yup key issue is do they know whats wrong!

Thanks very much for the honesty and the update! This is why we love Pinside.

LOL best post on Pinside ever!

Any of this sound familiar at all?? Like I've been saying... Stern will do it on their terms, but they are going to take care of you.. don't sweat the timelines. Like I said the other day, step #1 is getting the assurance they will be handling things.. #2 is getting the details on the replacement and #3 will be the follow through (and wait) on the execution.

I know you've been bothered by the lack of response.. I'd just say its been fueled more by different expectations in responsiveness. Stern is HORRIBLE at being prompt or detailed in their responses.. but they generally get the job done (eventually.. and you may have to claw at them). Now that you've been through some of the lows, and some new highs.. just sit back and prepare for the slow grind. It's going to be quite a journey yet but you get to enjoy your game while you wait and not have to worry about the long term damage.

Focus your anxiety on hoping Stern works out the PF manufacturing snafu entirely before attempting to swap impacted customers

Just WOW! No way should a game made right be that bad so soon. Stern help this guy out!

Keep playing the game and documenting it's condition for all to see including Stern. I'm sure they will do you right in time.

Yeah, and please post more pictures of the playfield (along with the people that are playing).

I think Stern will make this right for people. Ive always heard that they take care of their customers very good if they have problems. I have also heard that Gary Steen is a great guy, thats why I hated to see some people on here bashing them so hard. Stern is making the best pinball machines that has ever been made right now and im glad they're around personally. Did you ask if they have a new playfield manufacturer by any chance? I am assuming that is the case. I think if I was Stern that i'd be trying to make that old relationship work again. The playfields have to be top notch and professionally made, you just can't cut corners there, no way in hell.

I sure am glad you are all reassured by kpg's testament. I don't know kpg, but it seems strange that he is the only one who got a response.. and from Gary no less. He must be pretty influential on the answering machine. What did he do different than the other guys who've been nagging Stern?

He's one of the more persistent voices of discontent and ....... he owns a McLaren.

KPG's playfield photos have been the most shocking on this thread. Maybe that's why Gary called him.

Im not reassured by his statement at all, I always believed that Stern will make this right. At least its a start and something to go on for people who are having problems right? Maybe KPG got the call because his playfield is the worst out of the bunch, maybe its because he is the one making the most noise, maybe Gary wants to drive his car? Who knows, im just glad some communication is finally going on.

Not saying kpg's arnt bad but my insert pics were way worse and the cracking/sinking way more advanced to me anyway. You can argue his were worse but I'm damn sure Gary didn't give me his private cell ph number.

what is shocking to me are the airballs on this game. they are ridiculous, how was this game shipped without being fine tuned to get rid of the crazy airballs??? a few $2.00 plastics would have went a long way to stop a lot of the airballs. I mean this game was tested correct? the inlane/outlane wires don't do anything barely to stop balls from jumping over, if it wasn't for the pinballlife kit I would be pretty frustrated by now.
the pin is a blast but like I said it was 95 percent mechanically completed imho.

I have played alot of games on a pro at the local barcade and I havent seen many air balls, is this a problem on all 3 models or just LE and premiums? I did however have many balls jumping over the inlane/outlane rails and that really sucks and should be fixed. The air balls need fixed also if its a problem. I know my TWD occasionally has some serious air balls as well, it looks like a baseball player knocking one out of the park or something! Issues like those need to be fixed before the first machine ever leaves the factory.

You guys know this is a troll, right? Has ANYONE bought a machine off kanada..I mean J?

Last time I saw Kaneda, he didn't look like this guy. It's legit.

rd

i think the le has more airballs because of the ls ramp design. the balls smash into the glass so hard and i wonder how it doesnt break. btw the wd le airballs off ls ramp are nothing compared to gb le and wd le was another pin that had issues that were not addressed when shipped. stern did put out a plastic kit later on though so i am expecting the same for gb le.
i own both btw.

Do you think Stern is looking into the airball issue and designing a plastic to help like some have on here?

I don't believe the problem is airballs. If it was, why did a chunk of paint/clear crack off a place where there is not airballs?

I too don't believe airballs to be what's causing the insert issue. No airballs hit the PKE inserts and those are ghosting. But aren't airballs bad for a pin in general? Balls slamming into the glass from a shot can't be good and shows of poor design, no?

I have had a decent amount of time on my GB LE now and I can say that yes there are air balls but I also think it is somewhat of a given with the design of the machine. The left ramp is very steep and requires a powerful, accurate shot to clear. Turning down the power to the coils can help but can also can alter the play. You can put plastics all over the machine to help reduce air balls, but I think it is a game that will have air balls-just my opinion. I am learning that GB is a game where you need to slow things down and get control of the ball and choose your shots. It is difficult to just play random and not have air balls.

Star Trek has a lot of airballs too and doesn't have issues with sinking inserts.......

btw not saying the airballs causing the playfield issues. just saying airballs are frequent and bad on MINE and they are very annoying. more so before i installed the inlane/outlane plastics.

So we know that they are monitoring, and hopefully addressing the situation, and I applaud Gary for finally reaching out to someone to ease some of the supposition and conclusion-jumping. Based on your conversation, we know they are concerned with the ghosting and air balls, but given what folks are seeing on the other models like SMVE the air-balls can't be at the root of the problem. They may be accelerating the issue and damage, but I think everyone agrees there has to be something else going on. Did you get any indication they had an idea as to the actual cause of the ghosting? Or are they still trying to figure it out? I realize they probably won't say anything specific, but one would hope they have determined a cause. There are a lot of games still rolling off the line and so far it has been a virtual crap-shoot as to whether or not the playfield is stable. Acknowledging and addressing the issues are a great step to repair their reputation here, but continuing to produce games with the same problem....not so much. I have no indication they are, and I sincerely hope everything rolling out now is good, so I guess time will tell. Even though they will make things right for people, the solution.....no matter what it is....will be a hassle customers should not have to go through in the long-term.

Agreed, mine has a ton of crazy airballs too, I cringe when I see that ball go flying all the way across the playfield. Hopefully there will be an update kit to reduce the airballs. Luckily nothing has been broken yet from the wild ball

Glad to hear Stern will take care of this. Thanks for sharing.

I'm taking it with a grain of salt for now. Actions speak louder than words.

watch this space. er thread.

Another way of saying, "stay tuned."

I will believe it when I see it. History shows they take care of the squeky wheel, but you also need to squeak.

I dont like the whole "Gary you need to call the loudest people to try and shut them up" without actually putting something out in the public.

I say keep squeaking till it is resolved. They are just playing you like a used car salesmen if you cave now without getting something in writing at minimum. Keep in mind there is a reaosn it was a phone call and not an email form Gary with commitment of what will be done.

Work with your distributor, and if they are any good, Stern will take care of you. That's been my anecdotal experience with any issue I have ever had with Stern pins (and there have been a few). I've always been satisfied with their commitment on making it right for me.

This.

After reading KPG's post multiple times, it's clear Stern didn't really commit to anything. It sounds like they are going to pass the problem off onto distributors. Good news is Stern's "Program" will have to materialize soon as they can't ship Premiums before LE customers are happy.

Stern admitting they are aware of the issue is at least comforting. Knowingly shipping product with manufacturing defects changes the narrative in favor of the consumer quite a bit. Ghosting is a good indicator that you have a playfield with a manufacturing defect as well so those with any form of ghosting should document it as soon as it happens.

Does anyone seriously believe Stern will do nothing to rectify the issues people are experiencing? Like, nothing at all, and just tell all these folks thanks for your cash, now go pound sand?

I honestly felt Gary was being pretty sincere that they are setting up some type of program and way for their distributors and dealers to handle these inquiries. It made sense as there is a huge amount of cases for this, and they most likely can't handle case-by-case issues on their own right now.. they are simply not staffed for that situation I'd assume.

After speaking with him, it really sounded like they have just been trying to figure out how they are going to efficiently deal with this situation. He also said I should hear more information within a couple of days, and if not- to call his cell to discuss.

Also note he mentioned my playfield was in a "special" category due to it actually chipping, especially in multiple areas.

I would also say he personally responded to me because of my detailed postings and "level of degradation" of my playfield, and carefully worded, but firm and to the point emails. They say the squeaky wheel gets the grease, but typically when my wheel squeaks, it's louder and more annoying of a squeak then other wheels, so it gets the grease first.

Honestly, I'm going to keep pressing them on this not for just the benefit of myself- but for the entire pinball community who has been affected. I truly say I am also doing this for all of us and not only myself. I could tell similar stories of other situations where I got similar results, some of the stories most people wouldn't ever believe here so I won't bother posting.

Fact is, I want to see all of this end well for all those affected as these are not cheap toys, but rather luxury toys that we hold a high standard to because they cost thousands of dollars.

I'm confident in a positive end result.

I believe it's a possibility and I sure hope that doesn't happen. Like I said, I won't believe anything until they take action. A phone call from Gary Stern does nothing to make me feel better about the issue.

This is how they have dealt with every widespread issue ... work with your distributor, they work with Stern.

Thanks for this. Though, I am pretty sure even if you didn't, Stern would make it right for those affected. Of course, as long as they are talking with their distributors.

I have been from the start, though it appears I may be more patient than most.

What evidence would you have to support this?

People can't let go of the time and communications points. So it doesn't matter to them what the end game is... They want answers NOW and will be upset those expectations are still not being met.

I do think in the long run there is still room for some buyers to be left out. There will likely be a minimum threshold of damage for them to swap the pf. Some people inevitably will be below that standard and will think they deserve more.

Yup. Like any company would do, try to minimize the loss.

If your issue is outside of the stated warranty, I would not expect them to help you.

When I asked for the service fixes for my LOTR machine troubles, Stern was charging for the repair kits, because my game was outside of warranty. I purchased the game brand new, and the issues developed after some time (my home use is less plays then a location)

ref: http://www.sternpinball.com/games/213/the-lord-of-the-rings
- Service bulletin 154 post repair kit
- Service bulletin 146 Balrog LEDs kit

So, while some people are opening up their boxes and finding the issue right away, they have a chance of recovery.

Good luck after your warranty period is over.

I have heard of people being told by their distributor that sterns reply is ghosting is "within normal range". It appears this was the early reply, and now they may be changing their story, but I still in the "I'll believes it when I sees it" camp.

Stern has been great to me and others with games completely out of warranty.

I don't see your point. Nothing is covered after the warranty is over. Pinball, cars, TVs, phones. Nothing. When your warranty expires, you pay. That's how the world works my friend.

If one insert had a tiny bit of ghosting, and never got any worse, I wouldn't expect Stern to do anything for you.

First of all, I'm 100% happy with my decision to keep my GBLE and i love my TWDLE and hope to buy more great Stern pins in the future.

I figure their strategy Hilton, like it always has been, is to just mistakenly deal with this issue on a case by case basis.

They obviously care about perception, as they take down any negative posts or comments on their social media immediately. What must they think about some of these comments?

They feel that if they don't make a general statement that most people out there won't even realize there is a problem and thus minimize the $$ damages associated with a fix. What about all of the lost/postponed sales from the masses that do know?

This time, however, the issue is too widespread and has gotten out of control and its not just Pinside.

This time, there are other options for people to consider spending their pinball $$$ on.

This time, they should have addressed this issue immediately with a simple general statement and reassurances like the conversation Gary had with KPG.

This time, a NIB LE costs $8k and some people have the perception, and maybe the reality, that the consumer is getting higher costs and lower quality, and deafening, unsettling silence when something MAJOR goes wrong is not good for "business". But hey, its their "business" to conduct any way they want.

Next time, it might be time for Stern to come up with a better "game plan" to deal with issues more effectively and efficiently. The old way of doing "business" ain't working. You can't take a year to figure it out and make it right anymore. Too many other options!

While all this gets worked out I'm having a ton of fun with my GBLE, but NEXT TIME, how all of this has been handled might affect my decision on how to spend my pinball $$$, I gotta believe Stern pinball cares about that? No?

I believe part of the problem is airballs on LE specifically. For some reason the 2X and 3X targets on either side of the left ramp. I am really suprised that they did put a plastic over the ramp enterance, like TWD. I have a chip in the clear that happened (on day 3) next to the Scolari target and I believe it was from an airball.

This appears to a much bigger problem than they are normally dealing with after a game ships, such as ball hangups, both on the type of problem and the number of games impacted. No doubt they need a 'program' to figure out how to deal with all of this and of course, sending out playfield to end users to do swaps is not going to fly, this is not going to be easy, or cheap, for them to deal with. Certainly seems the change in playfield manufacturers is a big factor and I'm sure that is part of the holdup, does no good to start swapping playfields, regardless of who is doing the work, if they have not yet resolved the issue with manufacturing the playfields.

Owners want to know this is going to be taken care of, once they know it will, they will be far more patient (and can enjoy their games without being pissed off every time they look down and see ghosting). The lack of communication, until this latest bit of info (which needs to be more official and broadly communicated), is a big factor around why this is such a hot and emotional topic.

No it's a sign of great design.

Comet was the first game designed so the ball would violently hit the glass, surprising players still to this day.

Comet made insane money on route, and thus Williams sold 8,000 of them.

Whitewater was another game where the ball regularly hits the glass. It added to the reward of hitting the longest (at the time) ramp in pinball.

Williams sold 7,000 of those.