding and contracting. Usually if it happens at all on playfields it's due to many years of often hard use, the adhesives eventually breaking down that hold the insert in place, and storage in poor conditions. The triangular inserts having more issues or going first is due to 'pinching'.
5) So why is it happening so quickly? Most games are coming out of their boxes fine (a few exceptions). If the adhesive used to hold the insert in place was seriously faulty or not set, then more games would be coming straight out of the box with ghosted inserts, as the constant vibration during transport would make everything ghost. Most of the ghosting is occurring after the game has been set up, and within hours and sometimes minutes of play beginning. During the normal course of play, there will be larger forces placed on the playfield by the player moving the game, coils and mechs firing etc etc than during transport or assembly. This will cause some movement in the wood. Historically this has not been a major issue, as the wood is old enough and hard enough that it doesn't move and warp enough to cause immediate ghosting (and then serious playfield and insert damage) within the space of a minute percentage of the game's expected life. As the wood is very soft and very young, we see the recent problems with Stern.
6) So why are they doing this? One can only speculate, but softer younger wood is cheaper wood ...

Any questions?

They're likely to exhaust existing supply of 'Fun' pfs, and there's also no information yet that Stern will return to using Churchill exclusively.

I would wait. There's absolutely no reason not to.

They've been doing exactly that for pretty much 9 months, since the first wave of badly effected SMVEs shipped.

I'm pretty sure they got exactly what they paid for ...

There are some really bad printing errors, so it could be variance within batches from the same manufacturer. Unless one has Churchill's markings on it, and the other no identifying marks, I wouldn't take that to mean different OEMs or that one is Churchill.

Everything as far as I know ... some of the recent run of STs look horrendous.

1 person has posted about how bad the colours are, another the alignment of the printing layers was totally off so it has a '3D effect'. I'm sure they're not the only two.

-

Potentially that bodes very poorly for existing Premium / Pro owners if they're still just talking about LE pf replacements.

Positively it does appear to be true that they're moving at least some production back to Churchill. I wonder if that includes new Pros, though ...

A number of people have claimed on here that they have personally spoken to Uncle Gary and that he told them they'll be looked after, and are "in the programme" for pf replacement. Quite a few of those were Premiums or Pros.

But not everybody has put much stock in those relatively numerous but remarkably similar reports ....

Several have said it's LE or LE and Premium only, and one that their distributor had said Stern stated they wouldn't even consider replacements for Pros as they're for a commercial environment ....

If he was very specific that everyone would be sorted out, he'd have said all effected playfields, in all effected machines, of all versions in all territories, and what their criteria are for a pf to qualify as replacement worthy. He said nothing of the sort.

He also said in the same seminar that they'd been doing exactly the same thing with their pfs for 30 years and didn't know how it had gone wrong (ho ho ho ho).

It may be the case, and hopefully is, but you're being way too optimistic given the history of this saga and extremely limited information available.

From initial reports, they've been shipping non-Churchill pfs as replacements ... so yeah ...

Have any replacements been Churchill yet? AFAIK, no.

They're obviously exhausting stock of the old ones.

Has it been confirmed that any of the handful of pf replacements that have happened have been Churchill yet? AFAIK all of them are the old 'Fun' ones with misspelled inserts.

Have any of the recent screwed up GoT / ST / SM VE been replaced yet?

Is that a large crack / score mark on the Scoleri insert, as well as the ghosting? Looks way bigger than the usual micro scratches.

I feel their communication has been very consistent and their intent abundantly clear from the get go.

That is, to string this out as long as possible and try to sweep it under the rug. At no time has there been any change.

Some of you still seem to think it's naiveté on Stern's part, or that they're incompetently trying to resolve things. I don't think anything could be further from the truth. It looks like it's been carefully orchestrated and is going exactly according to plan.

European distributors are taking hits and replacing machines (not them), the few pf replacements (still Fun not Churchill) that have been carried out make people wait and gives them false hope, others have lost all hope and given up waiting and sold, no-one has taken legal action yet ...... and most importantly of all, people are continuing to buy even more expensive titles, one of which already seems plagued with issues (BM'66)!

Tell me how that could be any better for them?

You should change the wording to include those with playfield printing issues too (registration and alignment, or extremely washed out colours). They date from the same period and seem to be part of the wider problem with Stern pfs currently.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/first-nib-stern-is-this-standard-playfield-print-quality

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hey-stern-are-you-serious?tq&tu=Ngoett#post-3320907

Think there were some other posts or topics, but can't remember where.

Either they are pitted or the clearcoat is, or both? Try feeling top and underside of pf ... are they rough? It looks like the plastic itself rather than cc. Looks almost like the insert got eaten into by some of the chemicals in the clearcoat, when sprayed.

It wouldn't surprise me if Churchill and Stern quickly ended their relationship again. There's a reason they fell out in the first place - pricing pressure. Same thing happened with cabinets.

If they do in future or have already terminated pf agreement with Churchill, it's likely because they agreed to a lower price point, but with the proviso they couldn't guarantee low defectivity, defects immediately show up and Stern start pointing fingers, Churchill say "we told you" and stop production.

Could also be the issue that as Stern are clearly still using FUN and / or other suppliers in addition to Churchill that are terrible quality, they don't want to be tarred with the same brush.

Likely all Fun, or what ever their name is. There have been a lot of reports of printing issues - faded colours, alignment issues etc - as well as all the insert issues , cratering and wear.

The lack of health and safety regulations or adherence to them in the US boggles the mind almost every time i see non cutting edge facilities. It's nothing like Canada, Europe or Australia .... or even China, in many cases.

Horrible for workers ... but also one of the reasons the US has remained semi competitive for low tech stuff unlike other advanced economies.

I'd buy a Q3 2015 or earlier HUO if you want to be safe. '16 and '17 are a total lottery, and the cabs are definitely cheaper now anyway.

Is that for real? Clear repair kits from Stern?

If it's come down to this, I can see droves of the remaining faithful deserting.

Also, they might want to put very obvious toxicity warnings on that jar of extremely nasty chemical, before a kid drinks it or someone seriously harms themselves, and they get sued for an amount which bankrupts the company ....

Process, materials (namely wood) and OEM were cheapened. They like cheap.