its defective, why wont the distro accept it back.

he sold a defective product. isnt that contravening consumer laws?/and rights.

I bagged out, will wait until this is fixed!
If it doesn't get fixed, then it's Sterns loss.

Someone's here gotta be a lawyer to shed some light on this......

Let's say they send a new playfield...then what? They send out a tech to do the swap? There's way too much work to be done in that case.

It's time to boycott Stern until they take care of everybody. We need to for a pinside "union".

Hi All,
It is apparent that he purchased the pinball from the wrong dealer. If he had purchased his pinball from me or a number of other dealers who are reputable, he would be happy right now and chirping like a bird. As I stated in my post. Find a dealer who stands behind what they sell with a written warrantee. We give a full year on all new Pinballs. We also assemble the pinball before we deliver it. I would never knowingly deliver a pinball with such issues and would correct them quickly if I did. These purchases represent a major life purchase. Regardless of you social status, this is a major investment and needs to be right. ASK before you buy. Ask what happens if something goes wrong. What is your written warrantee? To blame Stern is wrong. They have no idea what happened to the pinball after it left the factory. You purchased it from the dealer. They are the one you need to get relief from. He in turn needs to go to Stern but that should never involve the customer. I hate seeing this stuff as it effects the business as a whole. I hope it doesn't turn off sales. Stern makes wonderful and fun pinball machines. You need to find the right dealer to make the experience a positive one.

Thanks - Jerry
(Pinball Alley)

That really is pathetic what is happening to KPG.

Even if Stern isn't responding to Trent by email why can't he pick up the phone and call them? It's just a circle jerk right now.

The silence from the manufacturer is very disturbing considering how widespread this problem seems to be.

The fact that they keep shipping known defects without a stated resolution if your pin has a problem is total BS!

It's PF's this time, what will it be next time?

Saying and doing nothing just means to me they don't care about our business.

That better change quickly.

And if Stern said tomorrow "Star War LE $10K only 200 being made!" guess how many scabs will cross the picket line. I'd guess 200 within 48 hours.

Holy crap. Poor KPG's situation is a new low. I've restored two playfields with Varathane - which is a "Thou shalt never use unless forsaken of other options" Vid Commandment. What can I say other than I honestly had no other options. And yet! I, a complete newbie using household finishing products, somehow produced re-worked playfields that have held up better than these brand-new factory-produced ones. One of my Varathane jobs is up to over 2,500 plays in 21 months; the other has several hundred and is actually a Firepower with a Varathane topcoat over months-cured Spraymax2K clear (long story there). My Firepower's fast and brutal gameplay would SHRED a poor quality finish, and yet it remains fine!

While there is a little wear in places you might typically expect, neither one is chipping or ghosting and again, that's after thousands of plays across many months. And I'm a newbie, I'm sure pro restorers would have even better results. I maintain my games, but probably not as religiously as some of the zealots plunking down for LE's.

There HAS to be a serious yet unintentional foul-up in Stern's process. These new coatings aren't even favorably comparable to what skilled folks can apply themselves at home. Stern HAS to respond to address this - they simply have no other choice.

Anyone who appreciates complex machinery and processes understands that hey, sometimes accidental field R&D happens. With so many vectors involved in the assembly of a pinball machine, a solution may not be easy or quick. We can all understand that even if we don't like it.

But it's 2016. Stern HAS to quit playing the fiddle in front of the fire, and say something. There is no excuse. Even a "Yeah, we see it... we acknowledge the problem, and we don't know precisely why it's happening yet... but it is unacceptable and we are trying to figure out the cause so we can come up with a solution... please bear with us... we'll try to rectify and compensate field issues and affected customers once we're confident the source issue has been addressed, but this will take some time... Meanwhile please ____" I'm not a very "PR"ish person but that wasn't so hard. It even sounds reasonable and official without being totally legally binding. Yes, some will still complain. But many more will not.

I myself was excited to take a tour while the LEs were rolling and had begun the adventure of saving and fix-flipping to fund a GB, but I'll going to sit out until they respond they are planning to address the issue.

I get what you are saying Jerry, but you are incorrect on this one. They absolutely know what is going to happen with these PF's when they leave the factory.

It's 100% the fault of Stern, the manufacturer. That's who i want my warranty and guarantee from.

The distributor, and no offense to you personally, can be here today and gone tomorrow and you aren't signing personal guarantees.

Trent has been known as a "reputable" dealer for quite some time now and i don't think that is the issue.

It requires cooperation with manufacturer and the distributor to rectify an issue like this.

This is why Stern will resist going direct to consumer and calling these consumer goods. In part, the consumer protection laws don't apply to commercial equipment.

Your recent PF chipping is actually GOOD news. It means the playfield has failed in ways that are not just cosmetic and in a catastrophic way that you don't have to argue about 'what will happen in the future'. This is the kind of failure that Stern can't dance around.

As I keep telling you... you need to understand how Stern operates. Proactive, transparent, rapid... none of these words are in the lexicon. This goes all the way back to when you all were freaking out about when games would be made, details released, 'wheres the LE video', etc etc etc. This is all the same when it comes to how Stern handles information flow. You all want it to be like a modern, public facing etailer... they aren't. Don't get worked up because its been 24hrs and no response, etc.. or why haven't they posted a statement, etc. They won't. Just come to terms with that. Take a breath.. stop getting flustered over that.. and just look to your actual product resolution.

While they are none of those modern, etailers, they generally do make things whole for customers who have clear defects and who work with them in a reasonable (to their standard) way. Dime sized PF chunk coming off in the first week? They are going to replace your PF - no doubt.

The challenge is you need to work through their wonkyness and timelines. It's not going to be turnkey, rainbows, and unicorns. They make it difficult when they play hot potato without being clear on which types of cases should be handled directly by the customer talking to support, or what needs to be parts orders/rmas through the distributor.

Your email escalations are the right path.. make the point you and your distributor need clarity on what Stern's expected path is to handle this. Don't freak out over timelines... push to say 'what is the process you want us to follow' in detail. Be clear that chunks of the playfield coming up are not blemishes or acceptable variances and that you expect the PF to be replaced. Then address that you are aware of the larger problem of PF issues and that neither party wants to repeat this process, so lets get the manufacturing issues resolved THEN get a new PF. Don't try to demand an explaintation of the background, why, etc... leave their business to them.. and just focus on getting an acceptable replacement. Be clear that if Stern doesn't want to handle this directly through their own support, but through the distribution channel, please provide Trent with the details they want. Push to have some sort of case or ticket number that can be used to reference the case and timelines in the future.

I have ZERO doubt Stern is going to replace your playfield.. but as I said the other week, curb your expectations in terms of response timeframes, how long the whole thing is going to take, and the level of detail you are going to get. Your step #1 is getting assurances they will replace the PF. Step #2 is get an estimate of timeframe (this is going to be LOOSE) and Step #3 will be following up to track that till it happens. Your replacement is going to hang off the end of production schedules... be ready for that.

On the whole communication and handling things, this is another area where your buying source comes into play. If you want consumer-like experience, buy from a local retailer. If you want the best price and low frills... you buy wholesale from a remote distributor. But its hard to get both the high-touch support and lowest price in the same purchase.

As much as Trent is a nice guy, if you have a game on order with him- sadly, I suggest you cancel and protect yourself.

Trent stated Stern will not ackowledge these problems, and he certainly has not offered any resolution to me outside of contacting Stern, so he doesn't really have any pull there or probably willing to go any extra miles for customers. Not trying to badmouth Trent here, just stating my experience.

If you have a game on order through another distributor, get something in WRITING about them accepting a return, with shipping at their cost. You have a +/-60% chance of this happening from what I have read here online, and what some distributors have told me when inquiring.

The guy above who owns Pinball Alley might be able to protect you in this situation- but even he may lose money or be ignored by Stern too, which I feel horrible about because Stern is clearly hurting the businesses of their own resellers at this point- and they don't seem to care one bit. I know Trent has voiced some serious criticism about Stern to me and I won't get into details, but he's not happy either.

Crappy all around. Stern has been in business for 30 years and they are treating customers like they are some Kickstarter backed new company shipping products with quality that is worse then most Made in China products. Even the Chinese could probably clear coat a playfield better then this.

I can't recommend any answer that isn't easy for Stern.
Personally, here is my solution.

Announce a page for all owners to register their game and send pics of issues.

By manufacture date, send a populated playfield we pay for but get refunded with the postage paid box return to prevent fraud.

Include a shooter rod or blades or discount off of proton beams with an apology.

Set up videos and help to swap.

Say 300 games are affected. At a loss of
$400 each.

Or the customer can receive an unpopulated playfield, period.

For stable, but small ghosting, a playfield and Or insert decals could solve.

Sadly, there's a cost to all but I hope they announce soon that they will have answers.

They may not at this time know the answer,
but the longer they wait..

I love Stern, and everyone I have ever met with the company has been exceptional, including support.

But how could anyone not wait some time before purchasing a premium until this is addressed?

Well then we should have something to do about that. Black list from the community, if you must.

Alright dude, we aren't paying retail and we like to unbox our pins. 5k shipped to my door and a year guaranteed and we have a deal

announce Star Wars LE and memories will fade

True...sadly.

Any announcement and the last 8 weeks of issues will quiet down.

But they better be good.....

They may not at this time know the answer,
but the longer they wait..

let me finish that sentence for you....."the dumber seem to be and more sales drop off the books".

What may have worked for them in the past isn't going to work this time. The problem is too widespread. Not addressing it in way that would allow affected consumers to express their concerns and get feedback is really STUPID on their part.

Gonna buy a Batman VE? Nope. Anything else they make in the future, without providing a stated solution? Nope.

The old way of doing things is over for them, maybe they just don't realize it yet. Every day that goes by it should become clearer for them.

Try launching another pin right now. How many premium sales lost will it take?

I hear the next one is a Ford Escort pin

They can't make it on LE sales alone! Who is going to buy a pro or premium if these problems continue without a solution?

Star Wars, Ghostbusters, and TMNT have always been the themes I have listed wanted. I got Ghostbusters and it's been amazing, aside from the playfield problems. These problems are unacceptable.

Stern could announce either Star Wars or TMNT later today with the most incredible art and layouts we've ever seen and I wouldn't preorder. No more preorders until I know these problems aren't only fully fixed in the manufacturing process, but also that they made good with customers who like got burned.

By continuing to deliver PF's that have these problems they seem to be tacitly saying that the "ghosting issues" are an acceptable cosmetic defect to them.

A lot of people won't buy a pin from them until they define exactly what is acceptable to them and what we as consumers should expect.

I don't know what to make of this coming from you. Considering your recent "I am getting a GB even with all these problems documented" posts.

Stern must really be doing poorly if you are turning on them.

I am not "the law" here but I was going to respond to your first and decided to let it slide.

Two tips:
- try not to blame the victims for "buying from the wrong dealer". Maybe the manufacturer should stand behind their product, and have authorized dealers that do the same?
AND
- write in paragraphs!

AND... its warranty not "warrantee" at least where I am from. It does not fill someone with confidence that they will have a legit warranty when the seller cannot spell it.

No.
"Individual cases for resolvement."

That is the way it is corrected.
A distributor is not the sword and shield, they are an additional supporters to illuminate. However, they generally have sway based on volume sales. But as people have tried to tell me these days, "times have changed". Stern opinion of direction should be noted. This means ownership requires even more dilligence and education, which respectfully was reported, but arguments commenced.

Private owners have to act in terms of the same mentality as operators to get things corrected now, or they get butt #!@$ed due to lack of experience.

Why?

The market has changed, but the industry has not yet. People disagree with me, but the reports of the contrary keep right on rolling.

I don't know what the resolution is, but I am Pissed!! And I didn't even buy a game with faulty issues. This is just a bad situation all around no matter how you look at it.

No I knew what i was getting into with the GBLE. I did it with the idea that Stern would fix any issues that arise like they have in the past.

I'm still expecting them to do that and i'm happy with my GBLE and prior Sterns. But not responding to KPG and others is not good.

I still want to know what is acceptable to Stern when it comes to purchasing a pinball machine from them. If "ghosting inserts" are ok then i probably won't purchase another pinball machine from them. Plenty of other options available.

Silence isn't going to cut it this time. "See something, say something".

Really shows the risk these pinball companies are engaged in where one-two titles could make or break a company. Even for an established industry-tentpole like Stern. Stern's risk and liability seems incredible here and the little guys (Distributors and Suppliers) probably aren't equipped to take a hit like this.

It is going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

Staying w/ my GB Premium order b/c I really don't see Stern furthering their liability exposure by willfully and knowingly shipping compromised playfields to a distribution that is probably 4x-6x larger than the LE run.

If they do, then they just add all of us GB Premium buyers left to the already sizable and growing angry mob.

I hope that those of you already affected by this get a satisfying solution that doesn't kill their business or supply chain.

For their own sake I hope Stern stops stepping on their own junk like this or we can hang up any talk of a Star Wars pin (or whatever) - they won't be around to do it.

Retailers and Distributors can't take a hit on a $500+ populated playfield return. Don't let anyone snowball you on that. They are only going to be replaced through Stern's doing.

Warranty/returns are facilitated through the manufacturer... just retailers have a relationship that allows them to up-front the return, and then get their money back from the manufacturer after the fact... or smaller items they can eat in margins. But no pinball sale point has those kinds of margins to just eat PFs on their own accord (well.. maybe some selling at MSRP)

The quality of customer service is going to be in how the seller fronts the communications and chases on your behalf.

It will take some time, but much like the Metallica and ST run of playfields that were hosed... the customers were made right.

Stern won't kill the golden goose. They may try to see how far they can string it out and cut corners to minimize their loss... but they won't kill their LE NIB home buyer market. They are cheap... not stupid.

This sucks. I am seriously considering restructuring my planned Premium purchase in Oct to 2 older games based on these issues.

I can absolutely handle common NIB issues, but clearcoat flying off in chunks is not one of them. Fingers crossed Stern has a good solution.

Based on KPG's experience w/Stern & Trent it appears the "new way" to buy machines is...

A. Buy a discount price HUO with defects

B. Buy a marked up price HUO without defects

C. Buy NIB & later sell it as A or B later on

If Stent dosent make things right they are a bunch of C's and I don't mean option C

i'm not buying a new GB (LE, Prem or Pro) because of all these playfield problems. I almost (i mean, like minutes away) order 1. But, no way now. I'll buy a used & damaged one a year from now for 1/2 the price

I know I'm late to the party (100+replies), but this statement has caused me to lose a lot of respect for you and your opinions. NO ONE deserves to receive defective products. A person is owed what they paid for - a defect-free product, period. Delaminating clearcoat is a defect. It has been shown to lead to premature playfield wear. That little bit of warranty law I've posted in the past should be sufficient to get a replacement playfield.

GB has caused me to have a lot of premature related problems !

I think they are in the process of killing their LE NIB market as we speak and a lot of future sales as well. Well maybe killing it is not the correct term but they are definitely taking some hits to overall sales. Ask KPG or others on here with problems if they are going to buy another LE NIB soon. Stern's distributors (All of them) represent Stern. Trent telling KPG to contact Stern directly is a piss poor representation of Stern the company itself IMO. Stern not answering distributors or customers themselves on this issue is arrogant and ridiculous. Stern by now knows they have an issue with these playfields and it didn't start with GBLE, look at the GOT issues and the SMVE issues or even the GB pros. I think that Stern will satisfy most of these customer issues but the way they are going about it (old school ways) does not seem to bode well for the current market conditions and there current customers. They need to wake up, communicate (one on one if they so choose), make the customers whole to the best of their ability that makes sense and keep their personal pinball resurgence growing. I hope they do just that. I am a fan of their current games as I think they are designed well and are some of the most FUN in a box games around. I want more of them made.

Ice should have one for you

Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk

yeah, i suspect he'll be tired of it in a few months. easy drive to san antonio

The idea of Stern sending an unpopulated playfield for the consumer to swap out is absurd to me. I have owned pinball machines for about 3-4 years (all of them being Sterns) and i don't feel confident I could swap a play field out 100% without issues. I also don't have the time. I think Ghostbusters is an amazing game and really wanted to buy a premium, but with no communication coming from Stern I am not taking a gamble on it. I bought a HUO WOZ instead and am interested in what JJP has to offer next along with the reveal of Alien.

This is exactly what I want in a dealer. I can handle most assembly defects and tweaks no problem, and indeed just about every Stern I've bought has needed some work after initial set up. Everything from tightening screws to reinstalling ICs to making custom replacement wiring harnesses. Problem here is the playfields are *unfixable*. This is a true manufacturers defect that cannot be fixed by the end user, and the only proper solution is a replacement playfield.

I realize you're trying to promote your B&M business model, but this has absolutely nothing to do with brick and mortar shops or the level of post-sale service from a distributor. This is basic contract law. See https://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-314 - section D: "run, within the variations permitted by the agreement, of even kind, quality and quantity within each unit and among all units involved" Stern (and JJP and Heighway..) have been making ghost-free playfields for decades. This current run contains defects that violate that clause. There was no expectation from consumers that ghosting would be possible on new Sterns, and the huge amount of post-knowledge cancelled orders shows people view this as an unacceptable variation.

Again, this is on the manufacturer. If people are forced to sue their distributors, then the distributors would likely sue Stern to be made whole.

I have a hard time believing Trent is getting no communication from Stern. We have had no issue. Of course nobody knows when Stern will do. Stern would have no reason not to make these issues right. I think everyone involved would like this resolved. Again I have no clue why Stern hasn't contacted people or made some kind of statement.
Well if Stern sends out populated playfields your distributor is responsible. They also can install them. This sucks for people not buying local.

So you'd take the whole game back and offer a full refund when the ghosting started appearing 100 games in?

What would you do with the machine at that point?

I strongly smell bullshit. Go trash your competition in another thread, please.

Well at least my TH vs BG decision has been made for me!

come on and get it Lab, before it starts ghosting

I agree. Trent's prices and reputation is pretty much unbeatable. This is not a good time to promote a competing business.

JJP certainly made things right for all the customers who's playfields had all the paint wear off.

They quickly sent out a bunch of playfield repair stickers:

WOZ_repair_(resized).jpg

Hi All,
Wow a spelling lesson? Both spellings are correct. It is like theater or theatre. The problem with forums like this is that the negativity tends to be off the chart. I agree Stern should try harder to prevent things like this. I never said it would be easy for any dealer to sort things like this out but it is our responsibility. KPG please call me Monday on my cell 585-329-3125 and I will help you fix this problem.

take care-Jerry

He sent me a PF because I called and bugged the shit out of him and it was a throw away with dished inserts. Jack is no better than Stern.

Uh, no.

A warranty is a guarantee given by a company to a purchaser stating that a product will meet certain requirements during a given time.

A warrantee is someone to whom the warranty is given.

I would and do replace the playfield. It is my responsibility to deliver what is promised. A pinball in the proper condition. We keep extra parts on hand to deal with issues. I have been doing this for over forty years. It is one of the main reasons we unbox , assemble and ensure the game is correct. We have a mostly local clientele who we encourage to come and look at the very game they intend on buying. We deliver games within a 350 mile radius of our shop. Customer satisfaction is key for my business. Repeat customers make up almost 40% of my annual sales. So not only is good customer service ethical it is a key component to my business model. I am surprised to see such skeptical attitudes. Over the years I have gotten to know a good number of dealers and know they take a similar view. Also I have to be honest. I almost always get a perfect machine from Stern. It is a small percent that has issues. I guess I am old school. You take the bad with the good. I may lose money on one game to make my customer happy. As long as it is 1 in 100 then it works.
I never mentioned anyone by name so no trash. Further I am a dealer who feels that the customer needs to get satisfaction from the dealer. Afterwards we can go nose to nose with the manufacturer. I just feel the customer doesn't need to be a part of that. In the end it usually comes out OK. I have offered to help kpg and am sure he will be ok too.

thanks-Jerry

Well I learned something new as well.

That also explains why I have never seen a manufacturer offering a "warrantee".