If your experience is like mine Stern will send you a blank PF in hopes that will make you happy. They know most owners won't go to the ridiculous amount of effort to install it but hope the extra "value" ($$$) of a spare PF will calm you down.

It may offset the price loss when you go to sell the "damaged" machine at least... "I'm including a spare PF with this game for sale".

They SHOULD send you a populated PF and an apology for your trouble but I sure wouldn't count on it. After all you did YOUR part in the deal - you raised 8K to buy their product.

I'm not sure what would "make it right"...? A blank PF really doesn't so only a shipped populated PF would make it right.

I don't want to come off too cynical but I wonder what the odds are of this actually happening? Anybody else ever had a *populated* PF sent to them for a warranty issue?

A hundred just since Pinside has been going? I know I've heard some instances but I just wondered when the last time *recently* they did this.

Companies change - they were fine sending me a new PF ten years ago but just recently a guy here had a fairly serious problem and he said they would NOT send him a new PF. And this was just for a blank... not a populated PF.

So I wonder when was the last time they sent out a populated PF to a customer? Be interesting to hear about a recent specific case.

Yeah I'm glad to hear about these recent cases. Shows that even with *serious* problems the buyer might get a good solution. Maybe I can quit being so cynical

Well that message would have been perfect maybe 10 or 15 years ago but now over 50% of pin sales goes to private collectors. In fact when Gary S finally admitted this I think the percentage was even higher. Anybody have the quote?

Makes sense too as there is virtually NO commercial locations around here... the nation's capitol. I can count on one hand the locations that have more than a pin or two.

So thank goodness for the pampered collector - they truly saved Stern. The biz would have died a while back ago without them.

Did you miss where the last 50 to 100 MMR customers got factory second PF's with light grey ink on the bottom castle inserts? Yeah I'd say Churchill is having some issues overall. I don't care how many years they have been making them.

According to Gary Stern private buyers ARE the main buyers in the market. It took him a while to finally state this publicly and when he did I was surprised at the figure. It was something like 70%. I don't have the quote but somebody else here will have it.
I *could* be wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but I remember this as he was always reluctant in the past to admit the operators were in decline.

The figure makes sense though... there's no more arcades, etc anymore and hardly any pins to be found in the wild whatsoever. Just a few spots to service the small group of true believers.

And saying earlier model pins are better built is hardly "nonsense". I'd say all my 90's WMS are better built than my Sterns... sharp screen printed cabs, plastics that are NOT pixellated like Stern's STILL are, real lighting and flashers in the backbox (not a sad tube), dual wound coils, metal arches with actual art, etc.

I just got a TWD and love the play, rules, sound and lighting but the build components aren't quite there. Plastic arch, cab decals and pixillated plastics. Still solid and impressive and quite reliable though. Sound and lighting have definitely seen improvement over the years... as you would expect with tech advances.

Big improvement from the roller Coaster Tycoon days.

That all sounds convincing and hopeful for pinball. I was just pointing out a Gary Stern quote that surprised me a bit.

You can't go by any "pin guide" for my area either... there's only a couple spots that have more than one or two machines and often none at all as it's been replaced with some hideous redemption gambling device

Well that's the least they can do for an eight thousand dollar purchase. Great for the customer too... get to potentially spend 20 to 30 hrs of work just to get an unchipped example. I don't think most ever bother to put them in - but a good way to shut the customer up.

I thought at first they would do that with the faded insert victims... but instead they shipped about a hundred more machines with 'em.
Sure showed me

I dunno - most of 'em seemed content with taking it on the chin. I guess Churchill/PPS knew their customers better than I did.

The newer games simply hurl the balls far more violently than games in the past - hence you'll see more dimples nicely illuminated by the blinding LEDs. Balls going airborn will do that - even if it's just off a post.

Then again - wood is an organic product (as people love to say over here) and you will see some examples softer than others. Fortunately the overall density is pretty uniform and predictable.

Yeah Churchill's screw ups... CV came like that right out of the box and NGG has a small bit of it too. Both were done in the same time frame and I bought both NIB on closeout so I actually have first hand experience with that issue. I still have both machines too.

Yup. I'm sure you can find some odd examples of many titles but the only ones I currently own that have this issue are CV and NGG. They haven't got any worse but I rarely get to play them. I *did* look over all my other machines once this thread got going however.. it made me nervous

I think what he is saying is that will be the END result after a whole lot of play. The loose clear will eventually chip and crack away from the surface.

Maybe it's like old time football - he plays both sides? More action that way

She does look a little manly in that pic huh?

You said this: Quoted from vid1900:

I've got NOS Williams playfields with ghosting, and they've never been in a machine. They have lived their lives in factory box.
I've had brand new reproduction playfields with it.

THIS is what he wanted to see - brand new PF's that come with this defect. Like some of the recent Stern's. I don't doubt there must be some some out there but when you have to come up with a pic you call the whole thing "nutty".

Put up or shut up dude! (don't be offended - I've just always wanted to say this)

Yet there is no ghosting... so it's A-OK!! Now this machine is in SC? Where was it floating?

I WISH they could get them down to 150 lbs as I'm not getting any younger. That's one reduction I could get behind...

Me thinks you used the wrong word.

Now see I would have gone with "spawned"

I wouldn't worry about "negativity" accusations. If there are issues they need to be brought up... again and again if necessary. This HELPS a company put out a better product and the current pin makers actually seem to listen. So it's win-win for the company and the consumer.
Sure the interwebz acts like a big echo chamber... big deal. Sweeping things under the rug helps nobody in the end.

Look at PPS/Churchill... after screwing the last 50 to 100 customers by knowingly sending them factory second playfields with faded lower inserts... they now seem to be shipping a better product.

Is this because they finally burnt through their flawed inventory or did they finally respond to the daily drumbeat of bad press and warnings to potential new customers? Who knows...??

But the constant "negativity" sure didn't hurt... at all. In fact maybe it made a difference. One can hope

Like I said... a couple years ago GS said 70% of sales went to home buyers. I was surprised by how high the percentage was and also by GS finally stating it. Word was he didn't want to upset the route guys.

Yeah it's all a conspiracy...to... well shit I dunno... lol

Me thinks thou doth protest too much...

That's easy. The "baby boomers" ended up with a LOT more disposable income than the previous generation.

Ooops. But you knew what I meant anyways right ? You're always such a nice fellow. Must be a hoot at parties

Yeah those are just sanding lines from the drum sander that aggressively levels the inserts on the PF before the art is applied. Some show this right away... some look smooth and then the CC shrinks a bit with age and THEN you see the lines... etc...

Would be nice if they used sandpaper with a little less grit or did a separate pass with lighter grit... but we know that won't happen

If the vertical lines continue right over the inserts it's absolutely not the wood grain. It's simply the sanding lines... I have this on several machines. On my LOTR you can see all the inserts share the same fine vertical sanding lines.

If the insert is not affected then it would be the wood.

There was no pic provided so no way to tell which condition was being commented on.

Jeff your problem is this post just makes too much damn sense

It's all gone to hell since they lost L.Christmas in the inspection department

I gotcha. You DO start seeing stuff like that after watching too much porn

I KNEW you'd trot that out!

The extra PF's I have at home (WMS, some Stern's) have "Churchill" printed on the edges. I don't recall seeing that in any of the GB PF pics.
So... hmmmm?

Maybe not so odd. Initially seems well applied then the vibration of gameplay starts the lifting. OR maybe the inserts start moving a bit and it stresses the CC.

A little different than CV. My close-out had it right out of the box but it never got any worse either...my NGG close-out also had just a touch out of the box and both of those were done at around the same time. So Churchill had a bit of an issue for that very small time period.

You're probably fine. I just bought a TWD a couple months ago and there have been no issues. No issues anywhere actually so I've been pretty pleased with it. Stern can indeed make them well... usually.

I seem to remember March but I'm at the beach so I can't check. I will when I get back.

Kaneda you need to set up a new account and then let it sit dormant for a year. Then when you pipe up it would look more natural... like a newbie finding his voice

Instead you just wade right in determined to stir the pot. Need a little more stealth in your approach.

All along the left side. See the sharp edges and irregularities?

Nah - the only pics you'll find of that are machines that are blown out after 100,000 plays. My TSPP and TWD ccoats are good (LOTR not so much) but the best and thickest are still on my WMS machines. They'll differ from machine to machine but the 90's WMS/Bally were generally extremely durable and can still look new today if they haven't haven't been abused continually on location.

I have a NF (not my favorite title) that has such a nice CC that you can close your eyes - run your hand over the PF and not feel almost any of the insert edges. And that's when your actively TRYING to feel the edges.

That's pretty rare on any PF short of a full Bill Davis job.

Don't worry - we'll give you the SAME empathy you showed the other MMr owners that got stuck with defective PF's

I don't get it - what's your point? I've bought from Melissa too but they didn't magically make sure you got lucky with a decent one. And unless you've had such a problem in the past where they have had to send you a complete populated PF then this issue people are having just may not "get resolved". At least not to everybody's satisfaction.

Make sure you send these pics to Stern so they don't think you are another usual dimple complainer. This seems to discount the "airball theory" also as SM is hardly an incredible fling fest.

How 'bout you? Seems simple enough and you'll never see the white spot under your apron... if that turns out to be the case.

Tell him you want to look under the apron - I've had buyer's ask for weirder stuff. Then when you see the mark tell him it's now worth $200 less to you

I guess we'll have to find all five or six of 'em here in the pinball hobby

I have a TWD Prem from March and the PF's been great so far.

We are JUST about to find out. Batten down the hatches!

Well the march date is stamped on the side of the PF. I'll check all the dates again this weekend.

Me too but I've never needed them to send an entire populated PF. I doubt if you have either.

So the usual little fixes Stern and their dists provide don't really apply here.

you must realize they employ a legal counsel and they have undoubtedly been told NOT to make any public announcements regarding any "issues" as this could make them liable for all kinds of actions in the future.

They'll take care of it as they have done in the past - offering some options to each buyer that cares enough to contact them. That's the smart thing for them to do.

As the chatter on social media becomes more positive they'll recoup any lost sales as the same buyers jump right back in again.

But LOTR was a oddity in it's popularity for both home and location buyers... plus that started 10 years ago. Not a good example to represent anything.

Look Gary Stern himself stated (finally) at a show that home buyers are now 70 to 80% of his customers. I found this pretty shocking after his continued lip service to operators even as we all could plainly see pinball in the wild was withering on the vine. Sure I could drive 15 miles to find a place with more than one pin but it's NOTHING like the old days. At least near me.

Can you list there "serious" pin arcades so when I travel I'll know where to look? Thanks

Nice rejoinder counselor...

good luck dude... seriously! I gotta good feeling about it though

Absolutely. They could kick some serious PS ass.

It's fun watching rugby when you don't have a clue to the rules... "let's see - they can throw it, run with it, pass it, kick it... damn near do anything with it"!!

To be fair I only watched a couple minutes but now I'm intrigued

C'mon dude. Too much information!

Yeah I can't believe ANYBODY would risk their hard-earned cash at the moment. The phrase "more money than sense" comes to mind.

Wait until they get things sorted out. By then the urge to buy may have passed and you'll have saved $6700. Win-win

So vid did you ever test under the apron to see if this is water-based clear?

You did let everybody think you bought one after posting those pics so....??

Let's hope Stern doesn't take a cue from the PPS/Churchill playbook. I must be naive but I found that long episode outrageous...

I suspect Stern will make it right in the end - but as others have stated... it won't happen on a timeline anybody will be happy with.

And I think anybody that doesn't want to risk some serious aggravation should cancel any orders right away. This might help Stern get off the ball if they actually hear that there have been a recent spate of cancellations.

You know they'll eventually fix this... and you know GB Premiums will be available for years so what's the hurry? They may release a plastic kit for the airballs (like they did for CV for ball hang ups) and then you'll get the final finished package. Right now this thing screams "rush job" from start to finish.

Met can be pretty clever when he wants to

I didn't just mean the PF... everything seemed rushed and not tested as much as you'd like. Constant air balls, bending wire guide, outlane hopping... a huge lack of call outs to make the game more immersive, etc. It just seemed not quite fully cooked - to me anyways.

I dunno - does your car's CC start to delaminate and fail because it's in a warm garage? Plus the chips on the boards get FAR hotter when running then when turned off in a hot garage.

I found a FT back in the day that had been stored in a shed through freezing winters and blazing summers and had to buy it because it had a perfect unfaded cab (which I knew was pretty rare).

15 years later and it's never had any electrical issues and it turned out to have one of the nicer PF's I've ever seen. So that would seem to discount the theory that a little heat would make the PF fail so spectacularly. Plus all his other pins have always been there and are fine. He did some nice work on TWD's audio for example and during all that time he never mentioned a prob with his pins.

I WISH it was just a "few people" for Stern's sake as they CAN make reliable products. The TWD I have is as nice or nicer than my LOTR or TSPP. Really nice PF on that machine.

Maybe this really IS their first foray into making their own PF's in-house? I know my other Stern's have "Weber Playfield" and "Churchill Cabinet" printed on the sides of the PF's and I have yet to hear of a GB owner seeing a company ID on the side of their PF.

I gotcha but to be fair the Pro really HASN'T had these kind of issues. Just the entire line of LE's seem to be the most affected. I suppose we'll see if it spills over to the Premiums next.

I'm disappointed. I was SURE we'd see a nice vintage Yugo in your garage.

That's the question. Word had it that Stern was going with in-house PF production. And if there are no other companies signature along the edge of the PF (as has been in the past) that may be an indication that this has indeed happened.

But with zero information it's just some some fun conjecture on our part. Well not so fun for the owners caught in the middle of all this.

Stern's been decent in the past about problems so I'm hoping THAT certainly doesn't change. Guess we'll see.

Yeah I'd definitely wait. They'll be making them for a long time.

You wouldn't want to be in KPG's shoes right now... well unless that meant you get to drive his car every day

I'm sorry - I thought you had an LE? This whole thing is getting confusing... actually do you have a company stamp on the edge of your PF? Like "Churchill" ?

I'm interested in who is actually making these things... you wouldn't think it would be such a well-guarded secret.

lol - you guys

Yeah I didn't word that right at all... the problem did start with the Pro's and seemingly accelerated with the LE reports. I also didn't mean to say ALL LE's have the issues. My bad.

Still you have to wonder about the longevity of the PF's that don't show any symptoms yet... will they last as well as the standard Stern PF (which is pretty decent) or will they ghost and flake in a year? Who knows?

I also take all distr "info" with a grain of salt. Back in the day they *always* played dumb if you asked about any issues. Didn't want to slow the sales of any of their current or upcoming stock. Don't know if it's the same way today but it might be.

I loved that guy - good analogy also

Yeah another indication that they might be doing them in-house is that there apparently is no other companies logo printed on the edge of the PF. It used to read "Weber Playfield" "Churchill Cabinet Co" (for Stern) and "Burkel Inc" "Oconto Falls WI" (for WMS).

So maybe teething pains after all...

He should have designed the lanes with a 3 story build like JY. No ball ever jumps those inlanes!

And with Yeti artwork they would have looked fine.

jy_(resized).jpeg

...and ya wonder why nobody asks you to any social functions

Hmm. To quote another thread : "You put on yer big boy pants!"

It's definitely not "normal" behavior. Because of all this attention I just checked the ball drain area on all my machines and I have *nothing* like this chipping happening. My TSPP and LOTR look like new there and my TWD is too new to be an example.

More importantly my 20 year old WMS have very little to no wear in this area either. The worst I can find is on a well-played WW where there is a little fuzzy "rounding" along one edge. Nothing remotely like this chipping and flaking we see now. Heck nobody used to ever even check this area because the balls simply drop in the hole - no damage and no drama.

And if the excuse is because the game flings the balls OVER the flippers to crash back in that area... well then the game is not set up right or there are stand-up targets that need to be bent down, etc...

Yeah you have a good point about hard shots straight down the middle banging into the outhole... only machine I have that does that now and then is TWD and it's too new (4 months) to show any wear there yet.

I'm afraid you're probably right also about Stern not doing anything for shooter lane and the outhole issues ("outhole" just sounds wrong... but "ball drain" sounds even worse) lol

They sadly seem to have bigger issues to deal with right now.

Sure but this is also happening on new Met's and they've been making that game for a while now. Never seemed to be an issue until now.

It may indeed be Stern finally making their own PF's and having growing pains. There doesn't seem to be any other companies logo stamped on the side like before. So... hmmm?

Guess you didn't follow the whole MMR thing. They make mistakes too and then DO NOT offer to fix their issues. I'm hoping Stern doesn't follow this example.

I'm trying to quit ranting about it but a whole bunch of people were shipped factory second PF's with faded insert printing AFTER the company was aware of it and promised a fix. The fix turned out to be be a sheet of plastic to dim your LED's and rather than printing a new batch of PF's they happily made the customer take it on the chin for their mistake. We thought they had "contained" the problem but no... they kept sending out machines with the bad PF's for months. Until they either ran out of the bad product or were shamed into printing more.

The customer ended up with a machine worth less than the earlier buyers and the company didn't have to spend a dime of profit towards printing any new PF's. It was shameful indeed.

Exactly. Why not wait a year (or two)?

But the thread is only 3 months old.

It sure FEELS like it's been 10 months of this though...

They made them with great care 'cuz they didn't want to get BIT! It's that simple

Mine was made in March 2016 and has the best PF I've seen from Stern. After this it seemed like the sh*t hit the fan. Probably not a coincidence that they supposedly started making their PF's in house.

I like this page. "check out this timer you idiots!"

Yeah nobody even knows who makes them. All the reputable companies stamp their name and info on the PF.

Since these have NO company name on them Stern is either trying to make them in-house or has hired an el cheapo operation that agreed to not even put their name on the product.

Burkel Inc in Oconto Falls, WI made PF's for WMS/Bally in the 90's.

But they are a reputable company that put their full info on the side of each PF. So this may not be their work.

So who knows? Since nobody has a verifiable source for any of this stuff I guess it will remain a mystery.

Yeah like MM there is no way to avoid dimples with TH because the pop up toys will hurl the ball into the air and down on the PF.

It's painful to watch your mirror-like PF get beat up but for any modern high-speed type game it's a fact of life. Now some slower games where the ball never gets airborn and there aren't loads of multiballs (like CFTBL) you may not find much dimpling at all.

Well that sucks...especially since Gary even called you and purred into your ear with all the right answers to calm you down.

I assumed you'd be the FIRST guy to get taken care of considering the multiple damaged areas of the PF (and the nice car in your garage ).

Good luck with it... probably not worth the aggravation as you know it will probably work out. FWIW Stern has sent me a blank PF, a huge ramp assembly, etc all gratis so *usually* they are wonderful to deal with.

It's the whole boxed populated deal...if it were just PF's everybody would have them by now as Stern is pretty quick about sending those out (at least was for me in the past).

A blank PF wouldn't make any buyer happy though as they shouldn't have to spend the time, etc to move everything over. That's if they even feel confident they could pull it off with out a hitch.

Just opening and saving them as jpg's in Photoshop will automatically reduce their file size. Plus you can save them at "less quality" (yet pretty much unnoticeable) to make the sizes even smaller.

Good luck. Call Stern on the phone and ask them WHERE to send the pics to. Ask to speak to Chas or Pat... they're nice over the phone and it gets things rolling much quicker than email.

Let's hope it doesn't get any worse. Looks like it can still happen even on later PF's. That's disappointing.

Earlier on I stated the reason they were NOT making a public announcement about it was for legal reasons and exposure. Yet two lawyers over here shot me down and said "that wouldn't matter". Ice and Rob I believe (...they ARE lawyers right? Darn ballbusters )

Of course Gary's remarks matter... nothing like a recorded "confession" of the issue to move things along. See I knew I was right

Sure you can win a case *without* a "confession" but that recorded statement makes it a hell of a lot easier. I was surprised when he made that announcement actually...any lawyer worth his salt would advise his client NOT to make any statements pertaining to something that could become a legal matter.

.

He may have seen the BM66 with the deep dimples and divots in the magnet... but if you are hoping for the wood to possibly dry and harden a bit more I doubt if a month would do it.

Not really sure why his magnet is so beat up already. Maybe they got a batch of them in with a softer alloy somehow.

I never mentioned money... in this case the "win" would be actually getting them to fix the problem. I also think they'll come through eventually but if not... not everybody will quietly roll over.

You are indeed consistent though... so far you have loudly advised against any legal action against Predator, John P and now this issue affecting a 9k game. I don't think they'll get anything back financially either but they seem to enjoy trying to corral Kevin and JP to get their pound of flesh

It's a good thing not everybody thinks like you do or a lot of lawyers would be painting houses right now

I suspect dimpling will be described by Stern as "normal wear" as they have always done in the past. Unless it's really egregious and then they simply send a blank PF to mollify the customer. I've seen that happen quite a few times.

But yeah - I can see a group of customers threatening them with legal action to get them to send populated PF's if they fail to implement their "program". Or whatever they called it. Heck people were already living with the fact that Stern gets to decide if their PF is properly ruined enough for the replacement program. Now the worry is when they'll get around to it. I think they'll take their sweet time.

Well at least this machine looks like it EARNED that damage in the wild. Which used to be the their purpose in life back in the day.

Now if this happened in somebody's living room...well.... then we'd grab the pitchforks

Damn. And I thought *I* was cynical.

1) Certainly did on some GB. Other titles not so much.
2) They have in the past CV had it bad and NGG has a little.
3) Need to call Stern and ask. Churchill used to be proud of the product and clearly stamped their name and info on the side. If they don't do this anymore then nobody truly knows as either nobody has asked Stern or they won't answer the question.

During the entire GB PF drama I never saw a post that said "I called Stern and asked and they said the PF's are made by XXX"
or "I called Stern and asked and they said they couldn't share that info"...etc...

It would be funny if nobody with PF problems had actually called and asked this simple question to Stern.

Even if they wouldn't tell you it would be worth it to hear stern say " Sorry. That's classified!"

My spare TSPP PF has Churchill Cabinet Company stamped right on it along with other info.

Does it really matter though? They are hardly infallible as they produced the faded inserts that a lot of MMr buyers were forced to accept.