Big Game
Stern Electronics, 1980
Game of Thrones (LE)
Stern, 2015
Game of Thrones (Premium)
Stern, 2015
Game Of Thrones (Pro)
Stern, 2015
Ghostbusters (LE)
Stern, 2016
Ghostbusters (Premium)
Stern, 2016
Ghostbusters (Pro)
Stern, 2016
Metallica (Premium)
Stern, 2013Quoted from kpg:So.. you think Gary Stern is lying to online business publications about where there revenue comes from, just to make home users feel "special" ?
It's just a joke.
Anything written in Comic Sans cannot be taken seriously.
Quoted from kpg:I posted two separate sources, one with Jody Dankberg stating 80%, and another interview with Gary Stern himself stating 80%.
Here they are again:
http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/16/3793274/stern-inside-one-of-the-last-pinball-factories-in-the-world
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20130216/ISSUE01/302169976/the-next-thing-for-our-digital-age-pinball
I understand. I'm simply saying I'm not sure I believe either of them.
Quoted from TheZohan:I understand. I'm simply saying I'm not sure I believe either of them.
Yeah it's all a conspiracy...to... well shit I dunno... lol
Quoted from Manic:Yeah it's all a conspiracy...to... well shit I dunno... lol
I don't know either. I'm not suggesting ANYTHING other than I'm not sure I believe any numbers they release. But I do know exact accurate production numbers for all Stern Pros ever made. PM me for more info 
Quoted from vid1900:It's just a joke.
Anything written in Comic Sans cannot be taken seriously.
Quoted from cody_chunn:The rub: Pinball machines are a commercial product. They are intended to be bought and routed by an operator. That's why the have coin slots and pricing adjustments. Their ability to recover ROI is unaffected by these "problems". They will earn the same with blemishes or not.
We are trying to impose "collector condition" quality defects on a commercial device. We are buying for personal enjoyment in the commercial market. I fully expect Stern to eventually say these "defects" are acceptable for their commercial products.
If you want collector quality, buy from a manufacturer that is making a personal use item designed for collectors.
Quoted from vid1900:It's just a joke.
Anything written in Comic Sans cannot be taken seriously.
What do you know anyways, you're just a Vidiot.
Quoted from vid1900:Gary Stern did not say 80% at the last Expo.
I have never been quoted in any newspaper or magazine article without it being full of mis-quotes.
Yes, the writer records the interview on a digital recorder (like a Tascam), but that does not make it any more accurate.
Even if I hand them a "bullet point" sheet with proper numbers or time table on it, there will always be some glaring misquote that my boss will ask if I "really said that".
No one cares.
If you call them out on an important error, they publish a tiny correction in a future edition.
A web-only article will sometimes fix the online edition, but how many people go back and read the same article twice?
I don't disagree with the gist of what you are saying here, I've experienced the same thing myself. However, the follow-up quote re: collectors expecting perfection supports the original 80% number, so I think you're grasping at straws with this Vid.
...face it. Us whiny collectors with microscopes RULE the roost now! 
Pinball as a commercial public exhibition will soon be limited to bars and locations that can support league play. League players also expect excellent condition games. In fact, playing league machines is a primary way for collectors to "try out" new games before deciding to purchase. Nobody will want to buy a game if the one on location has serious defects, cosmetic or otherwise, right out of the box.
Nothing wrong with this, just the natural evolution of things. Though, I always wondered why they didn't just add the damned ticket dispensers to the pinball machines so kids would look twice at them in the modern "arcades"? Never seen one that did though. 
Quoted from Mbecker:I wouldn't say this is necessarily true either.. we have plenty of LE's and Premiums on route around here.. Operators are buying those just as much as Pros.. and there's plenty of home owners buying Pros 'cause that's what they can afford as well. The pricing model that some people seem to get upset about simply allows consumers to choose what fits their needs and budget, not any different than many other consumer products.
.
It makes No sense for an operator to put an LE on site if there is a premium version (same game play), LE's are aimed at the home market.
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:It makes No sense for an operator to put an LE on site if there is a premium version (same game play), LE's are aimed at the home market.
It makes no sense to many for home market buyers to buy LEs as your just paying extra for art work.
Quoted from Jaybird815:It makes no sense to many for home market buyers to buy LEs as your just paying extra for art work.
I'm buying a GB LE because I love the slimer artwork and powder coat. I'll buy the premium instead if you can find someone to change the artwork, do the powder coat and ad a shaker for less then the LE mark up but good luck buying the LE decals.
Quoted from Jaybird815:It makes no sense to many for home market buyers to buy LEs as your just paying extra for art work.
Plus designer signature under clear coat,mirrored back glass,powdercoated armour, lollipop side rails, engraved and numbered plaque under back glass,shaker motor (with GBLE at least) and certificate of authenticity signed by Gary Stern you can hang on the wall.
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:It makes No sense for an operator to put an LE on site if there is a premium version (same game play), LE's are aimed at the home market.
You'll have to explain that to the operators around here. When looking to play a new pin locally, it's not unusual that I find it's an LE on location, just like he said.
Quoted from Jgaltr56:I have a feeling we won't be seeing any visible inserts in the future. They will all be covered by art. At least that's what I'd do. Why would any manufacturer take the chance?
Well, they might as well. Then you wouldn't have the mega-crazed inserts like I've got on my MET Pro to deal with. Some people like it, I'm not such a huge fan myself.
Quoted from Pinballpal:Plus designer signature under clear coat,mirrored back glass,powdercoated armour, lollipop side rails, engraved and numbered plaque under back glass,shaker motor (with GBLE at least) and certificate of authenticity signed by Gary Stern you can hang on the wall.
... plus ghosting inserts! 
Quoted from Pinballpal:Plus designer signature under clear coat,mirrored back glass,powdercoated armour, lollipop side rails, engraved and numbered plaque under back glass,shaker motor (with GBLE at least) and certificate of authenticity signed by Gary Stern you can hang on the wall ?.
I'm not ripping on anyone who buys an LE, what I said is that there are many people out there who could care less about any of that stuff and just prefer to play.
Quoted from AlexSMendes:... plus ghosting inserts!
I sure hope not or their be hell to pay. 
Unqualified numbers are meaningless anyway.
Home buyers are:
80% of LE Sales?
80% of ALL sales?
80% of all sales today?
80% of all sales this week?
80% of all sales this quarter?
80% of all sales so far this year?
80% of all sales ever, including used games?
80% of all sales from 2000 - 2015?
80% of Retail sales?
80% of walk-in sales at Cue & Spa?
-
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics.” - Mark Twain
Quoted from Fytr:League players also expect excellent condition games. In fact, playing league machines is a primary way for collectors to "try out" new games before deciding to purchase.
I've haven't met too many competitive players that care at all about the cosmetic condition of games that are played in a league/tournament. Ya, they should play well but no one I know is going to kick up a stink about a beat up cabinet or some clear coat lifting on an insert.
Quoted from someoneelse:I don't think much has changed in export/domestic ratio. At least if you look at the LE sales it's usually 50/50.
What I can say 100% for sure is that the commercial ratio is tiny here in Europe, especially in Germany. It is extremely hard to find machines on route, while the collector market is huge.
I really doubt that that Stern is doing more sales on commercial than home use. But since this thread it is quite clear to me why Gary is emphasizing the commercial sales again and again as his main field of business - it is more or less the only "excuse" that pinheads here are bringing up regarding the quality problems Stern seems to be having.
Imagine the level of outrage if Stern would acknowledge something like 70-80% home user sales. All arguments in this thread defending Stern's quality level would be void immediately and all of a sudden home users would have a voice that counts.
I was just working this out myself... in my city Christchurch, 15 HUO Sterns , 5 Sterns on site to go play,
So here that's 75% in home sales
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:It makes No sense for an operator to put an LE on site if there is a premium version (same game play), LE's are aimed at the home market.
I service LEs on route all the time.
No lack of them earning around here.
Quoted from vid1900:Unqualified numbers are meaningless anyway.
Home buyers are:
80% of LE Sales?
80% of ALL sales?
80% of all sales today?
80% of all sales this week?
80% of all sales this quarter?
80% of all sales so far this year?
80% of all sales ever, including used games?
80% of all sales from 2000 - 2015?
80% of Retail sales?
80% of walk-in sales at Cue & Spa?
-
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics.” - Mark Twain
Me thinks thou doth protest too much...
Quoted from vid1900:It's just a joke.
Anything written in Comic Sans cannot be taken seriously.
No wonder my resume always gets ignored
Quoted from vid1900:Unqualified numbers are meaningless anyway.
Home buyers are:
80% of LE Sales?
80% of ALL sales?
80% of all sales today?
80% of all sales this week?
80% of all sales this quarter?
80% of all sales so far this year?
80% of all sales ever, including used games?
80% of all sales from 2000 - 2015?
80% of Retail sales?
80% of walk-in sales at Cue & Spa?
-
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics.” - Mark Twain
Vid, I am not sure what your skillset or profession is outside pinball and here on Pinside, so bare with me here.
When company executives or marketing professionals (Such as Gary Stern and Jody Dankberg) speak about percentages of sold units and revenue, they generally refer to the past annual accounting report, or at the very least- their most recent quarterly revenue report. These reports are shared with their board of directors, in which their investors sit and want to know what is going on with the company they have financial interest in.
I know you are skeptical, and all we have to go off of is the information the company marketing director and owner/executive has said publicly to various news outlets and publications. We have information coming from the horses mouth, and your argument is based off of your personal opinion. There is absolutely no way they are referring to solely LE or daily sales.
Like I said earlier, there is no reason to debate this. Check the calendar, this is 2016 - not a warm summer day in the 1990's. It's a completely different demographic and business landscape if you are in the coin operated amusement machine industry.
Quoted from RJW:I've haven't met too many competitive players that care at all about the cosmetic condition of games that are played in a league/tournament. Ya, they should play well but no one I know is going to kick up a stink about a beat up cabinet or some clear coat lifting on an insert.
Totally. A good playing game is most important in league play.
I meant more if they see all kinds of issues on new Stern games at their league location (ghosted inserts, chipping cleacoat, etc.), it would give them pause about making a purchase for their home collection.
Quoted from Jaybird815:It makes no sense to many for home market buyers to buy LEs as your just paying extra for art work.
Yes, but I live with the art work that I pick 
Quoted from vid1900:I service LEs on route all the time.
No lack of them earning around here.
I'm sure a premium would still earn the same for less money
The only reason I can see for an operator to buy a LE is for a better return when they sell it off route, or are going to keep in their personal collection.
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:It makes No sense for an operator to put an LE on site if there is a premium version (same game play), LE's are aimed at the home market.
LEs come out much earlier than the Premiums. If you want to be the first to have the full featured game on route and you want to benefit from the earnings in the timeframe before the Premium is released, you go LE. If the timeline between the Pro, LE and Premium are too far apart, but the time the Premium makes it to route, the thrill is gone and the game isn't earning like it did when it was first released. There is an op here who buys LEs all the time to route cause he doesn't want to wait for the Premium. Normally the resale will hold it's value better as well.
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:I'm sure a premium would still earn the same for less money
If you go to a serious pinball joint like any of the Pinball Pete's, you will see all LE Sterns.
I'm not sure if they make more or less money than a Pro, but they keep buying them, year after year.
Quoted from vid1900:If you go to a serious pinball joint like any of the Pinball Pete's, you will see all LE Sterns.
I'm not sure if they make more or less money than a Pro, but they keep buying them, year after year.
And I get a 42% larger erection when I see LEs on route
Quoted from vid1900:Unqualified numbers are meaningless anyway.
Home buyers are:
80% of LE Sales?
80% of ALL sales?
80% of all sales today?
80% of all sales this week?
80% of all sales this quarter?
80% of all sales so far this year?
80% of all sales ever, including used games?
80% of all sales from 2000 - 2015?
80% of Retail sales?
80% of walk-in sales at Cue & Spa?
-
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics.” - Mark Twain
4 GB coming to Christchurch for home use, none for operations so far, so that's 100% for this title
Quoted from vid1900:I service LEs on route all the time.
No lack of them earning around here.
In Yemen? 
Do they use human heads on giant sized pinball tables?
Quoted from kpg:So.. you think Gary Stern is lying to online business publications about where there revenue comes from, just to make home users feel "special" ?
Since everyone around here likes to state Gary is all about thinking of the operator first, wouldn't it be the other way around? Wouldn't he want to state that operators represent 80% of the business so that *OPs* could feel more special? With your logic, even if it was true, clearly the correct move for a business owner selling products in a niche market would be to make their #1 customers - in this case, collectors - feel "special".
Have you ever hear Gary tell you what his favorite game is? Here's a hint... it's going to be a sales answer. I think the general premise is they will often say what they want the message to be. Selectively including and excluding things can make the numbers change significantly. Notice what you see missing from all those stat quotes? Follow up questions...
Quoted from kpg:There is a simple explanation for it-the generation of 80's and 90's kids who loved playing pinball have now grown up can now afford to own and collect pins for their own private usage now
And what do you think the kids of the 60s and 70s played? Pinball was bigger and had greater market penetration in the decades prior... so why would the 80s and 90s kids somehow now represent a new dawn compared to the generation before... who played a heck of a lot more pinball than the video game generation did.
Quoted from flynnibus:Have you ever hear Gary tell you what his favorite game is? Here's a hint... it's going to be a sales answer. I think the general premise is they will often say what they want the message to be. Selectively including and excluding things can make the numbers change significantly. Notice what you see missing from all those stat quotes? Follow up questions...
And what do you think the kids of the 60s and 70s played? Pinball was bigger and had greater market penetration in the decades prior... so why would the 80s and 90s kids somehow now represent a new dawn compared to the generation before... who played a heck of a lot more pinball than the video game generation did.
That's easy. The "baby boomers" ended up with a LOT more disposable income than the previous generation.
Quoted from Manic:That's easy. The "baby boomers" ended up with a LOT more disposable income than the previous generation.
I think you mean Gen X.
Quoted from flynnibus:And what do you think the kids of the 60s and 70s played?
Quoted from kpg:Vid, I am not sure what your skillset or profession is outside pinball and here on Pinside, so bare with me here.
When company executives or marketing professionals (Such as Gary Stern and Jody Dankberg) speak about percentages of sold units and revenue, they generally refer to the past annual accounting report, or at the very least- their most recent quarterly revenue report. These reports are shared with their board of directors, in which their investors sit and want to know what is going on with the company they have financial interest in.
It's a private company... they aren't under the same kinds of reporting and obligations a public company that solicits on the open exchanges. They probably don't even have any independent board members - just the principles and their own interests represented.
Quoted from Manic:That's easy. The "baby boomers" ended up with a LOT more disposable income than the previous generation.
You need some help on the definition of baby boomers... those were the kids born after WWII - not vietnam :p
Quoted from flynnibus:You need some help on the definition of baby boomers... those were the kids born after WWII - not vietnam :p
Ooops. But you knew what I meant anyways right ? You're always such a nice fellow. Must be a hoot at parties
Quoted from Manic:Ooops. But you knew what I meant anyways right ? You're always such a nice fellow. Must be a hoot at parties
I still disagree with the premise. Man caves aren't a new concept in the last 10 years. The game rooms popping up in most of these new collections of the 'new blood' in the hobby are not representative of games of the 80s and 90s.. its not SS and uprights... it's people buying NIB Sterns and maybe venturing into the past titles people keep telling them are worth it.
The change that started in the late 2000s was not simply a demographic reaching the age to buy their own toys and buying nostalgia. This market shift was very different from the 10-15 years prior who WERE guys buying nostalgia.
Quoted from kpg:Let's face it - collectors are what is keeping the hobby alive, and how Gary Stern can keep signing the paychecks for his employees. There is no sense to debate that at this point in time.
+1
As an operator, buying a $8K pin is too risky. Even at $1 a play, the operator will be lucky to break even on his investment. Operators are not going to waste their time.
Despite living in a big city like Atlanta, there is absolutely no place to play pinball!!!
I knew operators that were *retiring* back in the late 90's when pins were less than half of today's price because of this problem.
Collectors and bringing in money sharks is what helped saved Stern.....NOT the operators!
It is difficult to say a game is for 'home' or for 'location' as that can change over the life of a game. I own two HUO sterns, both will be routed in the next year for about a year each. So new they didn't go out but they will go out. I had a WOZ at home for two years, it is on location now. I will pick up other NIBs and keep them at home for a while and then site them for a year. After a year I may keep it or may sell it who knows where they will go if I sell them.
The point is, as Vid said earlier, it all depends how you look frame the numbers as to how things work out.
Quoted from Magic_Mike:+1
As an operator, buying a $8K pin is too risky. Even at $1 a play, the operator will be lucky to break even on his investment. Operators are not going to waste their time.
Despite living in a big city like Atlanta, there is absolutely no place to play pinball!!!
I knew operators that were *retiring* back in the late 90's when pins were less than half of today's price because of this problem.
Collectors and bringing in money sharks is what helped saved Stern.....NOT the operators!
Buying an 8k pin is not as risky as it seems. You don't need to make all the money back on it but if you spend 8k make 4k on location and sell it for 5k you are ahead plus you got to play the game and introduce it to others.
Quoted from clg:it all depends how you look frame the numbers as to how things work out.
Just like Harley Davidson.
The average owner's age had rose to over 55 years old.
Not wanting to be a "senior bike" brand, they started reporting the numbers differently.
Now when they report their age groupings, they have 18-34 and 35+ years of age, rather than breaking it down by decade.
Then they can further massage the numbers.
Harley now has 55% of the motorcycle market!
(well actually 55% of the: Male, Caucasian, 35+ year old, On-road, 601cc or larger, new bike sales).
Amazing!
Quoted from clg:Buying an 8k pin is not as risky as it seems. You don't need to make all the money back on it but if you spend 8k make 4k on location and sell it for 5k you are ahead plus you got to play the game and introduce it to others.
Good luck with that! Try that with one of your personal pins and post back your results after a year.
Quoted from Magic_Mike:As an operator, buying a $8K pin is too risky. Even at $1 a play, the operator will be lucky to break even on his investment.
I knew operators that were *retiring* back in the late 90's when pins were less than half of today's price because of this problem.
But don't forget about the resale value of said pin. An LE is going to hold it's value the best. So if (and that's a big if) the operator properly maintains his pins then an LE could very well represent a bigger ROI than a pro.
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hey-stern-are-you-serious/page/22 and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
Sana'a
Alexandria, VA
Wellesley, ON