This has everything to do with the fact that we all keep paying the prices. Thanks to JJP, who showed that the market would happily open its wallet for $7.5-9K games... why wouldn't Stern keep raising their prices? They'd be fools not to.

As long as we all keep slapping money down, the prices will continue to rise...quality or no quality.

To OP: I think Stern will make this right. I just bought a NIB pin through a US distributor that had two issues (armor ding, head decal ding) and Stern sent replacements right away. No hassle.

Ouch.

Did they give you a new one?

Stern does care. They've always stepped in to help me with NIB games I've bought - no call to distributor...just direct contact.

Does that mean they are perfect? Absolutely not.

You have to consider that Stern is selling a product that will have some amount of error in it. Just like JJP and Spooky. Manufacturing results in some amount of error. It's just a fact of life.

Back in the day, this error was likely overlooked because the machines were immediately thrust into a money earning roll at just about any kind of location you can imagine. Most operators can barely be bothered to replace a light bulb let alone care about a cosmetic issue (and most customers playing a game would never begin to look for errors, even on a new machine).

The home collector adds in a whole new layer to this process. Now, I don't disagree with the OP bring upset... Seems legit... But you have to imagine that Stern must have to deal with some over the top nit picking. It's very hard to tell - over the Internet - (a) how someone approached Stern and (b) what the actual problem was and (c) if the problem is really that bad.

the fact that home buyers are now shelling out $5-9k for new games certainly has changed the game... And manufacturers are really under the spotlight.

Probably a topic for another thread - I agree that there seems to be a movement to care (at least there are vocal operators on the net saying they care)... But I've run into location pinball all over the country in the last several years that's abysmally bad. Florida, VA, MD, NY, Vancouver...

I'd say 60-70% of locations (not total games, but locations) that I've seen have machines that are hurting.

What were the issues?

I bought a NIB TWD a few weeks ago...had a few minor issues (a dinged decal and armor piece with a big scratch on it) ... Stern took care of the problems. Maybe they were small enough that they have no issue helping... curious to know what you were dealing with?

Yeah - shame on a company charging what the market is actually willing to pay.

buying a NIB game is obviously a personal choice, but a ton of fun. Don't think that a few complaints on the 'net equate to 100% "unknown QC, cheaped out quality." I feel bad for the OP... But you must realize that there are more happy customers than disastified customers.

You can find just as many horror stories from folks that got ripped off on deals made on used games. Hell, my last used purchase came from an in-person buy and the seller outright lied about some issues. Secretly handed me his problems with deceit. It's not like being used is 100% safe.

Sad we're reaching a point where players/collectors are being told they're ignorant for spending personal money in a way that (A) makes them happy or (B) they see fit.

Is Stern perfect? Nope.

Have they been pumping out absolutely killer games with great replay value? Yep.

I've seen a lot over my years to know that life is way too short to over analyze what you buy in a hobby like this.

You like it? You can afford it? Then buy it if you want... and enjoy the games.

I agree... it's pretty bad. I'd be mighty upset if I were the OP simply because of the cash involved.

I'm pretty confident that Stern will make it right. Hopefully not wrong about that.

That's a good question. I'm guessing the solution to make it right would be a blank PF...which would require a crap load of work on the owner side.

*edit* read below.

Man. A lot of noise and poor assumptions in this thread.

Not nearly as much noise as the roar of approval from the entirety of MLB nation when Odor unleashed the hit of century.

Can you see it when the machine is on and lights are on?

Vid, any interest in running for president?

Normal and odd?

I had to go and look at my shooter lanes. My WOZ looks like Birch... TWD looks like Maple... ACDC looks like Birch....IM pro looks like maple.

LOL.

Who the hell knows.

We are talking about pinball machines, here... correct?

This reminds me of thread a year or so ago where someone said they wear disposable rubber gloves while they play their pins.

I get the OP's frustration...big money is involved and that causes passions to run high... but you have to remember these games are coin-operated amusement equipment. They are meant to go in locations and earn money. That means being moved around, put in bars, slapped around, picked-up and moved, placed near windows, in hot rooms, cold rooms, near bathrooms, in high traffic areas, and places where kids will stick gum under the cab. They aren't manufactured to be cocooned in bubble wrap and placed in a vault with million dollar works of art.

Buying NIB is a total luxury...100%... it's not a requirement. I'm not suggesting that manufacturing flaws should be acceptable...but, at some point that sum of money that you've plopped down for one of these machines has to be an assumed loss. Life happens.

bothans_(resized).jpg

Has anyone called and talked to Stern? They aren't that hard to get a hold of...

If so, what did they say?

There are way more average buyers and and relaxed collectors in the world... Of course no one wants a junked game... But the collectors that want games because of the gameplay itself are way less concerned about this stuff than collectors that obsess over a chip in clear coat underneath the apron.

Didn't you already cancel it (red DMD thread)?

Since when is this true? I know three collectors - long term and active collectors and players - that do not maintain or repair their own machines. Two rely on friends and another willingly pays for routine service.

Can you post the pictures you sent them, pls? I'm curious

Vid - what game did the new manufacturer start with?

What's with the "us versus them" and "I'm so smart and you newbies exhaust 'us' and make stupid decisions" attitude? Nobody is here to be lectured. It's really off-putting and unnecessary. There are tons of collectors that jumped into this hobby in the last 2 to 15 years that are not only rock solid people but are also very well informed and super sharp.

Your definition of being a "smart shopper" has total tunnel vision. You like to put your money into older games that are in good shape. That's cool and if that's your thing, go for it.

But collecting is not some contest where the person with the best deals wins. What you need to understand is that there are collectors and players out there that do legitimately like modern games, modern rule sets, modern themes AND they are willing to pay to get them into their home to be played. Emphasis on played. Nothing wrong with that... And if they have the available coin to buy them, then so be it. Absolutely nothing wrong with paying modern costs for a NIB. If they want to show some frustrations, they're allowed to. They've earned that right.

I'm open to all opinions and think everyone should do whatever they want... buy old, buy new, buy Ems only, don't buy at all and play location only. I don't care. I was simply pointing out that the tone/attitude is off putting. The guy seems to have a lot of knowledge to share...which is what the community needs. Perhaps losing the sharp edge would help make it palatable.

That's a shame.

1) Nope, no interest in the interview
2) It's just a hobby, no reason for all the doom or gloom... or the my way or the highway approach.

Funny video... people are always so creative with them. Too bad it gives a loser scumbag like Hitler face time...

You are waaaay over thinking this. It's pinball, not the stock market.

People buy Stern because stern has been making absolutely stellar titles in recent years. Some people don't like Stern - that's their choice and they have the freedom to buy/play what they want. Plenty of these buyers can afford to buy NIB - whether it fits in your value system or wallet. Some Stern buyers like to buy NIB because they want to. They aren't just "Stern fanboys who do not know how to change a fuse, only buy games NIB, and have no concept of the industry." (As you stated on your pinside page). Believe it or not, there are buyers that want recently released games in their home. They like them, they like their modern rule sets, they like the themes. Amazingly, many of these buyers also buy older DMDs and classics... Which they love playing. Some of these buyers buy HEP because they value his work and don't mind paying for it.

Also, tons of collectors - new and old - know how to work on their own games and love working on their games.

Plenty of new collectors that have entered the game in the 5 years or so are astutely aware of modern pricing and trends. They understand the market and are still willing to be collectors in it. Many of these collectors love learning and their understanding of the market can be just as sharp as collectors of 10+ yrs.

You absolutely do not to be an operator, former operator, or technician to enter this hobby. If you weren't any of those, your value as a collector, player, or pinball enthusiasts isn't any less than someone that has been an op or tech. In fact, in some cases, ops are so dysfunctional and lacking in their desire and/or interest in keeping a game clean and playing, that games are literally junked and trashed at their locations. There are some ops that know far less about keeping a game operating than many typical collectors.

This notion that the average life span of a pinball collector is 2-3 years is completely unfounded. A statement like that needs some numbers behind it. Not just some stories from resellers that are applied to the greater collecting community at large.

Vid, on the "This Flippin Podcast" I'm 99% sure TaylorVA said that the GBLE unboxed at SFGE didn't have insert ghosting out of the box, but within a day, did.

Does the ghosting start to happen once the ball has impact on the playfield? Or is it environmental factors (humidity? Air temp?)?

Did you contact Stern?

I had an opportunity to play some location pinball across NYC over the past several days... Lots of recent sterns (GB, GOT pro, GOT LE, TWD, Kiss Pro, MET pro)... Not a single bit of ghosting in any inserts... Only hiccup I noticed was some serious playfield wear around the sparky magnet on MET.

What was striking, is how freakin good these games play - minus Kiss (which just isn't my thing).

It's an amazing thing: Sometimes during games AND during attract modes the inserts aren't lit.

Crazy, right??

You know the old adage... if you're worried about the cost of insurance on a Ferrari, then you shouldn't be buying a Ferrari.

I think the same thing applies to NIB pinballs.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with buying one... but be educated about what you're doing and only spend what you're willing to lose. I don't think it has anything to do with making a "smart move," but has everything to do with what your risk/tolerance is within your own (stress: own) budget.

Through the mail?

Maybe someone should try smoke signals next!

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I was just busting your chops )

Played a SMVE and GB pro on location. Both had very small slivers of ghosting on the inserts... Gotta say, what I saw was no big deal and once the ball started flying, the games were so fun... Didn't notice it at all.

I'm sorry dude, but your hollier than thou condescending attitude really has no place in this thread. Nobody needs to be talked to that way...

"Start w______ off again?"

Seriously?

Just as an FYI, new collectors, new players, etc, are not complete idiots... Being new doesn't make them any less relevant or less interested or less smart. They may have entered the hobby in a different decade, they might have wallets more flush with cash, but that doesn't mean they're handicapped in their participation.

You might have some experience, but take a cue from other older collectors and approach people with some class. It will get you way further and actually might benefit the community in a positive way.

Gary Stern has openly talked about the fact his company caters to a large home market, that games have temendous value, and that they can be considered art. And, just as the decades have changed since you bought your first machine, so has the market for manufacturers. And, what's apparent in this thread, so have expectations. Let these folks voice their opinion so it can be heard - Stern does listen and they do read these threads. That is a fact.

Who has called and talked to Chas? That's a good question... Has anyone tried to have a verbal dialog over this?

I largely agree with this...I would have handled it differently from the get go. I've read horror stories about Stern and JJP customer service... but every time I've interacted with either company it has been a very smooth and satisfying experience. It could be that my issues have been simple enough that they were easy for the companies to address...or...it could be that I approached them with a different attitude. Who knows. That's why I asked, earlier, if anyone had taken a few moments to have a phone conversation with Chas or someone at Stern? That takes the guessing out of why there has been silence....and, at the minimum, lays the groundwork for normal interaction.

That being said, it's also good that issues are discussed so buyers can make informed decisions. Agree or not...the information has been posted and others are adding to it. It has happened...seems like it has taken a life of its own. So, where to guide it now?

Good post, though, Manimal (LOL.... nice handle)

Who is your source at Stern? You're making a ton of claims here...

You're saying Stern will help an owner with "legit claims" ... Please specify exactly how Stern defines a "legit claim" and how that fits into this thread. I'm sure Stern customers would like that cleared up... In fact, I think Stern, itself, might be interested in that definition too.

History is cool and a fun part of the hobby, but in no way dictates modern Customer/manufacturer expectations and interactions.

At no time in the history of pinball has every single run of a game been marketed directly to consumers. Ever. It's that way now, though. Times have changed, so has the market. Don't believe it? Just look at Stern's entire marketing strategy.

I think I've heard of him. Isn't his office down the hall and next to Mr. Sheetz?

Actually, it doesn't. While some processes have remained unchanged, levels of expectations have been set - even through the words of the owner of the pinball company in question - in an entirely new market space that has been created and is current being farmed for significant amounts of cash.

Stern is a manufacturing company that is manufacturing directly to satisfy that market. They have change their approach to what they are manufacturing in order to meet new demands.

Much of their manufacturing process has changed - be it the tools used to design games... Choices involved in picking themes... Parts, such as bulbs and board sets... How games are coded (and the expectations of what code will deliver to the end user... Reveal processes and allowing collectors/players to influence game design and art...Pricing... Distributor requirements... And, yes, quality measurements.

You need to down shift and merge with the modern flow...and get over the fact that not every modern day collector wants to (or will) follow your rules or standards for participating in this hobby. You also need to step back and realize that the playing field is changing. History - when delivered respectfully - is awesome. Trying to apply all history to modern circumstances is a fumble.

The industry has changed... Show us a time when pre-production reveals were made to home buyers. Show us a time when manufacturers added or removed playfield features such as toys and art before production based on home customer feedback... Show us a time when the collector/player community were allowed to vote on music present in a game...Show us atime when manufacturers acknowledged code designed with the home user in mind. Show us a time when the industry extended pre-orders to home collectors.

Look at the different levels of games - and price points - being offered in a modern collector oriented market. Show us a time when 90% of games being manufactured have special limited edition models directly marketed to home consumers.

It's all changed in the last 10 years or so... The industry has openly acknowledged a deeply important relationship with home collectors... They've acknowledged that games are a valued collectible.... Gary Stern even uses the word "art".

The industry has changed...what you're witnessing now are more growing pains. Heck, you have a distributor in this thread saying this is a problem that shouldn't be happening. What more evidence do you need?

One thing is for sure: Stern gets an "F-" for how they've handled this so far... No matter what their warranty is. The notion that they've reached out directly to some customers while completely stonewalling others (like the OP) of this thread is really quite shocking, especially considering the amount of cash paying customers have forked over for a product.

I guess I've been lucky with my own dealings with both Stern and JJP customer service... But this entire period of silence by Stern (and how they've exclusively communicated way more with some customers than others) is like a amateur hour at its finest. No way, no how will I purchase another NIB game from them until I watch their solution rollout - along with how distributors act - in its entirety... And read that new NIB owners are satisfy with post ghost-gate games.

Sterns choice to issue distributors a price floor for sales really rubbed me the wrong way... But this whole recent issue is head turning and quite surprising.

What does "covered"'mean in this scenario?

Did your distro tell you exactly what would happen if you have issues?

Why so secretive? Who said it? Much easier to understand what's going on if you reveal what the source is.

I'm curious... Did Gary give you an indication of what a "bad playfield" is? Stern says they'll handle on a case by case basis...this certainly keeps the door open for them to reject a claim.

As a customer that has bought 3 NIB stern machines (no, not currently in on a GB), I'd still be hesitant to buy now. What if you have one insert with Ghosting and Stern says "no" to a swap? That one insert may very well mean nothing when it comes to the longevity of the game... But we all know it dings collectibility value.

Not taking shots at you... Just wondering if you were able to get a sense of Sterns definition of what the problem is.

It's a bit odd to have a program, but the parameters aren't clearly defined. Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

Wow. I won't buy another Stern NIB until this all gets sorted and we understand the scope of their policy. Crazy that they'll fix some, not others... All arbitrary.

I think that's a smart move. Like you say: there will be future opportunities

One unnameable podcast said that an August 24 made LE has ghosting... Not sure if that's valid... But us what's reported

I bought one in May. It's 100% fine

Did he also mention the cannon modes on AC/DC?

There's a big problem with this mess...

How in the world will NIB buyers know which version of a playfield they are getting: Churchill or FUN?

Say you buy a GB Pro next March... what guarantee do you have that the game will ship with a Churchill installed? Based on the fact that Stern has continued manufacturing even though they knew (and we knew) there were problems... what guarantee does a buyer have that Stern isn't stock piling NIB games right now that won't be sold 4 or 5 months down the road?

This whole thing just sucks for those of us that like to buy NIB, simply because Stern hasn't been transparent over an issue that they easily could have used to gain trust and approval over.

If this is true... and Stern is acknowledging that the previous runs had substandard play fields, then they need to notify all customers and offer a remedy. This cloak of secrecy is lame and most certainly shady.

Amazing. So Stern has been pumping out problematic games and they send you that?

"Dear Mr. Johnson, sorry about your warped playfield. Please accept this perfectly sh*ty playfield manufactured during a time that known playfield problems emerged. P.S. - Enjoy the ghosting. -Stern's Epic Marketing Dept."

So, I'm curious... how many folks have gotten replacement playfields that have started ghosting?

.

Seriously.

+1

Gotta love later in that video when he points out the soldering hood so that the workers "don't die fast."

Just read some of the details about the kind of issues people are finding out of the box, and it's painfully obvious that those QC guys aren't giving every game off the line the same treatment. Either that or Stern is telling them that things such as mismatched rails (for example) are ok to pass along.

Just listening to Broken Tokens last couple of episodes (or reading Jeff's details) and it is painfully obvious that video is really misleading

One thing is for sure... this "issue" hasn't been appropriately addressed by Stern. Gomez admitted an issue in the Pinball Magazine special... but the company is avoiding. They have two new games coming and have said absolutely zero about what consumers should expect in terms of service and warranty when it comes to playfield issues that GB owners have experienced.

Buyer beware... and anyone buying going forward should know what they're getting themselves into.

What's even more sad is their overall lack of engagement with their new bread and butter

Dimpling is going to happen regardless... it's not a big deal anyway

I don't think you need to explain yourself further... you're 100% on the mark
.

The point isn't if... the point is crappy communication.

When you have customers paying $5k and up for a toy, you should have great lines of communication with your customers. Period.

Stern gets an F for communication. They wouldn't discuss it... then there some personal phone calls... then there was the "talk to your distributor" line... then there was some open discussion in the press... then they allowed videos in their factory where they trumpeted how amazing their QC is... then there was silence.

All they needed to do was release an official statement on their site with specific instructions. And once customers submitted claims, Stern needed to provide feedback.

It's so simple

Here's a great example of how it should have run.

Onkyo struggled for a year or two with HDMI failure. So, what did they do? They did this:

"As part of our commitment to quality and customer service we have determined that a limited number of Onkyo Brand receivers manufactured between 2009 and 2012 may experience loss of audio or loss of network connection. This malfunction has been traced back to a defective network chip.
We deeply regret any frustration or inconvenience this situation may have caused.
To address the problem and help people who may have an impacted receiver, Onkyo is launching a special Customer Care Program to remedy this issue for those receivers that may be affected by this loss of audio/network connection issue. This program has three steps:
1. Verify if your Onkyo receiver is impacted
2. Decide how you prefer to address the issue
3. Send us your receiver in a prepaid box and label that we will provide at no cost to you
As part of this program we are also extending our standard limited warranty period to cover this issue for affected receivers through December 31, 2018. All other terms, conditions and limitations of the original limited warranty shall continue to apply for the duration of the original standard limited warranty.
Importantly, please note that the loss of audio/network connection issue will not result in harm to any connected components or speakers since the issue is contained to a single element within the affected receivers.
To determine if your receiver is eligible under this Customer Care Program please click here
Loss of Audio/Network Connection Customer Care Program for US and Canada customers
We thank you for your loyalty!
Onkyo again apologizes for any inconvenience this may cause and will provide this repair as expeditiously as possible.
Click here to check the status of your repair."

Guess what... it takes a matter of a few weeks to get the issue resolve.

It's absolutely insane that we are in March 2017, and there are still buyers in the dark wondering what the process is from start to finish.

NIB buyer beware, is all I can say.

More images of SW ghosting showing up on the net...

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Stern Tour photo: Quality Control Department

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Where are you playing the game in RI?

You could say the same thing about uniqueness of playfield layouts...Stern is dipping into the same pool a lot. Not all games...but a lot... are starting to have a cookie-cutter feel. Pretty easy to see why: speed to market.

You get no argument from me

Something tells me we're going to see the same thing with ACDC VE (physically speaking)...

Stern has decided that art and lighting trump game feel and smoothness. Not always the case (Star Trek is a good example of a dialed-in pin)... but more often the case than not.

I've played a pro and premium... the Pro had the ball going airborne non-stop, landing on top of plastics, ricocheting up ramps... it just felt half-assed design-wise... but, also, cheap. No other way to say it... the recent Stern pins have a hollow feel.

It's because Stern doesn't give a Sh*t. If they did, they wouldn't have shipped some dude in Germany a Ghostbusters with (1) ghosting and (2) a playfield with the misspelling on it. Think that happened by accident? NO.

George Gomez publicly said that Stern realizes that the market has shifted from operators to collectors. He talked about how Stern has changed its materials and processes to make products that meet the standards of nit-picky collectors. He admitted that Stern's core buyers are no longer Ops that could care less if a game has a big scratch on the inside black wall... or a misaligned cab decal.

So, what have they done? Well, for starters, the QC out of the factory is clearly not up to snuff. For $5,000 to (what) $15,000 machines to leave with major issues (wrong rails, wrong apron stickers, damaged playfields, mechanically sloppy production, etc) isn't an accident of mass production. It's just poor non-consumer friendly policy. Then there's the cheapening of parts... and just plain laziness on design factors that should have been checked, double-checked, and corrected before mass production.

That's the bad.

The good (for Stern) and what shows they know their customer base has changed, is the fact that they are cranking prices as high as possible. They know their market alright... their own words and price tags prove it. Unfortunately, their games aren't satisfying this notion that they have changed their materials and processes to meet the tough demands of collectors.

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edit:

Sorry about your game experience. Totally unacceptable on any level...and absolutely crazy that they shoved that crap playfield into your game.

People are spending serious coin on these games and Stern knows exactly what's going on. Really troubling.

Greg - I agree with sentiment 1000% percent.

I owned the game for a year. Code was exemplary... but, the playfield is just as you describe. It just didn't ever line up quite right...
it left the factory without physical polish. And the bash toys create this constant rush of a hit followed up by a dribble back down toward the flippers.

Happy to have owned it. Happy to have sold it.

I'm curious about this... when I owned the game I tried it and found Stern's to be better because it directs and leads you through the game. Probably just me, but having characters from the show blurt out various phrases just felt random. It's customized but not customized... a game like ST shows how great real customized voice work can be. These TWD code mods show a lot of user creativity, but the show call outs really miss the mark of feeling in-game appropriate.

Peeling decals.... cracked cabinets... might as well add it all

I just finished reading Stern's "What's Not Covered" Manual that ships with 2017 games...

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Oddly, if the Inspection sticker is peeling, they'll send you a new one!

No one person is a barometer of a company's decisions or lack there of... come on now.

Everyone's decision should be independent of another's - especially when considering comments made by a person sitting at a computer. Everything on Pinside needs a grain (read: pound) of salt.

Frankly, IMO, ghosting is the least of the problems. Just the overall cheapening of machine quality is the biggest issue... everything from the backbox construction to the decals... parts in the game... innovations in design and attention to detail in the execution of design.

Slap high price tags on it... add to the fact that the games really aren't collectible... AND that I can play them on location... and of course Stern's PF issues and their covert-like response.

Really just eliminates any desire for me to to open my wallet and pay for one. Last Stern I bought was TWD and, at the moment, they are off my radar.

Find a collector that knows what they're looking at and take them with you to inspect the game.

And Stern knows this!! They know their customer base has changed. If they are going to crank prices, they'd better crank quality to the Nth degree. Period.