(Topic ID: 161795)

Hey Stern! Are you serious?

By mayuh

7 years ago


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#59 7 years ago
Quoted from chubtoad13:

Am I the only one that thinks the crack in the R is the best looking insert there? It's cracked, but you can barely see it. That spider arrow looks like crap.

Yeah, the insert crazing is ridiculous. My NIB Met Pro has the same thing on every insert. Apparently it's too much to ask for clearish inserts anymore. They honestly appear cloudy and opaque. The flasher insert in the middle of the pops on my old TAF was clear like a diamond in comparison.

#75 7 years ago
Quoted from hlaj78:

This is why I swore off nib sterns a couple of years ago as well as any other games made by Stern under another manufacturers name.

Yeah I kind of wish I had waited and found a nice used Met Pro instead of going NIB but I didn't even realize that heavily crazed inserts were a thing at the time.

Not to mention the clear starting to chip off the drain hole area within 100 plays, still waiting for a response from the distributor on that.

So yeah, "underwhelmed and disappointed" is not how Stern should want their new customers to feel if they expect them to buy again.

What's needed is another higher-volume competitor that can keep them honest. Maybe Heighway in a few years...

#126 7 years ago
Quoted from SadSack:

I'd happily take that "crap" off his hands. Part of the reason prices are so high is the horrible high cost of warranty. I don't think the playfield is great by any means, but I think people would be surprised to learn the actual quality standards are so far from perfect. This playfield probably exceeded those standards. If you need perfect, there are guys who will sell you perfect... It's not going to be any volume manufacturer for sure.

You'll take it off his hands, but not for the purchase price.

There is nothing acceptable about the clearcoat failure on that playfield. This is not nitpicking. It would be shocking if Stern didn't replace this with another populated playfield in a timely manner.

As for warranty costs, perhaps this bubbling truly occured after it left the factory. Generally speaking fixing this type of mess is far more expensive once it's in the consumer's hands vs. before it leaves the factory. Stern would do well to invest in improved QA if that is what is necessary to avoid this type of thing, or at least reduce it substantially.

I will say that we should all give Stern the benefit of the doubt that they will take care of this and similar issues in a timely manner, but the sooner they provide assurrances to the OP the better to restore confidence in their customer base.

#186 7 years ago
Quoted from someoneelse:

I just don't see any attraction in the 1 minute of pulling a game out of a box, actually it's more of a chore to me.

Well I just bought my first NIB game a few weeks ago, after many years of buying used, routed games and fixing them up.

The best thing about buying NIB is the smell... That "new game" smell is fantastic!

But yeah, the idea of owning NIB is much better than the reality I think... watching the clearcoat chip off the drain hole in the first week (before I realized it needed additional protection day one - thanks Stern!), the ball dimples, etc. is not a good feeling.

I'll probably look for used HUO when buying newer games in the future. But each to their own.

#192 7 years ago
Quoted from PureTO:

What game... What protection around what drain hole? Some actual info would be helpful.

My new Metallica Pro LED. The drain hole on the new Sterns apparently has a design flaw where all the clear chips away almost instantly. I made a thread about it: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/is-my-nib-metallica-pro-playfield-defective

So if you DO decide to buy NIB, plan on adding protection to the drain hole *before* you shoot your first ball. Make sure it extends inside the hole to the wood edge as this gets smashed by the ball. I'm not even sure if simple mylar would be enough to prevent this long term, seems like a metal "cliffy" type protection is warranted really, and this should be applied at the factory IMHO.

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#201 7 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

2,000 plays since I've put Mylar there and it has gotten no worse. I'll take that.

That's reassuring, thx.

How far from the hole does your clearcoat damage extend?

#213 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Pins are a jealous lover.
Every time the wood cools down it shrinks away from the plastics.

...the solution is to never turn it off!

#281 7 years ago
Quoted from SadSack:

Clearly some of you should stick to collecting something other than brand new, coin-operated amusement machines since you refuse to accept the quality level that the devices are manufactured to. Stern has clearly made a decision to reduce the cost by some amount that directly corresponds to the savings resulting by shipping playfields that are more imperfect than you might like. If you don't like it, buy open box or used machines that can be inspected before you write the check.

Wow, some serious Stockholm Syndrome being exhibited here.

Your argument above, that anyone who isn't happy with Stern's faulty manufacturing shouldn't buy NIB from Stern, is pretty much what we're all saying.

What do you think will happen to your precious Stern if they don't take care of their collector customers adequately, preferably by making better products in the first place, and if necessary, with quick resolution of issues such as the OP's? They will be just as out of business, won't they?

The issues being reported are not unsolvable problems (art decals peeling off, seriously?), and it is always way less expensive to produce a product with less defects from the start than to correct issues once the product has been sold.

They need to up their game if they want to compete in the new pinball market with home buyers representing a significant, if not dominate, portion of the market. With luck Heighway, JJP, etc. will continue to provide increasing competitive pressure on Stern to improve things across the board.

#309 7 years ago

I think it's becoming clear that Stern has a *serious* playfield clearcoat adhesion problem on their hands. I don't know if they changed the clearcoat, the production process, or what, but it looks like a whole bunch of recent machines have brittle clear that doesn't adhere properly. There is no way that the clear should be lifting off the shooter lane after so few games (or off my Metallica drain-hole either). Hell, on older machines the clear would gradually wear away with use until you got down to bare wood, not chip off in big chunks at the first sign of a ball impact.

I wonder if this is related to the "Stern Delays..." thread and if they've decided screw it, ship it all and we'll let the customers sort it out?

#326 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

No.
There has been insert ghosting, saucer hole chipping and shooter lane delaminating since 1988.

Vid, so what is your take on the clearcoat issues being reported here with brand new games with very little use?

A manufacturing defect? Seems like Stern has made plenty of games in the last 5 years that didn't ship with these issues and wore much more gracefully.

You've seen it all so I'm interested in if you think these pictures indicate a serious clearcoat issue, and what the longer term prognosis is for playfields with brittle, bubbling clearcoat might be?

#569 7 years ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

And a shooter lane pic.. CC is still hanging in there

You see, this perfectly illustrates the issue:

Picture of the kind of gradual, graceful clearcoat/playfield wear you would expect a pinball machine to exhibit after thousands of plays:
ec45157fe90b80ead5948a251744e66a084754c4_(resized).jpgec45157fe90b80ead5948a251744e66a084754c4_(resized).jpg

Picture of Stern's crap-tastic chippy playfield clearcoat after a few dozen plays:
sternshooterlane_(resized).jpgsternshooterlane_(resized).jpg
That clear will chip off completely in no time if not covered with mylar immediately.

And it's happening on every non-flat surface on the table, drain hole, MET Mystery hole, etc.

Does anyone really still think there's not an issue here??

#583 7 years ago

We've established a pattern of recent Stern playfields that have insert ghosting right out of the box, and rapidly worsening over time.
We've also seen that the quality of their clearcoat is poor, resulting in premature chipping and failure of the clearcoat in areas subject to the most aggressive contact with the ball.

I don't care if it's CCCs problem or someone else's, I want Stern to stand behind their products.

Specifically, IMHO they need to:

a) Acknowledge that these issues are not satisfactory and not within acceptable product specs.

b) Take care of recent customers who have machines that are suffering from these issues by sending out fully-populated replacement playfields, unpopulated playfields, or even replacing/returning entire machines, as required.

c) Take real corrective action to improve their products to avoid these issues leaving the factory in the future.

Buyers need to have confidence that their investment in a NIB Stern pinball won't arrive from the factory with these issues, and that if they do arrive faulty, that Stern will stand behind their machines. I, for one, won't buy another NIB Stern until I see a long-term trend of improvement. Even then, fool me once...

#588 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

You see it on playfields, even before they are installed.

...and then you put those playfields aside and do not ship them to customers.

And if the number of playfields that must be rejected becomes too expensive, you invest in new techniques, materials, or processes to reduce the root causes for the rejects in the first place. It's called "innovation", and it's how companies stay in business.

#642 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I'm not joking - if ghosting truly bothers you, stop buying new games.

Quoted from Fytr:

Wow, some serious Stockholm Syndrome being exhibited here.
Your argument above, that anyone who isn't happy with Stern's faulty manufacturing shouldn't buy NIB from Stern, is pretty much what we're all saying.
What do you think will happen to your precious Stern if they don't take care of their collector customers adequately, preferably by making better products in the first place, and if necessary, with quick resolution of issues such as the OP's? They will be just as out of business, won't they?
The issues being reported are not unsolvable problems (art decals peeling off, seriously?), and it is always way less expensive to produce a product with less defects from the start than to correct issues once the product has been sold.
They need to up their game if they want to compete in the new pinball market with home buyers representing a significant, if not dominate, portion of the market. With luck Heighway, JJP, etc. will continue to provide increasing competitive pressure on Stern to improve things across the board.

Quoted from Fytr:

I'll probably look for used HUO when buying newer games in the future. But each to their own.

Look, shipping new games with obvious defects is not going to cut it with the home buyers - period. They don't care about why the problems happen, that's Stern's problem to solve. You operator types can rant all day about how good it feels buy a new game that's half there out of the box and point to Stern's crappy warranty if you want. The standards have changed for home buyers, and if Stern wants to stay in business they'll need to take care of their customers and meet their expectations, or someone else will.

Case in point, I've been collecting, maintaining, and playing the hell out of old games for over 20 years. My first NIB purchase 3 weeks ago was a disappointment due to Stern's low quality standards. I even waited for several years until the game I wanted was fully ripened (Metallica), but that was no protection from the variances of the Stern production process. At this point I can't see buying a new game from Stern again. Too risky. I'd rather see what I'm getting and pay for what it is worth in it's actual condition than take a chance on what's inside the box.

...and if it upsets you that people paying full price for a NIB game feel like they have a right to voice concerns, and possibly work together to try to force some kind of appropriate response from the vendor, too f*cking bad.

Ball is in Stern's court, let's see how they play it.

#656 7 years ago
Quoted from mayuh:

No emoji, no intonation. No idea how to react
I have/had no mission.
To be totally clear, I don't even want to hurt my distributor.
I want my SMVE. I want to play the shit out of it. I want to mod it. I want the inserts to be the same quality as the are on my ex- RBION. Are any other Stern I saw before GOT.

Bingo! That is it right there.

#670 7 years ago
Quoted from SadSack:

Your points are mostly reasonable, but your definition of "within reason" is not the current standard.

...and we're telling you (and Stern), that the current standard is no longer sufficient for the new marketplace. They can either accept that and adapt, or deny it and we will all suffer for it.

#767 7 years ago
Quoted from Bwilson:

So...I'm wondering if these problems are small isolated incidents... like 1 in 500. Or we talking every 10 machines rolling off the line are going to have these issues...

That is a valid concern because it provides a rough way to calculate your odds of "winning" the Stern NIB lottery.

However, even if this is only affecting a handful of games, the most important factor IMHO is whether or not Stern stands behind their product and replaces these playfields.

If you know your not completely f'd if you draw a loser NIB machine, that changes the equation on how willing you are to take the leap.

#810 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

That is Pinside in a nutshell.
A steaming pile of bitching, disrespectful, menstruating manboys who never grew up.

We spent thousands of dollars on elaborate minature theme parks under glass...

...Of course we're manboys! If we grew up pinball would die overnight!

Seriously though, it's one thing to criticize a thing or a company, and another to initiate attacks on a person.

I don't get the thinking that we "shouldn't be discussing" these issues people are seeing with their NIB games at all. It's basically a public service. If I'm in the market for a product, it's nice to see what other folks have to say about their purchasing experience.

Whether or not a particular issue warrants corrective action from Stern is a matter of opinion. What's just fine to you might not be okay with someone else. It's a matter of degrees. You might be okay with the ghosting that's been shown in this thread, but at some point something would warrant you going back to Stern for remediation. And if you truly think "if it's not in the Stern warranty there is no recourse so don't bother asking", I'm pretty sure most people would reconsider their purchases in the future when they started seeing people getting burned on unsupported products.

AFAIK nobody has definitively posted that Stern wasn't going to take care of them yet, so it's wait and see. Historically, it sounds like they generally do.

#815 7 years ago

That was supposed to be a joke...

#883 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Hell no.
I already get 200 emails every day of people asking questions that are already addressed in one of my guides.
I can't imagine having to do tech support involving Pinsiders and syringes.

Lol!

Well, at least the "problem" users would probably "go away" once they stab themselves and accidently inject 2PAC.

I have to say I often admire your patience on those threads when dealing with folks who have obviously never even tried to read the material prior to asking questions.

I doubt I'd do so well...

13
#901 7 years ago

Judging by the photos presented, it's clear that the weiner inserts shrink the most... Obviously related to exposure to low temperatures at some point.

#1060 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Gary Stern did not say 80% at the last Expo.
I have never been quoted in any newspaper or magazine article without it being full of mis-quotes.
Yes, the writer records the interview on a digital recorder (like a Tascam), but that does not make it any more accurate.
Even if I hand them a "bullet point" sheet with proper numbers or time table on it, there will always be some glaring misquote that my boss will ask if I "really said that".
No one cares.
If you call them out on an important error, they publish a tiny correction in a future edition.
A web-only article will sometimes fix the online edition, but how many people go back and read the same article twice?

I don't disagree with the gist of what you are saying here, I've experienced the same thing myself. However, the follow-up quote re: collectors expecting perfection supports the original 80% number, so I think you're grasping at straws with this Vid.

...face it. Us whiny collectors with microscopes RULE the roost now!

Pinball as a commercial public exhibition will soon be limited to bars and locations that can support league play. League players also expect excellent condition games. In fact, playing league machines is a primary way for collectors to "try out" new games before deciding to purchase. Nobody will want to buy a game if the one on location has serious defects, cosmetic or otherwise, right out of the box.

Nothing wrong with this, just the natural evolution of things. Though, I always wondered why they didn't just add the damned ticket dispensers to the pinball machines so kids would look twice at them in the modern "arcades"? Never seen one that did though.

#1066 7 years ago
Quoted from Jgaltr56:

I have a feeling we won't be seeing any visible inserts in the future. They will all be covered by art. At least that's what I'd do. Why would any manufacturer take the chance?

Well, they might as well. Then you wouldn't have the mega-crazed inserts like I've got on my MET Pro to deal with. Some people like it, I'm not such a huge fan myself.

#1078 7 years ago
Quoted from RJW:

I've haven't met too many competitive players that care at all about the cosmetic condition of games that are played in a league/tournament. Ya, they should play well but no one I know is going to kick up a stink about a beat up cabinet or some clear coat lifting on an insert.

Totally. A good playing game is most important in league play.

I meant more if they see all kinds of issues on new Stern games at their league location (ghosted inserts, chipping cleacoat, etc.), it would give them pause about making a purchase for their home collection.

#1113 7 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

OP, are we ever going to get a fucking update or is this going to be one of those Pinside never ending complaining threads? I'm interested in the outcome but can you please make it more productive? It seems like at this point you just came here for the attention.

...I guess you missed this one from 6 hours ago?

Quoted from mayuh:

I just had a phone call with my distributor: No reaction whatsoever from Stern regarding this issue. BUT: GB LEs are delayed for a few weeks already now. The container waits to be filled and shipped. Most likely the Premiums will be too. Why? No comment from Sterns side.

Well, let's hope (aka. The way I think in my little world) they had a second round of QC because of the reports, saw what happened and are fixing it. This would be just great. I don't mind waiting a month or two or three to get my pin without any major issues. No hurry...

I know it's frustrating waiting to hear what Stern is or isn't going to do about this, imagine if it was your game.

#1127 7 years ago

That looks great. I think we'd all be pretty pleased if our games wore that gracefully.

How does the drain hole look? Did the clear coat stay intact? Got a pic?

#1176 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

It's the whining over nothing...

Lol

To be honest, the only "whining" I see on this thread is coming from those who just have to post their little tantrums complaining about the people sharing legitimate concerns with their new games...

#1297 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

AutomationWeek says:
"
This Hannifin Hydraulic Press came from Gottlieb Co., the most successful pinball company in the U.S. for decades. It is one of two presses owned by the Gottlieb Co., and is believed to be one of four ever built. The press was specifically engineered to prepare pinball playfields for final assembly. Based on a template for each game, the press is used to dimple pilot holes so that assembly workers know precisely where to drill and place components. The Stern family acquired the press, which was built in the 1950s, in 1994, and claims that over 100,000 pinball machines have been built using it. It's current estimated replacement value is $59,000USD
"

...doesn't mention how many worker's hands it has crushed along the way.

1 month later
#3160 7 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

I'm not saying there are no issues, I'm just sick of cry babies. 50% of the people who cry on the boards don't know how or don't have the balls to use a God Damn phone and call Stern to complain. They are happier hearing their whiny voices on a website than actually trying to get something accomplished. Once again, it's no wonder half of your are divorced.

Lol! That was hilarious...

2 weeks later
#3893 7 years ago
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

I am unfortunately not pleased with the gauge and quality of metal, its machine bending, welding, and quality and quantity of screws holding the parts.
I think many can agree in the build quality, when compared with other manufacturers, and previous Sterns.

I recently bought my first Stern NIB as well after owning mostly 80's and 90's Williams games and have the same thoughts and concerns. Working with the Stern mechs and such they seem pretty cheap and lightweight materials everywhere vs. the Williams stuff I'm used to.

But yeah, my Metallica is a blast to play.

I'm sure it will be fine in a HUO scenario, not sure how'd it hold up on location though. Or maybe Williams just overbuilt stuff??

#3896 7 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

In my view Stern looks like a company that's fattening up its books for a sale somewhere in the not too distant future. The cost cutting, price gouging and increasing quality deficit relative to the competition make little sense given how extreme they seem to have become, and certainly aren't sustainable. Only way it makes sense is to maximise profit in very near term, ripening it for a larger sale price.

Not sure who would buy a pinball company... but you can bet that someone's bonus-pay compensation plan is behind a lot of these short-sighted decisions.

#3919 7 years ago
Quoted from EricHadley:

My GB LE after 370 plays, no ghosting that I can see. I must have been lucky, my cabinet is prefect, got matching rails, playfield is nice, all the switches worked right out of the box, etc. Shooter lane is still nice. Not sure why some are so bad and some seem ok, but I'm happy to have what so far seems to be a good one, received it 4 weeks ago.

That's great news!

Nice pics, got one of the drain hole between the flippers? That seems to be the first place where the clearcoat starts to chip lately.

3 months later
14
#5076 7 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

Not to throw wood on the fire but maybe if the QC guy actually was using his light table he would find more issues. Couldn't believe when they walked up to him inspecting a PF and then Jody asked him to turn it on he had to go and plug it in. I would have been so embarrassed if I was Jody but he played it off well. Bet he wasn't super thrilled when that happened on camera.
11:50 on this - » YouTube video

This was shocking to see. I expected the QA guy to flip a switch under the table, or maybe even use a foot pedal to quickly flick between lit and unlit, but he looked like a deer in the headlights when asked to light it up, like he hadn't done that for a good long while. Then he has to walk around the table to plug it in? Are you friggin' kidding me? What kind of process management / continuous improvement system would allow that step to be required to lite the table?

This is f*cked.

It is no coincidence at all that all these ridiculous QA issues have appeared at the precise time when Stern is bragging about producing more games than ever in one month. Short-cuts all around to achieve it, but hey, somebody will get their bonus this year, just not the customers...

2 weeks later
#5146 7 years ago
Quoted from kpg:

Status update of my trashed GBLE playfield:
Was originally told October by Gary Stern himself.. then was told November possibly.. now Patrick Powers latest email he wont give me a time frame and now just says "It has been pushed back".
Awesome.
Stern is giving the run around and might be hoping this shit will die off quietly. NOPE. Not going to happen.
I am considering taking the legal route at this point. I would want to this to help all people affected by this, as it seems no one with a GBLE has had Stern make this right with them. They seem to be more focused on selling and releasing new games, then making it right with customers who already purchased their defective products.
If they think they can pull this shit - then they will learn quickly there are some customers who won't easily disappear, thats for DAMN sure.

Sounds like they either don't have a real fix identified, or like you say would rather just keep pumping out new games to sell instead. Maybe a nice class action lawsuit would be appropriate to get their attention?

(I don't have a horse in this particular race, but it really rubs me the wrong way the sh*t that Stern is pulling recently).

#5323 7 years ago
Quoted from Manic:

Damn. And I thought *I* was cynical.

Actions speak volumes, words are just words.

1 week later
#5485 7 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

http://www.pinballnews.com/learn/churchill/index.html
There were hundreds of playfields at Churchill in October of 2016. How certain are you that your distributor gave you good information?

This was interesting thanks for posting it.

Did anyone else notice the guy running the industrial router without any apparent ear protection? And how about the guy spraying test clear coat without a mask...

1 month later
#5577 7 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

None of my W/B games have ghosting, messed up shooter lanes or chipping at the drain.

Yeah, but they are antiques with thousands of games! You can't expect a brand new pinball machine in 2017 to not chip at the drain in the first 100 games, be reasonable...

#5639 7 years ago

I think that the biggest contributor to the fear, uncertainty, and doubt around the playfield CC issues is Stern's foolish refusal to discuss the problem and alleged "solution" publically. All we know is that they have/had a big problem in 2016, which some claim they have figured out and resolved. But if that is true, then why not explain it to their potential customers to try to rebuild their reputation?

If they *really* don't want to go public with the nature of the problem, then the next smartest thing they could do is slap a 2-year, no-questions-asked warranty on all new playfields. That's the kind of thing that companies do to show they believe in their products to show their customers that they are a safe bet.

The only reason they don't do these things is that they feel they don't need to due to the lack of a high-volume competitor.

So quit sending your hard-earned $$ to Stern and send it to Heighway, Multimorphic, and JJP instead if you want the pinball industry to become stronger, and its customers happier.

#5652 7 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Right but the first part of my question was can I get one now? I can get plenty of Sterns right now if I want to by going to my distro. Alien is finally shipping so that line has to be a long wait? If I ordered a FT how long would it take?
I'm not even mentioning the shipping prices which I wouldn't pay....nor will i mention buying a dutch game

So buy a used game then if you're that impetuous! Saving pinball requires sacrifice!

2 weeks later
#5858 7 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

Well, it's hard not to get excited with such a killer website: http://www.sternarmy.com

They should have called it the "Stern Glee Club"...

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