Would relief cuts formed around the inserts make any difference? Or would it just open up a new can of issues?

I wasn't thinking about cutting them...but rather something done in the clearcoat process itself, more like a cookie-cutter approach with the soft clear applied. I thought about it the same as what is done with concrete....the relief channels give it a natural path to crack when expansion and contraction takes place.

Probably the best thing one can do to lessen the chance of ghosting is to keep the pin in as stable an environment as you can. Keep away from windows, sunlight, garages, exterior walls, etc, and keep the temp at a constant. Basements are good to regulate temperature, but they are notoriously humid, so run a de-humidifier unless yours is abnormally dry. Best place in a home is probably near the center of the ground floor. I have several antique games with doors that will stick if the humidity gets too high, and in turn will show gaps if the humidity is low. I run a dehumidifier in the summer, and a humidifier in the winter to keep everything at an even humidity level.

Vid can chime in here, but I am guessing one reason we see this so much more these days is because home machines are constantly turned off and on. (Hot/Cold Cycles) Pins on location are turned on constantly, and therefore they are at a more constant temp. Even LED's do put off some heat.

Ha.....If it were a fish tales. then I would agree...lol

I'm not saying it should happen, I am just saying a temp and humidity stable environment is the best chance to keep it from happening or at least from getting worse, and why not do what you can to protect yourself? I am no expert on playfields, but I have to imagine it is hard to get the clear to properly adhere to plastic inserts. It may not be the clear they are using....maybe the makeup of the inserts changed and caused the issue....truth is none of us know for sure. We all know how hard it can be to glue anything plastic and have it stay for any length of time, so this has got to be an ongoing challenge, especially when they are not doing the playfields themselves. If it is not separating when it goes down the line, how is QA supposed to know it is going to happen and reject it? If we told them to keep the playfields for another 2 months and let them cure, then everyone would be screaming because they are behind. I am NOT saying it is right or acceptable, and I am not saying it isn't either......I am merely saying it can't be easy, and tact and conversation work better than torches and pitchforks....or even porches and titchforks.

Wasn't suggesting the rubber glove treatment...merely saying if you want to lessen the chances or amount of damage, a controlled environment is best. I had a friend who had one of those inflatable bubbles he would park his Harley in that circulated air around the bike and controlled the humidity. Maybe one of those would work for my pins.......lol

I don't think anyone said controlled environments will prevent this from happening. It just stands to reason there will be less change over time in a controlled environment. Yes, there is a problem if they are ghosting this quick, and stern needs to figure it out. But sitting a pin in a damp basement, or a hot/cold garage will not make the problem any better.......

I don't think anyone said there isn't an issue. Some said "accept it and play" and others want a new game and replacement storm windows on their house. I'm guessing the real solution is somewhere in between....but for the record, I think everyone agrees there is an issue....any guess at the cause is just that, a guess.

I think everyone agrees there is an issue with these games, and the disagreement is whether or not it is acceptable. There are folks on both sides, and I respect that. But let's change gears a bit and talk about the actual post and why Stern has not responded to the OP. Whether you agree or disagree that the ghosting is acceptable is irrelevant. There are a lot of examples posted about how their customer service folks have gone above and beyond to help out various customers, when the process is handled in a calm and professional manner. Now I will admit, the only one with all of the details is the OP, so I am just going by what is being posted, but to start a thread which calls out the company, and to immediately start dragging them through the mud on a public forum, is not the way to get them to help you. We now have 30 pages of complaints, opinions, and threats of legal action. Stern is in a "no-win" situation here, and what is an issue that they probably would have addressed with each buyer individually, has now become a social media spectacle that they can't touch with a 10ft pole. Some of you will argue that the post "got Stern's attention" and alerted the other buyers to the problem....and there is probably some merit to that argument. But the company would have investigated a complaint through normal channels, and would have figured out they had an issue just the same. As to the players, at this point the ghosting is a cosmetic issue and doesn't affect play, so who knows whether most folks would have even noticed the problem or cared. (Note: When I say "cosmetic", I am only referring to the ghosting, and not things like cracked or raised inserts).

In this instant age, we expect answers fast. There is going to be a delay, from the time something like this is reported, until you get an answer. Set aside the fact that you are in a different country and dealt with your distributor.....the first reaction from Stern (and a natural one) is going to leave them more concerned about their company as a whole, rather than your one piece. They are going to start inspecting playfields, opening boxes and checking completed machines, calling their playfield folks and trying to determine what the problem is and how widespread it is. Then they will get back to addressing the initial complaint. Obviously, there are a lot of games out there with the issue, and like I said, Stern is in a bad spot here. Since this has gone out on a public forum, they must assume anything they do will get criticized, and anything they don't do will get criticized. If they give you a new playfield....everyone and their dog is going to be lining up at their door for a new playfield for every little chip, scratch, nick, or color variation they can find, else they will start their own thread about how Stern "Jobbed" them. They are already getting roasted here, and even if the do "something" they are still going to get roasted, so why do anything? Especially when threats of legal action have started? Most companies go "hands off" of any complaint when that talk starts, since they don't want to do anything to jeopardize their position.

So I am NOT saying you don't have a valid complaint, and maybe you did do a service to the industry by posting what you found. Some will say yes, and some will say no. What I am saying, is you may have hurt your chances of them helping you in the process. I hope you get some satisfaction along the line. As others here have said, our only real weapon for change is not to buy...but something tells me there will be plenty of folks lined up at the next announcement.

They supply the power cable for the bill validator with the unit, but you have to route it yourself if you want it in there. All of the power components are in the head, including the connection on the back for the power cord. Very clean, and I see why they did it, in order to keep the components together. Lower failure rate, and easy replacement. The power switch is easy to reach and not an issue.

As a side note...remember back when all we had to freak out about were the magnetic slings? Yea...good times....lol

While I agree this is a QC issue that needs to be fixed, and hopefully already has......I don't think it is quite a "bait and switch" type of situation. Stern is working to address the problems, and I am sure they did not want these going out, especially with the uproar they have caused. The problem started to appear after most, if not all, of the foreign models were shipped. We have no idea of the internal conversations, the QC process, etc. I doubt they left the line with the separation, and Stern cannot predict the future, so I do believe they were sold in good faith. So not really advertising one thing and knowingly selling another. Now with all of that said, they will be judged on how they rectify the situation with people. They really need to step up and start communicating, however, given the animosity and fact anything they say will be blasted out to the masses, I can kind of understand why they are staying mum right now. They are in a bad spot....yes, they made the spot, but I doubt it was a conscious decision on their part.

I agree in the communication...if it were my business, I would be issuing some sort of blanket statement.

I'm basing my comment on the fact they stopped the LE's from going down the line, and they obviously pulled and replaced a lot of playfields. As an example, my playfield was produced long after the cabinet, and we saw non-export models going down the line many weeks before any were ever shipped. I'm sure once the reports came in, they started un-boxing and looking a lot closer at the playfields. This is just an educated guess on my part, but I do believe they feel they fixed whatever was causing the issue the separation...else they would not have released any more LE's. Whether they did fix it or not is still up in the air, but so far (with my fingers crossed), my LE is fine.

Do we even know for sure that any of the US GBLE's have ghosting? I have seen a post where someone said he knew folks in America that claim to have issues, but I don't think I have seen a post from anyone here in the US with a Ghost Busters LE that is separating. I have seen Spiderman, and several others, but not GB from these last shipments. Granted, I don't read every post, so I may have missed something. I am not talking poll here....I am saying actual pictures?

Do we know production dates? These could have been held in customs, or produced early and shipped later. I would be really interested to see anyone with the issue in the late July playfield run. So far I haven't seen any....but of course it may be just because they are new. It will take a few weeks/months to be sure. They have done nice playfields in the past, so it should be a fairly easy problem to correct. May have been something as simple as some silicone or other contaminant on the insert, or a bad batch of insert glue. But then again, I will admit I know nothing about playfield production................

Like my first Police Chief told me my fist day on the job....."Just remember, it takes 10 'Atta-boys' to equal 1 'Oh-Shit'........."

I don't think they have started doing their own quite yet. They indicated they were moving that way, but that it would take time to get production in order.....like close to another year.

I have faith in you Iceman....my LE build was mid-July. A few hundred plays, and so far no insert ghosting that I can find......knock on wood. I am betting there are a lot more good playfields out there. Those folks are just too busy playing the game and having fun, and don't have time to come here and post how great things are.....lol

End result is there is little customers can do, outside of a civil action. You have to be careful with public statements which could hurt their business and give them ammo to go after you. The T-shirt would likely be a borderline tactic at best. All they need is one exaggeration, false statement, etc, and you will get served. If they really do choose to ignore the problem as most people think, the answer is a collective suit, so a judge can decide if customers are entitled to some remedy for the ghosting.

No idea on the water-based clear, so I am as interested as you.

As to the possibility of legal action...you can sue anyone for just about anything. And you are partially correct, in that your only other remedy is to vote with your wallet. But that only hurts the company later, and does nothing to fix the issue at hand...which makes a civil case the only binding action. There are a lot of laws out there that trump anything they print on a piece of paper, and there is nothing saying what they wrote is legal, enforceable, and concrete. It is just something they wrote......probably with the help of some attorney, and the letter is nothing more than his opinion. But the law of "common sense" and "reasonable expectation" would come into play. IF, and I mean a big "IF" the ghosting were determined to be a flaw that the company should have prevented, then the court would probably say something to the effect that "regardless of what you print, the customer pays 8K and reasonably expects a clear-coat that will not immediately separate and chip from the playfield". This would be beyond normal wear and tear, and the court would ask buyers be compensated somehow. The real power in this method is that it would probably be addressed in mediation, and well before it ever got to court, in order to avoid the negative publicity.

But......for all of this to work, it needs to be a determined flaw, and you need a group of solid, sane, and even-tempered folks to take up the cause.

Interesting...would like to see photos and date on playfield.

I received my GBLE in the 3rd week of July, and so far so issues, so I was hoping they had corrected the problem. But based on some other postings, I am starting to think that may not be the case.

Went back and looked. My PF date is also the 7th.....no ghosting that I can find so far.

Just a game......yes it is expensive, but I have lost more money than this in a day. I love watching all of the folks here who get bent out of shape by what other people do with their money and property. I for one am playing the hell out of my game, and if it develops ghosting, I will send my distributor an e-mail. If they fix it, great....if they don't, then I am going to keep on playing. If I had bought it as an investment, then I would never have unboxed it. Pretty much NOTHING discussed here on Pinside, means anything in the end....so have fun, and don't give a crap what someone else does....................

And on that note, we should just close this thread......we still don't know if Stern is serious, but at this point......who cares!

Gotta love it. For the record, I don't think one issue makes it a shitty game. The problem will get figured out, and if not, I am not going to loose sleep over it. I know hundreds of folks, alive and dead who would love nothing better than to come home today and see an insert problem on their new pin. So yea, maybe I am OK with a shitty game............

Not saying any of my experiences have anything to do with inserts....quite the opposite. What I was trying to convey, without giving the details you mention, is that there are a whole lot more important things to be worrying about in life. I'm sure there are a lot of guys here who served overseas or even locally with more baggage than me.....and we come here to have fun and play pinball as you mention. Ghosting inserts are just a bump in the road.......All is good

Wasn't lecturing....another party took a comment and exaggerated that to post how I was OK with a shitty game. I don't like problems any more than the next person, and when mine starts ghosting, I will add my name to the line of folks waiting to see what Stern does. However, with that said, I am not going to lose sleep, throw a fit, or go around telling everyone the "pinball sky" is falling. It sucks...yes....but there are worse things in life.

I agree it sucks, and I am sure mine will be cracking soon. My biggest gripe through this whole mess is that Stern says nothing, which drives all of the rumors and speculation. And yes, I suppose I know they can't say anything due to legal ramifications, but even if they tell us all to piss off, it is better than silence in my books. At least we would know where we stood and what to expect. There I go....that is about as animated as I will get over the subject....lol

Yep, several of the inserts have mylar applied

"What I do know is Stern is about to experience a broomstick up their arse, with loss of general sales.
The word is spreading beyond PinSide.
Distributors are trying to calm the waters. "

I agree, and in this case, they have been their own worst enemy. This whole social media experiment is both brilliant and dangerous at the same time.

You and a lot of others. Don't get me wrong, Stern is going to be feeling this for a long time, and it could be the stuff legends are made of. They need to be careful, because as bad as it is, it can get distorted and twisted into something much bigger, much more sinister, and ultimately something that can kill a company. Reputation is everything, and I am sure there is some arrogance on their part about all of this because they still have a backlog of orders. But that backlog is their making, and once the flood gates open, new sales might just dry up fast. Stern cannot survive in their current state with only route sales. As I have said before, they are in a bad spot......anything (and everything) they do is going to be broadcast to the masses and put under a microscope at the same time. They need to find someone who knows PR and pay them well to straighten this mess out...........

To be fair, we don't really know if 100's of orders were cancelled, as there are only a handful here on Pinside who say they have done so. I'm sure their sales have taken a hit, but being as they are the biggest boy on the block in the pinball world right now, it remains to be seen just how big the "mess" really is. For the record, I agree with you that they should have stopped shipping games and come clean with what was happening. The fact they didn't, makes me wonder if this is a lot bigger problem than we know.....meaning, they knew they had an issue for some time but crossed their fingers and kept shoving games out the door. Now those folks are looking at their games and realizing they are ghosting too. If it were just the GBLE, I have to think they would have addressed the issue differently....but then again who knows.

It's as hard as driving to the courthouse. As Vid pointed out a while back, I am sure they have been advised by legal counsel not to discuss it. Once they publicly acknowledge the issue, they open themselves up for all sorts of claims. I'll even bet when they do start addressing the issue, it will be done verbally, and individually. They don't want to write an email or letter that will make it's way to social media. If I make a post that says they are aware and looking into the issue, they are not liable because they cannot control what I post. If they put something in writing, then folks have a lot of ammo. This goes back to what I said before about social media....people posting about the issue brought it to a head with Stern, and are forcing them to correct it. But the same social media will severely hinder any fix, because they are never dealing with one person anymore....they are dealing with dozens.

That is some funny stuff right there! lol

Sometimes, silence is deafening..........

I once outgassed......had to blame it on the dog.

I am going to tend to agree with some of your analysis. I personally talked to 2 other GBLE owners in the last couple of days, one is on Pinside, the other is not. Neither have any issues with their games. One of them said he talked to his distributor within the last week, and they told him they sold over 25 GB games with not one complaint so far. Now I know I have to take his word for that, and it could be the distributor is feeding him bad info, but I really do think some of this is getting blown out of proportion. I have no idea how many games Stern is producing in a week, but they can't stay in business very long with really low numbers. So say they make 150 to 200 games a week......wouldn't it stand to reason there would be a heck of a lot more complaints than there are? Realistically, I've seen a dozen or so with pictures here, and a few folks say they have seen several more in the wild. Even if you triple all of those mentioned, you are looking at less than a week of production. Now that doesn't help those that have ghosting one bit....but I'm betting there are a whole lot more good games out there than bad, and all of this talk of cancelling orders and such is really over the top. Stern has a record of making things right, and this will be no different. As I have said before, this social media is a double-edged sword, and while we are all screaming for them to communicate, that fact we are all collectively :ganging up" here, is exactly why they can't. Not saying we shouldn't be here, just saying it is a reality of the world we live in.

Maybe.....but as I said, I see more claims here than actual pics. And we all know, there is no one here on Pinside that would "perpetuate BS" or blow things out of proportion?

Interesting statement...do you have any way of actually knowing this for sure? Do you really think they would ship a game if they thought it was going to have a playfield issue? I don't think any of the games with Ghosting, left the factory that way. I'm sure they were trying different things, and each time, I am sure they thought they had fixed the issue. They are not going to knowingly ship a potential liability or PR nightmare. It just happened that way...the expense of saying, "shove them out the door and fix them later" would be monumental. Have games gone out with issues, yes.....do we know if they shipped them knowing they were going to have issues, No. There are many games going out that have no issues at all.

Again maybe....but if you are going that route, you also have to recognize that the folks with no issues are likely not coming here to announce that to the world either. They are too busy enjoying their game.

Never said it wasn't happening, and I never said it wasn't an issue. What I am saying, is that there are probably a lot more games without ghosting than there are with the issue. There are very few uniformed or casual buyers of 7K NIB pins, and pinball is a very small community in relation to a lot of other things. I don't buy the argument that most folks don't know, but I suppose there probably is a small percentage of folks that are disconnected from the world, living on an island, and don't know the war is over yet. I just think if this were happening to even half of the games going out the door at Stern, we would have a major revolt going on.....a lot more than what we see right now. The distros would be screaming bloody murder, and we just aren't seeing that. It is either that, or as I said, folks have the ghosting and just don't care.

Nope, not a distributor, and no connection to one, just a guy that likes to fix mechanical things. I do work in the gaming industry in a roundabout way, but it is all computer systems. My company has no current connection to Pinball...one of our subsidiaries did many years ago, but it was before my time here.

And people can cancel what they want. All I am saying is there is a lot of posting of bad playfields, and the sky is falling, Stern is a mess, etc. But few people are posting the good....mostly because we love controversy. As I said, I know it is an issue, and yes, Stern needs to make it right.....but there are a lot of good units being made just the same. Folks are cancelling orders because of all the doom and gloom, and if you really look at it with an objective eye, it isn't all that bad. The sky is not falling, the sun will come up tomorrow, and folks will line up to buy the next Stern title when announced.

My best guess is they will probably do populated playfield swaps or send out a replacement playfield. Neither of which are optimal solutions, but it is all they are going to be able to afford with the number supposedly affected.

I started a thread about recent Sterns with no issues.....but as I said, those folks aren't going to come here and post. I wasn't trying to hijack the "sky is falling" thread. This conversation started as a reply regarding how widespread the problem is. I simply said it may be overblown just a tad. And btw, thanks for proving my point.

And there is no chance the developer would say that so folks would not be constantly hollering for the next code? lol We will have no way of knowing, but I'll bet there is another release somewhere along the line.

Wow.....Nowhere did I mention the topic wasn't worth discussing. I was just adding to the conversation and saying that my opinion was that some of the fears and worries might be a bit exaggerated when you take emotion out of the equation. Sorry for trying to spread any positive or actual reasoning. I will bow out, and you can resume your charge with the pitchfork in hand.....lol

You are right, you don't know me, and I don't know you. My opinion here is worth no more or no less than anyone else's here. I am not an ass, so I won't give the same recommendation I got a few posts above which is not to come here and read it if you don't like it. I'll just say I have my thoughts, and you obviously have yours, and the fact we can express those thoughts is what makes this country and this forum great.

I am fully aware of that, which is why I said "this country and this forum". I was referring to them both being great places we can freely express our opinions. Guess I should have worded it different, but for the life of me I didn't figure that was the part of the statement people would pick on........lol (you can always go to my other posts and see where we have been talking about subscription/advertising fees, and Robin / Brother making a living from the site, etc.)

Air-balls landing while you were gone............lol Gotta laugh or give up and cry...........but I do feel for you and everyone else fighting through this issue.

Possible? Let's just ask Stern....oh wait, that's right, they aren't talking.

So we know that they are monitoring, and hopefully addressing the situation, and I applaud Gary for finally reaching out to someone to ease some of the supposition and conclusion-jumping. Based on your conversation, we know they are concerned with the ghosting and air balls, but given what folks are seeing on the other models like SMVE the air-balls can't be at the root of the problem. They may be accelerating the issue and damage, but I think everyone agrees there has to be something else going on. Did you get any indication they had an idea as to the actual cause of the ghosting? Or are they still trying to figure it out? I realize they probably won't say anything specific, but one would hope they have determined a cause. There are a lot of games still rolling off the line and so far it has been a virtual crap-shoot as to whether or not the playfield is stable. Acknowledging and addressing the issues are a great step to repair their reputation here, but continuing to produce games with the same problem....not so much. I have no indication they are, and I sincerely hope everything rolling out now is good, so I guess time will tell. Even though they will make things right for people, the solution.....no matter what it is....will be a hassle customers should not have to go through in the long-term.

Although we have seen a high number of defective playfields, there are a lot more that are not. So the chances are better than 50/50 that anything he sends out will be fine. Those that are not, will be addressed as they work through them. There is no way they can just shut down production....aside from the expense, he would lose much of his staff, because they need a check. He can't afford to pay them if he is not selling games, and then we run the risk of more issues with new and untrained staff. So you have to keep the lines moving........

Ohhhh, that would be one heck of a handle: "TooLongBall"

Well I know for a fact it isn't 100%, I have a GBLE that is over a month old with no issues, and I personally know of 2 others I can actually lay my hands on in less than an hour. I also saw a SMVE last week and although we tried like hell to find a ghosting insert, we couldn't. If you look at this realistically, given even conservative production numbers, there would be hundreds of folks going nuts on this forum and everywhere else if things were that bad. Gary's statement to KPG that was something along the lines that they have a much higher occurrence than normal, coupled along with other folks I have talked with here and elsewhere, I would say my numbers are probably closer than you think. Stern puts out a lot of different games, and I am sure something is rolling down the line. If it were 100%, then they probably would actually shut down the plant to re-evaluate, because the cost of a fix program in that world would be astronomical. Take some of the emotion out of this and look at it realistically, and I think you will agree...or not, and in that case, we just disagree.

My guess would be that they are worried about the logistics and cost, since there are so many playfields affected....or at least perceived to be affected. Lots of parts out and back in to keep track of, and given they have a lot of $$$ on the line, they want to be the final say in the "evaluation" process. It's probably as good as this will get, and better than just being told to pound sand. Of course it goes without saying, none of this should have happened (on this large a scale) in the first place.

Epic Truth! lol

KPG, I don't know you personally, or know where you live, but I do work less than a mile from Stern. So if you need someone to personally deliver or inspect the playfield before it ships back out, I will me more than happy to help you out. Sometimes having a body waiting at the door, speeds up the process a bit. Especially a guy my size......lol

If a person were buying the playfield, the 5K would be an issue, but in this case, it is not. Of course the populated playfields are not worth 5K, but they are using that figure as a deterrent, so folks don't do as some have suggested, and keep both playfields. As stated, Stern has been burned on this already, which is why everyone else gets to jump over a higher bar. If we are all honest folks, the playfields get returned right away, and no one is charged. No reason to get upset, no reason to be shocked or angered at anything. The 5K is just an imaginary number. If someone isn't honest and does try to keep both playfields....well then, a 5K bill is probably not enough cost.

If there is an issue with the charge, you just dispute it. That is the advantage of using the credit card. While under dispute, they don't charge interest, and it doesn't go against your limit. If you have a valid case, they will reverse the charge.

What angle do you have your playfield set to?

If you slow that video down, it sure looks like the ball is contacting the inside of the ramp as it is coming up through the tunnel. That might be because it is hitting the metal diverter as you suggested, or possibly the feed ramp is not aligned straight. If the diverter or a magnetized ball is not the issue.....Take a look at the ramp entrance where the wire rails feed into the clear plastic and make sure it is feeding the ball straight and down the middle. If it is off just a bit, it will cause the ball to bounce from one side to the other. when you lift the playfield to remove the diverter, you should be able to get a close look at it. Sorry if this has already been suggested...I didn't go back through the old posts.

Cool, glad you figured it out. It was so hard to see from the angle you provided, but it really looked like that ball was bouncing back and forth coming through the subway. If all fixes could be that easy!

Still don't see it on the We came we saw, but you are right about the rest. what a mess.....I had hoped they had figured out the issue. There has to be more than one manufacturer doing these, or they are getting some really inconsistent materials. Some are just great, and others are just crap. Sorry man.

Interesting, KPG only got personal attention after he started making T-shirts and thinking outside the box on this. So long as their exposure is Pinside, I doubt they really care......but as much as I don't want to agree with the tactic of making this more public, it seems to have been the answer in at least one case. KPG....still plan on wearing that shirt to the Expo? lol

I would bet they do nothing or announce anything until after the expo. At this point, they don't want to create any controversy that might impact their party or show presence, so they are going to try very hard to keep everything simmering until their exposure is minimized. The do not want to be embarrassed in their own back yard. it is the only real leverage any of the consumers have outside of not buying their products any longer, and we all know there will always be someone standing in line.

Unfortunately, no. It might add some life or minimize damage, but if clear is separating, the protector is not going to keep it from doing that.

In Seattle as we speak. Kid Rock concert last night and lots of fun in the city. Always a great time here. If he can't have one for you, i will. Lol

To be fair, we don't know what it will take to "convince Stern" of anything. They may just look and say, Yep, it's ghosted, so let's replace it. We really shouldn't start complaining about their program until we know they are actually turning down people with legitimate issues.

Dimples from ball strikes....perfectly normal.

I am betting most of your problem lies with the distributor, rather than Stern. Now I have not been a fan of a lot they have done, but I can tell you I was standing next to a friend who took a call from his distro 2 days ago regarding his pro. He has a couple of minor ghosted inserts, and the distro opened a case with Stern. They took a look at the pics and said it would be taken care of in a month or so. Now I will admit, they did not tell him exactly what they would be doing for him, but they left the distinct impression it would be a new playfield. So what I am trying to say is I think they are really wanting to fix all of this, but they are not being very vocal about it and just handling the cases as they come in. If your distributor is yanking you around, they are either not taking the time to bring the case to Stern, or they don't want the hassle and/or deposit for shipping the playfields back and forth. I would contact Stern directly, and tell them you have gone through your distributor with no results, so the next step is contacting them directly.

I don't disagree with what you said in regards to how the manufacturer has handled things. Stern HAS made a big mess of this from the start, no question. But the problem the distributors and re-sellers have is with Stern, and they should not be hanging the customer out to dry. (if that is indeed what is happening) They take the money and reap a profit, they should be standing up for the customer with stern, no matter how crappy the deal is for them. They can't take the money and run away and then say "fend for yourself" when the going gets tough...it is the risk they take when they sell another person's product. (which is why they are legally responsible). The only way you will see change, is if the true buyers from Stern, which are the Distributors and re-sellers, say they are not going to handle a crappy product any longer. 1 sale is no big deal to them....but having to find a new distributor is costly and time consuming. Only with action like that will you see change......but regardless, the end customer should be taken care of by whomever they wrote the check to.

Don't know about outside of North America, but I don't think there is a "magic number" of ghosted inserts. The one I was referring to had a small ghost on the Tobin insert, and a very very small ghost on the corner of another, and Stern said they would cover it. If you have ghosting, no matter how small, it stands to reason you will have more over time, and I think Stern knows that. I do wish luck to all of you outside the country. I really hope they do the stand-up thing and take care of you all. It's not like you can jump in the car and drive over to the plant.

As said above, go to the CPR website and there is a lot of playfield documentation. You will see the bubbling you mention is perfectly normal. Now if you are getting blisters that chip off, then you are talking a different thing....but bubbling or jeweling is normal.

As I said, go to the CPR website. They have pictures of what can be expected and why. If yours is different, then you may need to address it with your distributor.

Oh good lord. There is so much speculation and "I heard this" and a "friend told me that" in this thread, it would take a master navigator just to figure out where it is going. If you buy a game and don't have ghosting, then it is fixed (at least as far as you are concerned). Have fun and play the crap out of it.

If you have ghosting, then Stern has publicly said they will take care of you. No one has ever said it takes 3 inserts, bla bla bla. So if you buy a game with ghosting...guess what.....do the same as above and just play the crap out of it. Stop trying to figure out who is making the playfields. Just because you heard this manufacturer is superior over another, does not mean your game is going to be fine. ANY game can have an issues, and there are more without than with. If you want to talk about a real subject that we can do something about, lets talk about pricing.

And we all know how well informed the distributors have been. My dad always said to believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. Unless it comes direct from Stern, I would treat it with a grain of salt. Gary is on video saying they are going to take care of the playfield. Now I am by no means a fan of Gary, but I have to believe he meant what he said, else he knows folks will roast him at the stake. Just buy the game and stop worrying so much.

Sure they would. First, that number has been floating around Pinside for months now. I'm sure a lot of distros frequent this board incognito. Second, and most importantly, it gives the buyer something.....some kind of answer to get the customer off his ass for a while.

They know nothing more than the rest of us. If they did, one of them would be posting it to calm the fears so they can sell more games.

Stern has been on record in video and other presentations, where they admitted to the issue and said it would be fixed. With that said, they are not stupid, they know they have to make things right or they would be crucified in court. I believe they do have intentions of fixing the bad PF's, but they probably figure getting new machines out the door is more of a priority right now. In the short-term, these new sales make them money...playfield replacements only cost them. I know, I know...don't piss off the valued customers, or your company will die, etc etc, but they are not thinking that far out. They are getting the backlog of machine orders caught up so they can then pull some of their folks off of the production line to concentrate on the re-builds. They probably figure those with ghosting are already pissed, so they would rather let those folks wait a little longer than to piss off a whole new set of people by delaying their games even more.

Not saying I disagree with you....I'm just guessing at their point of view. Of course they could be in Las Vegas, drunk as hell with a hooker on each arm, laughing at all of us suckers that they can't believe "bought that shit".....lol

I don't think that was as bad as many are making out. Those that have the ghosting issue know it is much much easier to see without backlighting. When you turn on the bulbs, the ghosting is very hard to see. So my guess is he was looking for ghosting, given the current issue. I would be more worried about whether or not he had his glasses on...........lol

Everything in life is a gamble. I could say the same thing about certain car manufacturers. If you are buying from a reputable dealer, then you have to trust they will take care of you. If you don't feel they will do what is right, then you shouldn't be buying from them anyway.....no matter what the quality of the product.

Not sure of your point....Just like a dealer, Stern should take care of the product. Yes, getting service is more difficult, but that is part of the gamble I was referencing. Stern is the only mainstream game in town and we all know that going in. It's not like a bunch of Stern dealerships suddenly closed their doors, and in this informed age there is no reason to not to know all of the potential issues prior to plopping down 8K.

A pinball machine is a toy, plain and simple. It is not something we need to survive, so if you only have one dealer to go to and they don't stand behind their product, then don't buy it. Go buy some other shiny object that has a better company behind it. And before anyone says that route operators depend on them for their livelihood, there are other products out there that make them money. I am sure they don't want to buy a pin and put it on route from a supplier that doesn't support their products. Sure they will "want" a Stern pinball, but if Stern isn't the place to go, then it won't take long for JJ and others to expand and corner the market.

This is what is wrong with the "me" society of today. We want everything to be right, just and fair. The world does not work that way, and we need to accept risk and at least some responsibility for everything we do. Now I am not saying a person should just roll over and let anyone get away with anything....I am just saying we can't complain about "difficulty getting service" when we knew that might be the case going in.

End result if Stern stands behind their product, they will sell them and they will stay in business. If they don't, then eventually they will piss off enough folks to effect change or to put them out of business from lack of sales.

Wow Ice...you and I often agree on a lot of things, but resorting to a personal attack is a bit over the top. I have both, and I love playing both, but I will also admit the BM66 code has a long way to go. Remember, it's only pinball.........

Really looking at this Alien myself. I want to see the folks get a few games on it before making the call, but it may just be my next purchase.

This....is going to be the thing that haunts Stern the most. Once something is on the internet, it lives and breathes, and it never goes away. I have no idea if there actually are Aerosmith playfield issues as I haven't been following those threads, but I am sure someone somewhere is claiming that they do, and a google search is going to throw all of those results out there for everyone to see. Kind of like an accused criminal...he/she may be able to prove beyond a doubt that they are innocent, but Google will keep convicting them over and over for the rest of their lives.

When I asked about mine, they said they purposely destroy them because: 1. They don't want someone re-installing and then claiming another bad playfield 2. The LE's were signed, and they specifically did not want the signed boards out there floating around. Not sure why, other than to keep someone from selling the board for more because of the signature, or maybe trying to make an LE out of a premium??