dear santa vid1900:
overall, I've been a pretty good boy this year. please bring me the following for christmas. it would make me very, very happy

The rub: Pinball machines are a commercial product. They are intended to be bought and routed by an operator. That's why the have coin slots and pricing adjustments. Their ability to recover ROI is unaffected by these "problems". They will earn the same with blemishes or not.

We are trying to impose "collector condition" quality defects on a commercial device. We are buying for personal enjoyment in the commercial market. I fully expect Stern to eventually say these "defects" are acceptable for their commercial products.

If you want collector quality, buy from a manufacturer that is making a personal use item designed for collectors.

I still say Stern makes the best pinball.

If collectors stopped buying Stern would go belly up. Their shot is to expensive and there are not enough commercial buyers to support them. So, they need to get their shit together. My opinion

Do you have any actual data to back that up? Because I don't think that's the case.

Every single collector going cold turkey on Stern is a pipe dream. It's an impossible scenario. Do you see how many people swore off pre-ordering only to have GB LE sell out before the first one shipped?

I get what you're saying, but Stern is specifically targeting collectors with the premium and LE offerings. They're basically saying that the pro is for operators, and the more expensive and fuller featured premium and LE models are for collectors. Therefore, hasn't Stern brought this on themselves to a pretty high degree?

If this is happening in home collection games, how quickly will on route games degradate?

I wouldn't say this is necessarily true either.. we have plenty of LE's and Premiums on route around here.. Operators are buying those just as much as Pros.. and there's plenty of home owners buying Pros 'cause that's what they can afford as well. The pricing model that some people seem to get upset about simply allows consumers to choose what fits their needs and budget, not any different than many other consumer products.

A thought on the prices going up though -- If they are getting more people complaining about cosmetic defects (valid or not) and having to send out populated playfields or other peace-offerings than everyone sees the cost go up subsequently on future products is my guess... I don't see Stern just eating those kinds of costs if they are projecting them on future products as well. I think they also had to cover costs of an additional manftring facility or something? (Not totally up on their news but I think I heard something like that?). Their rising prices may not reflect inflation in the last 5 years but I don't think it's all money-grubbing either. If they reached a point that sales dropped too low they would figure out how to bring prices back down or face losses.. clearly they have not reached that point yet so all NIB pin consumers can do about it is complain for now. Arrgg $7k pinball?? Oh the humanity, they used to be $4k!! It sucks to get priced out of a market but whomever they've priced out doesn't seem to be affecting their overall profits enough at the moment.

Reference:

http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/16/3793274/stern-inside-one-of-the-last-pinball-factories-in-the-world

image_(resized).png

I wasn't expecting 80% and The Verge is a trusted source of information.

I agree. If that 80% is real, holy cow.

I still maintain that it doesn't matter though. You can't get collectors to stop buying the latest Stern sight unseen. And honestly, I don't give a crap if people do keep buying them. They can spend their money however they want.

I guess I'm lucky that I can't really afford to drop the money on a NIB. With a 20 year old game I know exactly what I'm getting.

I do not have evidence. That is why I said my opinion.

Very interesting. Also this quote soon after -

SternPerfection_(resized).jpg

Quoted from Dankburg himself. Did he lie or are you saying The Verge is committing libel?

I'm just saying the Verge is a trusted source of information. They would be liable if they published something that was not said or is not true. If Dankburg said it, then they have every right to publish it.

I don't think anyone is saying either. My first thought was the interviewer mis-heard him say 8%. But the fact that he continued to stress that private owners expect perfection means this was an important topic.

Very interesting if true.

Too bad collectors don't demand perfection from the software.

Where have you been for the past year? I think Stern as more than improved on code release times in 2015 compared to previous years.

Yeah, the quote about it not mattering for arcade machines makes me think it might have mattered and Stern just didn't get that.

Maybe if pinball machines had held up slightly better, operators would have been more encouraged to keep them on route. I know my kids are drawn toward the bright, flashy, new things as opposed to the worn down shitty looking ones.

Stern makes some fantastic machines, I have no doubt they will turn out amazing GB machines too waiting for my LE

80% of Stern's US sales, it said.

Is Europe's breakdown different? More games routed than US?

Good question. It might just be that it is hard to track. Is there a difference in paperwork when a distributor sells to an operator versus a private collector?

I wonder.... air pinball is just like, heh.... air guitar?

Another source (from 2013- could be even higher now) stating Stern's business is heavily dependent on home use/collector's business:

“There are more collectors today,” says Mr. Stern, 67 and CEO of the company. He estimates that 80 percent of his company's domestic sales go into homes. “More people are getting into the hobby of it.”

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20130216/ISSUE01/302169976/the-next-thing-for-our-digital-age-pinball

"It's a 3 legged table. It's just one of the legs is freakin' HUGE!"

The rub: Pinball machines were originally a commercial product with very few home buyers. They were intended to be bought and routed by an operator originally. This is no longer the only scenario as their market has changed to greater then 50% of these machines being sold to home owners and or collectors in the USA. Stern doesn't wish to lose this market so they have to adapt to their changing market and they have done so and are continuing to do so. Stern relies on both of these seperate markets purchasing pinball machines for their business. They address both of these markets as they both are important. Stern is designing these machines for collectors, home buyers, operators and if you watch a few of their interviews at expos and what not they publicly state this as their intentions. They are concerned with what collectors and home buyers think otherwise they would not address these cosmetic issues. Their tech support helps a lot of buyers both operators and collectors with non official warranty issues related to cosmetics. They do not just tell these people to pound sand and try to satisfy their concerns because they realize that they need to address these issues for the success of their business now and in the future.

So that being said those that say if you don't like it don't buy is not a relevant arguement. Home buyers and collectors want pinball machines in their homes and or collections and Stern needs these customers as well. Home buyers and collectors buy pinball machines for a variety of reasons, to play them, to display them, to collect them, ect ect....Stern realizes this and does cater to this market. They address cosmetic issues as well as electronic ones. 100% satisfaction will never be reached as they have to filter in reasonable resolutions that don't destroy their bottom line but also resolutions that satisfy most buyers both present and in the future.

Yes, these stats vary by region significantly. What would be of interest is if the domestic vs international ratio has shifted significantly with the rise of the North American collectors.

Europe used to be a dominate force on par with domestic sales and made things like license choices potentially very challenging (shows that made sense in US, but not in Europe, etc). We all know the story about what Germany Distro impact on Pin2k.

If the rise of the Domestic Collectors not only changed the commercial vs home ratio.. but domestic vs international significantly.. that would be more impact.

You know what, I completely misread your post LOL.

Move along

I kind of wish Stern had a network of techs in major city areas that specialized in Sterns and could do house calls. I'm fine paying with the service. I can do some basic work myself. It's convenient for me because it's difficult to call their tech line when I'm off because I can't be at the machine while I'm work. Also they are leading me through something I am vaguely familiar with.

Something as easy as contact form to put in your zip code, then here are the tech people in your area that you can get in touch with.

Gary Stern did not say 80% at the last Expo.

I have never been quoted in any newspaper or magazine article without it being full of mis-quotes.

Yes, the writer records the interview on a digital recorder (like a Tascam), but that does not make it any more accurate.

Even if I hand them a "bullet point" sheet with proper numbers or time table on it, there will always be some glaring misquote that my boss will ask if I "really said that".

No one cares.

If you call them out on an important error, they publish a tiny correction in a future edition.

A web-only article will sometimes fix the online edition, but how many people go back and read the same article twice?

It's ok just to admit you're wrong sometimes....
There are two independent sources that claim 80%, quoting two different people.

It's either 80%, or Stern wants people to know it's 80%.

I don't think much has changed in export/domestic ratio. At least if you look at the LE sales it's usually 50/50.

What I can say 100% for sure is that the commercial ratio is tiny here in Europe, especially in Germany. It is extremely hard to find machines on route, while the collector market is huge.

I really doubt that that Stern is doing more sales on commercial than home use. But since this thread it is quite clear to me why Gary is emphasizing the commercial sales again and again as his main field of business - it is more or less the only "excuse" that pinheads here are bringing up regarding the quality problems Stern seems to be having.
Imagine the level of outrage if Stern would acknowledge something like 70-80% home user sales. All arguments in this thread defending Stern's quality level would be void immediately and all of a sudden home users would have a voice that counts.

Not buying send a pretty strong message don't you think?

Please see related market industry sales postings.

This is simply not accurate at the present time.

Stern continues to modify their production process and business model to meet market needs and generate acceptable levels of profit margin from private owners AND operators. Substantially better than BLY/WMS/GTB ever did.

The one thing that is hurting commercial sales:

Stern is pricing themselves right out of the overseas market again, based on current states of economy. It should not be a surprise that games that initally were programmed for international sales where redirected and end up in USA home use. Such is what occurred with my MET PM I bought NIB. It was a Canadian export returned to the US, due to inability to sell and provided "distributor to distributor" trade.

That's true. And as people who read my posts know, I often do.

If the percentage of home buyers DOUBLED from last October, that is some insane market upheaval.

So personally, I'm waiting until I hear that number directly from Gary's mouth.

He does the same speech at every Expo, trade show, ect, so it wont be long.......

It will just never happen.

Pinsiders buy games they've never even seen or played.

So the Verge was told 80%. I personally am suspect of that as I believe Stern never releases any accurate figures about anything to the public at large

“There are more collectors today,” says Mr. Stern, 67 and CEO of the company. He estimates that 80 percent of his company's domestic sales go into homes. “More people are getting into the hobby of it.”

Reposting this from earlier in the thread. This also corroborates the huge increase in the home versus operator ownership ratio.

I'm surprised people are shocked by this. Though on the rise a bit now, we've all seen how pinball and other arcade location play has been dwindling for years to the point of almost non-existence.

I posted two separate sources, one with Jody Dankberg stating 80%, and another interview with Gary Stern himself stating 80%.

Here they are again:

http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/16/3793274/stern-inside-one-of-the-last-pinball-factories-in-the-world

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20130216/ISSUE01/302169976/the-next-thing-for-our-digital-age-pinball

I doubt it. They would run an end-around and slash prices until people started buying again and REALLY cheap out on manufacturing to maintain net profits. Even Ops who abandoned pins might be tempted back.

No, the collectors have brought this on everyone by coughing up inexplicable sums of money for a pinball machine.

In the big picture some delamination around inserts is not something that will appreciably affect prices unless it continues for a LONG time. They will fix the problem and move on. In 6 months it will be totally forgotten by everyone except the owners who couldn't get over it.

IMO.

Just stating 80% doesn't tell you the actual numbers it's based on so it doesn't really tell you much more than confirm the fact the home buyers account for the majority of sales.

Location pinball for the most part is dead so it's good for Stern that there are so many home buyers.

People are going to believe what they want to believe regardless of how much evidence you present to them. Unfortunate it is.

TRUE_(resized).jpg

Just got into it a few months ago and love it.

So.. you think Gary Stern is lying to online business publications about where there revenue comes from, just to make home users feel "special" ?

Since everyone around here likes to state Gary is all about thinking of the operator first, wouldn't it be the other way around? Wouldn't he want to state that operators represent 80% of the business so that *OPs* could feel more special? With your logic, even if it was true, clearly the correct move for a business owner selling products in a niche market would be to make their #1 customers - in this case, collectors - feel "special".

Why anyone is denying that home collectors are keeping Stern and even JJP in business is a bit crazy. There is a simple explanation for it-the generation of 80's and 90's kids who loved playing pinball have now grown up can now afford to own and collect pins for their own private usage now. If it wasn't for this happening, there's a good chance Stern would be out of business and JJP would have never raised the capital necessary to start their business and subsequently keep their doors open today. Same goes for Heighway, Dutch Pinball, Spooky, etc. I doubt their business plans were proposed to their investors with the idea of success coming primarily from commercial amusement operators.

In fact, back in 2009 when Gary Stern had to seek an investment firm (Hagerty Peterson & Co. LLC) they helped triple their revenue - this was by bringing in the idea of multiple models, some even geared towards the low end consumer market (Amazon, Costco versions, etc). That didn't work out too well- but what did was the introduction of Limited Edition models, and cheaper Pro models for OPs. The LE models are their most profitable versions, primarily geared towards you guessed it- the HOU collector.

Let's face it - collectors are what is keeping the hobby alive, and how Gary Stern can keep signing the paychecks for his employees. There is no sense to debate that at this point in time.

Like I said... a couple years ago GS said 70% of sales went to home buyers. I was surprised by how high the percentage was and also by GS finally stating it. Word was he didn't want to upset the route guys.

Maybe this is a stupid question, but how does Stern know this % at all with any certainty?

Do distributors report this info to Stern?