but seems they do not know the difference between a Pro and Premium playfield http://coinoppartsetc.com/product/parts-sale-pinball-machine/game-thrones-pro-pinball-machine-game-playfield-production-reject

Not sure what to make of it. I'll try to get a picture. But it feels like excess glue.

Interesting.. I had not seen those guys before. But that is a different case when they are just selling off inventory they chose not to put into customer units. When they make a claim due to these bad items, they are no longer simply inventory or used.

My "excess glue" under an arrow insert. Looked like a crack at first. I used my fingernail and got some off. Maybe an Xacto knife would do the rest.

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If it's soft enough to scrape off with a fingernail, try using toothpicks before resorting to an X-Acto knife. That way you won't scratch the insert.

I tried my finger and a toothpick. Toothpick kept breaking. lol. I used the Xacto knife and it came off. If it scratched the insert, you can't really tell with all the jeweling. lol

Some MET owners PFs were swapped out, some were not.
It also happened with Pros for a time.
Depending on the chipping severity and ability to be diplomatic with their distributor and Stern, they received assistance.
Being a complete jackwagon resulted in them getting nothing.
Stern still made the final call.
The process was still a PITA for both owners and Stern when warranted.

This went for cosmetic problems on cabinets as well due to adhesion issues.
Some got new decals, some received NOTHING.

GOT PFs had issues too (and some still do), and a few got swaps, the rest received mylar decals.
In most GB cases here, I would expect the same.
Mylar decals over the ghosting, with some type of color variation to hide the damage.
One or two inserts is NOTHING, regardless of what an owner believes is acceptable based on what they paid for their game or not.

Just because an owner has cosmetic flaws on games does not automatically result in Stern giving the owner a new playfield.
This has already been stated dozens of times, but are still living in a fantasy world, feeling they are "owed" something.
Some just want a free handout, like what happened with MMr where owners were FAKING using photos from other people to get new PFs.
PPS did not take the bait, and neither will Stern.
If it is legit, they will help, but an owner has to properly help themselves first by being educated, not ranting.
Coin Ops Parts website gave a few good examples of the rejects, when they happen.

Me and 6 others that I know of here. I am the only one on Pinside and the only one that has posted any pics. The playfield issues have not stopped any one of us from buying NIB Stern LE again.

you need to just drop it with your lies and BS. Unless you are a Stern employee speaking with facts then you dont have a damn clue. This is completely unacceptable and you trying to placate the masses is BS. Mylar to 'fix' ghosting and cracked insert? WTF seriously... Saying that customers are jackwagons and then Stern tells them to piss off. saying 1-2 inserts is not a big deal??? again WTF. Try selling a game in 18months with a cracked and ghosted insert and tell me it isnt a big deal.

you seriously dont have a clue. Stern has had pretty good customer service in the past when issues have cropped up and I dont think it is just that we buy every new game so we magically get better service.

We are customers like all others. When we have had issues, we file a report, provide detailed info to help them track down the problem, and sometimes need to do a little nudging or reminding them that we find a defect unacceptable and EVERY single time they have come through with a solution that makes us, the customer, happy.

1 week and 180 games in on my GB LE and no ghosting at all

I can totally relate to your explanation and I feel that a little bit of inadequate prep has also been thrown in. In the photo attached you can see where the insert has been sanded around the inset and then not final sanded correctly to remove the marks. This is underneath the clear coat. We have two inserts where the clear is lifting (very minor) and this is the area where most of the air balls are pounding the playfield. We have put mylar over the inserts and since doing that the clear coat has not lifted any further. Stern cannot be held fully accountable for what happens to their machines once they have left their factory. We as owners can help ourselves by using some preventative measures and stop small issues from becoming big ones. As soon as someone develops and sells a piece of plastic to stop the air balls we will but it and fit it. I am sure that Stern did not intentionally want us to have issues and for the same reason I am sure that Stern will sort something out.

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You are correct, networking in the coin operated industry through manufacturers is extremely useful.
So is history, both in game production, and what was issued for fixes.
So is experience in playfield manufacturing, clear coats, and game design.

I have nothing to gain by lying, and have no interest in drama, narcissism, or ego boosting.
People have come to realize that here.
I don't recall ever saying mylar was a substitute for a cracked insert, but you can hide spider webbing fairly well due to fissures from molds.
What I do know is there is not going to be a "playfield recall".
Each is going to be dealt with on a individual basis, just like it has been done in the past.
This is not the cost effective means to deal with the problem.
It never has been in the history of the industry, even during the time when 85+% of all games were purchased by operators.
Operators received PF swap out too, when something was really $#@!ed up.

For example:
Some people here have no idea how many F-14 Tomcat PFs back in 1986 were jacked during the first part of the production run, and had to be rejected due to insert problems, well over a quarter, and WMS went back again to finish the production overall. Yes, I said 1986 because that is when the PFs were made, not 1987. WMS ran out because they were so jacked up.

I am not adding to the frenzy, just pointing out some of the potential resolutions that may occur based on the final decision, which ARE being considered as a means to correct the problem.
These methods HAVE been used.
I never said I agreed with particular choices of manufacturers, as I did not make the decisions as I am now a "consumer" not an operator anymore, and currently not doing any consignment technical support or work at the present time.
However, I do still remain "plugged in".
That is generally why I prefer to buy games from brokers/dealers/operators/collectors that I have worked with over the years I trust.
I did provide an incorporated amount of historical and industry information to try and help educate people that many of the PF problems have occurred in the past.

If you do not believe me regarding any/some/all this information, I cannot do anything about that.
This is well beyond the scope of this thread.

No game currently is exclusively targeted at the consumer market, this is another continuous error.
I cannot seem to understand why people still believe this as a "fact".
Operators WANT new games, as they MAKE MONEY.
There is a GB LE already in downtown Portland at the Slingshot Lounge.
I know because I have played it, and am friends with the operator and business.
It is also BROKE right now, when I went back again.
See photo below.
Not sure how this or my mentality is stuck in the past, the game is still being routed, not sitting in a collector's basement.
I really did not look that close at the inserts when I was playing the game to see if they had problems because they were LIT UP.
I would have needed to take the glass off.
This time, I just moved on like most to other games that did work as it was too dark to see properly.

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Who is your source at Stern? You're making a ton of claims here...

You're saying Stern will help an owner with "legit claims" ... Please specify exactly how Stern defines a "legit claim" and how that fits into this thread. I'm sure Stern customers would like that cleared up... In fact, I think Stern, itself, might be interested in that definition too.

History is cool and a fun part of the hobby, but in no way dictates modern Customer/manufacturer expectations and interactions.

At no time in the history of pinball has every single run of a game been marketed directly to consumers. Ever. It's that way now, though. Times have changed, so has the market. Don't believe it? Just look at Stern's entire marketing strategy.

100% spot on.

The blackknight seems stuck in the past. Reality is the squeaky wheel gets greased and we are living in a new world. No longer are the end buyers of pinball dominated by operators. This is the biggest screw up Stern has had in the past (ever?). They need to deal with this or are facing big issues in profits and possibly the logevity of the company.

This could not possibly be at a worse time for them. Moved into and scaled up to a larger factory so more overhead. JJP is delivering lots of Hobbit to good review of quality, spooky is taking money out of the jar again with good review and great customer service, JJP #3 is coming at expo, Aliens is coming at expo and FullT is going out in larger numbers with positive review and GREAT customer service...

times have changed black knight... Stern will need to address these changes or suffer the consequences. I am confident based on recent past history that they will eventually fix these issues for customers, even if it means you have to complain a little louder to get a response. They also are smart and nimble with Gomez at the helm. he understands that this is a BIG screw up.

That's almost 26 games a night. If a game is 5 minutes long? that's over 2 hours a night.

Yep, we play the heck out of it. Put up some nice scores GC is 1.2B then there are 380M, 350M 290M.......It's fun. still 100% factory setup, no alterations.

That is such good news! Our ghosting did not show up until about 350 games and I honestly believe that had we fitted a protector to stop the airs balls we would still have no ghosting at all.

name is something like Mr. Otto Mabutthole I think...

Most of the inserts on my MET Premium look like that.

Unfortunately those gambling with a purchase should note that in the last 5 years, Stern has swapped populated playfields for damaged ones very few times. I doubt Stern will offer populated playfields as a solution (believing blank playfield is the most they will offer). Most sound as if getting a populated pf is a foregone conclusion. Beware, this has been a rare occurence by Stern. Heck they might not ever fess up and give you nada.

Our CEO has a GB at our office and I confirmed the ghosting seen in many of these pictures after reading through it.

I would be 100% fine with an unpopulated playfield, as long as I get to keep the old one too. Play the heck out of it and replace it down the road someday........

I think I've heard of him. Isn't his office down the hall and next to Mr. Sheetz?

Can I ask what is the build date of your machine? We got our Metallica Roadcase last November, fitted a sparky protector straight away and so far we have zero playfield issues with that machine. It has around 850 plays on it. From what I can work out with my limited info, playfield issues started around Feb of this year and now quite possibly could be resolved. One of my friends got his GBLE in Florida two weeks ago and so far no playfield issues. His build date in mid July 2016. Our build date is late May 2016. We have swapped photos and the playfield on his machine looks 100 x better than ours. No scratches under the clear, no marks around the inserts, no rough sanding marks anywhere, definitely no ghosting and definitely no clear coat issues.

with both being represented by the law firm of "Dewey Screwem and Howe " LLB

Actually it does, and in more ways than I could possibly explain in a singular post.

However, It can be summarized in a quote:
"If you know the past, you can understand the present, and predict the future."

As it been said over countless repeated posts, by not just me:
Playfield production has essentially remained unchanged for well over 50+ years. Production standards have remain the same.
Materials roughly the same.

The industry does not "change overnight" and neither does the equipment that has been used to make playfields since the 1950s. It just does not happen.

If owners want to blame somebody for living in past, target Stern, not informed people like myself who try to assist by contacting distributors and educate people in the situation.

I am not person you are looking to bullseye for false expectations of the future regarding fixes of this latest iteration of the same insert problem that has occurred since the switch to the modern clear coat process in 1989.
That was 27 years ago, and most here were not buying pinball machines.
Playing perhaps? Yes.
Buying NIB? Rarely.
Ultimately, this comes from looking in a mirror, and reflecting on choices.

There also is no "magic play number" when chipping or problems start. More wives tale tomfoolery.

I do hope people get compensation, but don't expect it, including "free playfields".

Stern still has the power, not owners, as clearly demonstrated by many that don't care if inserts are perfect like operators or non collectors. Not every owner is a collector. Operators will still make money, break even, make profit, and still sell this game for than it is worth based on condition down the road IF spare game specific parts are even available, which is highly questionable based on what I have seen from Stern lately. They are not supporting games made in the early 2000s. That should worry collectors too, but I dont see 3000 post thread on that area yet.

We don't really know if this is some type of "tipping point" because plenty of other Stern games from 1999-2009 had !/@$as up playfields, but people in many cases here were simply not around to see them.
Guess what?
Production standards remained the same for games, and it had nothing to do with home owner purchases, even though sales were in significant rise from 2007 onwards. Operators/owners did bark, but not always "rewarded".

There is no "high horse" just education.

One side says Stern will make it right

Another side says Stern won't make it right

For those who have yet to buy... "The only winning move is not to play"

Gotta love a War Games reference.

Not rare... Just not widely discussed on sites like pinside. I know multiple people in my very region that have had full populated swaps through stern as the resolution to their pf issues on nib games

Damn you Stern, you even affected my 1976 GTB Surf Champ. Bastards.
Sorry, had to make a little giggle for myself. I know there are some more serious issues. Good luck.

ghosting_Surf_Champ_(resized).jpg

Actually, it doesn't. While some processes have remained unchanged, levels of expectations have been set - even through the words of the owner of the pinball company in question - in an entirely new market space that has been created and is current being farmed for significant amounts of cash.

Stern is a manufacturing company that is manufacturing directly to satisfy that market. They have change their approach to what they are manufacturing in order to meet new demands.

Much of their manufacturing process has changed - be it the tools used to design games... Choices involved in picking themes... Parts, such as bulbs and board sets... How games are coded (and the expectations of what code will deliver to the end user... Reveal processes and allowing collectors/players to influence game design and art...Pricing... Distributor requirements... And, yes, quality measurements.

You need to down shift and merge with the modern flow...and get over the fact that not every modern day collector wants to (or will) follow your rules or standards for participating in this hobby. You also need to step back and realize that the playing field is changing. History - when delivered respectfully - is awesome. Trying to apply all history to modern circumstances is a fumble.

good question.

Guess you're right. I just eliminated the possibility Stern won't back up the product they manufactured and sold at premium prices.

In any case, since when has a fallacious argument stopped anyone on pinside?

Worst case scenario: Stern says quality is acceptable and refuses to replace playfields

Solution: Unpopulate the playfield, send out to reputable clear coater, repopulate playfield, enjoy for lifetime

Time: A couple of weekends to unpopulate/populate playfield. 6-12 weeks to clear.

Costs: Your time and $300-$600 for clear

Bottomline: It sucks it has to be this way but for 5% of the purchase price, the playfield can be bulletproofed.

Honestly, if this game is as good as the early reviews suggest, a new clear will be money well spent.

Edit: Wow, my first down vote in 4+ years. I am now an official Pinsider!

unfortunately most peopel do not have the skill to do a cold swap.

aside from that, laying down new clear does not appear it will fix this issue. Ghosting from sunken inserts is not going to stop the inserts from sinking.

The minimal acceptable reslution for me personally is a brand new pf which is properly made and cleared. That would allow people to do a hot swap if they deem it necessary or sell the extra pf along with the game when the time comes.

I know this would not be acceptable for many and as I said, MINIMAl acceptable for me personally.

It also would be the cheapest solution for Stern as pfs dont cost very much and is they work it right they could probably convince most buyers to pony up the actual cost/ $100 for the new pf.

You are minimizing the value of people's time. It is no small task to unpopulate and repopulate a playfield, and you better hope you don't damage or lose something in the process.

Fair point. For me, working on the machine is more fun than playing. I'm kinda messed up that way.

People's time is valuable, no doubt. However, if you are going to be in this hobby, its best to know how these machines work. As far as teardown/rebuild, not nearly as hard as others suggest. Of course, White Water is the exception to that rule. The ramps were insanity.

Not really. The types of issues listed in that thread are all easy fixes, either for the end user or for the manufacturer. The most concerning issue in that thread is the sound mix issues where music/sound effects are too loud and you can't hear the call outs. Even that should be fixable with a code up date or at worst a board swap.

These GB pf issues are going to be a much bigger headache to deal with. My guess would be Stern isn't going to send out populated PFs and it is highly unlikely a tech comes to your house and swaps the PF for you, due to cost reasons. So if Stern issues new PFs for everyone, most will be stuck with a new PF that they have no idea how to install.

For these reasons MMR is a much better NIB pin to buy if you are in the market. especially if your kid likes the game and you have built him up with the hope of getting a new pinball.

As you say, a hot swap is one thing. A cold swap is a major pain in the ass. And given these games are weeks old and cost $12300 (Aud) I think it's easy to see while people are pissed.

At least when you finally sell the game you can sell the game with the new PF.

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True. However i would say most aren't concerned with selling the game they just want what they paid good money for, a quality pin without defects.

Putting a new coat of clear over a layer that has de-bonded from an insert will not magically cause the old layer to re-attach, nor will it magically re-glue loose inserts. Someone will have to scrape artwork from the insert(s), remove the loose or sunken/raised insert(s), re-glue the insert(s), prep the playfield, apply new artwork to the insert(s), and then re-clearing the playfield. Unless you can do *that* work yourself you're looking at easily $700 or more to fix a manufacturing defect that shouldn't be there in the first place.

Do I and all consumers want/expect a defect free machine? YES
Should we voice our displeasure when Stern (or any manufacturer) ships machines with defects? YES
Will Stern resolve these issues in a timely and fair manner that satisfies everyone? Most likely NOT

For me, I prefer to focus my energy on potential solutions. So, what options do we have if Stern fails to provide an acceptable solution to this problem. In other words, what is our backup plan. I suggested a new clear. However, that was met with all sorts of potential issues. What do we know for sure at this point with respect to the inserts/clear? Is it truly sunken inserts? What is your magical solution to this issue if Stern does not replace the playfields?

March 12, 2016.

Is this an issue that should be brought to Stern's attention? It's literally on EVERY insert.

1) If i still love the pin in a year and its a "keeper" for me AND I end up having problems with "ghosting" AND Stern doesn't do anything to rectify the problem, I will play it for years and then at some point buy a new play field and pay somebody to replace it.

-If Stern doesn't fix the problem I would consider never buying another NIB and simply wait for the secondary market

2) If i don't end up liking the pin or simply get tired of it AND i have "ghosting" issues, then I'll just sell it for a discount and chalk it up to a lesson learned, AGAIN!

3) I have the "ghosting" problem AND Stern fixes the problems satisfactorily and then we live happily ever after and I keep buying NIB pins I'm interested in.

Either way it goes, I'm ok with it. Life goes on and this weekend I'll be playing my GBLE and drinking beer. What's not to like!

STOP buying new games form them would be the most logical solution, esp since there are not LOTS of other options if you insist on buying new games.

Reality is that many people with just keep on buying regardless of the resolution or lack of. Most of these things seem to take time to show the reprocussion. When people start trying to sell HUO GB with ghosting and cracked inserts and secondary buyer dont bite at 4500, then 4000, then??? then people will just deal with the sting at that time.

That said, if enough preorders get cancelled then distributors will likely raise hell and Stern may take notice.