This is the worst kind of problem for a manufacturer since it appears to show up after the game is made and shipped, is not something that can be easily fixed, gets progressively worse over time and significantly affects game cosmetics and value if it gets really bad.

Hopefully it was just a bad batch and only a small number of playfields were affected, so Stern can afford to send those owners replacement populated playfields.

I think the usual reasons for bringing a process like playfield manufacturing in house would be to control the supply, the quality or to save money, hopefully all three.

The problems with the current playfields may or may not have anything to do with their move away from CGC.

CGC has been making playfields forever. Still, stuff happens in manufacturing and I expect they'll figure out what's causing the ghosting.

I would be surprised if Stern doesn't run into its own set of problems when they stop using CGC.

I took a very close look at the four games in my game room with clear coat (TZ, CC, LOTR and RFM). Out of the four I saw very minor ghosting on a couple inserts on only one machine, RFM.

I can believe that you've seen ghosting on games from every manufacturer and era with clear coat.

I find it hard to believe that almost every playfield exhibits this issue. Perhaps it's just the ones sent to you for repair have a higher incidence of this.

I don't think I would buy a game if the inserts looked like the one below. Wouldn't the area where the clear is separating from the insert be more prone to damage?

ghosting_(resized).jpg

I'm not so worried about the "potential" for ghosting. I think my 23 year old TZ will be fine if it hasn't shown any problems yet. Not too concerned about the little bit that's on my RFM either. It probably won't get much worse.

I would be very concerned if my 2 week old game showed the amount of ghosting in the previous picture.

Vid, does having a void between the clear and the top of the insert make the clear over that area more prone to damage like chipping or cracking?

The numbers from the Pinside Map don't corroborate your statement:

GOT Pro- Home (102) Location (103)
GOT Pre/LE- Home (216) Location (51)

KISS Pro- Home (102) Location (132)
KISS Pre/LE- Home (149) Location (29)

TWD Pro- Home (210) Location (236)
TWD Pre/LE- Home (319) Location (39)

MET Pro- Home (507) Location (216)
MET Pre/LE- Home (507) Location (58)

AC/DC Pro- Home (167) Location (185)
AC/DC Pre/LE- Home (820) Location (123)

Total: Home (3099) Location (1172)

Not all machines manufactured will be listed on the map but this is a pretty good indicator that Stern should pay attention to home buyers who might care more about things like defective clear coat and decals than operators.

I think the problem most people are having is that the clear coat defects are significantly outside normal production variations (based on past releases) and not easily fixed. There is also the "I don't know how bad it might get" factor.

Just because you say it is "the current standard" doesn't make it so. I would hope this is an aberration that will be corrected.

If Stern's response is that due to one reason or another they can no longer make a clear coat that adheres to the inserts, so ghosting is to be expected moving forward, then it will become the current standard.

We can then, as buyers, decide whether or not to purchase accordingly.

Vid, I have much respect for you and your contributions to pinball but saying that ghosting happens on many (most?) playfields with clear coat just doesn't jive with what most of us have seen with our own eyes.

Unless, you're talking about ghosting at a level that needs a microscope to detect.

I don't doubt your assertion that old playfields sent to you for restoration may have some ghosting. If my older games had ghosting to the extent shown in the photos, I might want to send them to you for restoration too.

However, I think most people would agree it's not normal for new games, especially to this degree.

Can always wait to buy on the used market where you can see what you're getting. Though if people don't buy new, there won't be used.

Probably get a good discount if there's ghosting.

metallica_wear_(resized).jpg

All playfields have the potential for wear, if you're not okay with that, don't buy NIB.

It was the current standard at the time, so the buyer should have just accepted it lest he risk putting Stern out of business.

Edit: (in case the smiley face wan't clear enough)

To be fair, I think he was more interested in seeing pictures of these.

Obi Vid

Playfield_Ghosting_(resized).jpg

Reposting this from earlier in the thread. This also corroborates the huge increase in the home versus operator ownership ratio.

I'm surprised people are shocked by this. Though on the rise a bit now, we've all seen how pinball and other arcade location play has been dwindling for years to the point of almost non-existence.

Yes, but their price skyrocketing helped soften the blow.

Many owners like to turn over their games to play something new. Those games may be a tough sell.

As others have said, ghosting can lead to cracking and/or chipping as the photo from flashinstinct below shows.

GB_cracking.jpg

Hmmm...that's not consistant with the message below sent to distributors from Stern (see bold text).

You have told me that some customers are concerned about dimples in the game playfields.

As noted on the cover of our game manuals, each pinball machine has unique characteristics that make it a one of a kind American made product. Each machine will have variations in appearance resulting from differences in the machine’s particular wood parts, individual silk screened art and mechanical assemblies.

The wood utilized by us and our former competitors for playfields over the last decades has been made to the same specifications, as has the “hardcoat” coating. The routing, sanding, finishing, etc., processes utilized to manufacture playfields over those decades have not changed.

Some dimpling of playfields is to be expected. I have seen this throughout my pinball career. A steel ball is harder than wood and its coating, and the softer materials will always yield. The coating was developed a few decades ago to protect the playfield from the ball wearing through the art to bare wood as was typical in older games. The coating was not developed to prevent dimpling. Although referred to as a “hardcoat”, the coating actually was developed to be flexible enough to flex with the playfield as the wood expands and contracts with changes in the humidity and wood moisture content.

Further, too hard a coating will crack during playfield assembly at the point of part insertion and rollover slot fluting. With the thicker application as desired for collector models, the coating itself will show more dimples, and the desired higher gloss of the coating makes dimples more visible. The layout of some game designs may result in more dimples in a particular area, and the art design of some playfield areas may make dimples more noticeable.

My experience has shown over time the surface will level with game play, reducing dimple visibility.

I refer you to discussions on the Pinside forum. I am attaching addresses for posts relative to a Funhouse and an original Medieval Madness, confirming that playfields will dimple but level with play.
The Pinside posts I refer to can be found at:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/my-funhouse-beauty-queen-has-dimples#post-999911
and
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/playfield-dimple-reality-check
Thank you for bringing your customers’ concern to my attention. Please assure your customers that initial dimpling is normal in pinball and is within our quality parameters.

Best regards,

Gary

P.S. Ghostbusters is ranked #1 pinball in both the August RePlay Magazine poll and the August Playmeter Magazine poll.

Gary Stern
President
Stern Pinball, Inc.

I wouldn't expect this kind of problem to be solved quickly. Doesn't it take a bit of time to cut, apply art, clear and cure a playfield?

First you would have to come up with some hypothesis as to what's causing the problem and a potential solution. Then you would want to run a control batch using the current process to compare to the experimental one. Hopefully ghosting occurs and it's only on the control batch. If not, new hypothesis and try again. Best would be to run multiple experiments at the same time.

I disagree. They have basically said this to people, it has been reported here and the topic is still going strong.

It will not become a nonissue until they solve the problem and know how they are going to take care of customers who are experiencing these issues moving forward. Even then, whether or not it's a nonissue depends on how they take care of the customers.

Just ask Mirco what their using. I'm sure they'd be happy to help.

I could see them shipping out playfields they suspect may have issues down the line if the alternative is shutting down their production line for months while they try to figure out the problem.

As long as the playfield leaves the factory without issues they may be hoping (just like the buyers) that it won't develop any and be willing to deal with the consequences if it does.

The defect is not covered under their warranty so how they deal with it is up to their discretion. It's not like it could leave them open to costly personal injury lawsuits like other defective products.

Do they cover the cost of shipping back to them as well?

Yep, if I lived in Rochester, NY. I know who I wouldn't be buying a game from.

He's one of the more persistent voices of discontent and ....... he owns a McLaren.

This seems like it could be an issue if a lot of playfields are going to be returned, unless they create a new "factory refurbished" tier of games.

I certainly wouldn't want to buy a new game with used parts on it. I also wouldn't want to send my defective playfield in, that had very few games played on it, and get one back with mechs that showed signs of much use.

I think the solution of putting an owner's original mechs back on a new playfield is a fair plan given the situation. Albeit a painful one for all involved.

What about a 1000 plays or 2000 plays? What a nightmare to inspect all the parts and come up with some criteria as to what can be saved and what can be dumped, then store all the used parts in some manageable way.

I still think if they are going to strip the playfields for parts rather than just dump them, their plan is a decent solution. It's something they can probably let a few of their better line workers handle without having to create a whole infrastructure to support.

Yeah, what is that line going through spider man? Is it the edge of a piece of mylar or a crack in the clear? Strange.

Also looks like the bottom edge of the Venom insert is chipped.

68e51b6a6de1bb506d27ce0dd990029b6c0c8bc8.jpg

Has Stern claimed to have discovered the root cause of the problem and fixed it?

If not, I wouldn't pull the trigger.

If so, someone's got to be first to verify the problems are fixed. Do you feel lucky?

He may be right but I don't understand why he would claim the playfield problems were fixed with so little evidence and in such a forceful and abrasive manner. I don't think Stern needs people hoping they fail just to prove him wrong.

Dang, sorry to hear that. Was really hoping they'd resolved that issue.

Are you sure the playfield date was in October?

So thus far, latest confirmed playfield with ghosting inserts is September 22, 2016.

That seems wise. The two main issues, ghosting and chipping, may or may not be related.

Seems best to wait until a good number of people have had their games for at lease a few months.

In my opinion, there is a difference between "complicated rules" and "chess rules". Both types can be deep, but they get their depth in different ways.

For example. LOTR and AC/DC are both well regarded for their depth of code.

LOTR gets its depth through the game progression and variety of regular, mini-wizard, and final wizard modes along with all of their accompanying display and call outs/sound effects.

AC/DC gets its depth through the scoring strategies that accompany its modes and multiballs.

I would say LOTR is in the complicated category and AC/DC is more chess like.

I too prefer LOTR style rules because I enjoy hearing the sound effects/callouts and seeing the images on the display as rewards when things are accomplished in the game. For example, the pitter patter of feet as characters cross the bridge in Fellowship multiball or the Super Jackpot callouts when you beat a multiball mode never gets old to me. You don't even need to look at the screen to know what is happening.

However, I can understand the excitement in AC/DC and risk/reward decisions in the rules, ie. when to cash out the song jackpot, building up the playfield multipliers, etc. I think Lyman excels at making great tournament games.

I would enjoy these "chess" type games a lot more if they added sounds/callouts and display effects to accompany accomplishments instead of just giving you a score.

It's also much harder to learn the intricacies of a game as you play without appropriate sounds and/or display effects (during pauses) to let you know what you've done.

Don't have much time on TWD, may need to revisit it. It seems like code revisions have elevated it.

I was initially underwhelmed by the feel of the playfield, ie. clunky orbit and well walker bash toy, prison doors bash toy that open to reveal a bash toy and ramp that lifts to reveal a ... bash toy.

Hmm...not code or layout but sound for you. That really says something about the power of sound in a game.