Here's what you do ! Have CPR make the play fields and have RON KRUZMAN over see all quality control and clear coating.

Any reply from distributor or Stern, OP?

That would be nice. I wonder how faster cpr could make play fields if they were given all the artwork.

I don't think they could make 55 per day.

rd

Then they would be near perfect.....and roll out at the rate of one playfield every 6 months.

CPR charges $600 for a playfield and CCC charges $200

Add on Kruzes clearcoat, international shipping, and you would be talking about (at retail) a $2500 price increase.

Itd be nice if there wasn't the PPS fee added on, that 20% adds up for letting them remake those pf's

Vid, on the "This Flippin Podcast" I'm 99% sure TaylorVA said that the GBLE unboxed at SFGE didn't have insert ghosting out of the box, but within a day, did.

Does the ghosting start to happen once the ball has impact on the playfield? Or is it environmental factors (humidity? Air temp?)?

Waxing a new playfield never hurts.

They have done Sexy Girl, Miss World, F2K, TA and other non PPS titles and they were all still very expensive.

"It just happens".

I've got NOS Williams playfields with ghosting, and they've never been in a machine. They have lived their lives in factory box.

I've had brand new reproduction playfields with it.

And I've got games that get played monthly with it.

If it starts, it usually stops all by itself in a few weeks of play.

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If you never want to see ghosting, order your game with an un-clearcoated playfield, and use a plastic overlay.

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I always thought it was odd that CV was very prone to ghosting, is there a reason that game seems much more likely to have ghosting issues than other Williams games from the same time frame?

Yeah Churchill's screw ups... CV came like that right out of the box and NGG has a small bit of it too. Both were done in the same time frame and I bought both NIB on closeout so I actually have first hand experience with that issue. I still have both machines too.

I'm a fan of anyone who is making pinball machines - period. Major kudos to Stern who kept the industry alive when everyone else bailed. Thank you!

With an industry resurgence and greater focus on capitalizing on profitability by ownership, sadly they're losing their way. Issues with play fields, cabinet decals, clear coats, mechs and dings to cabinets when opening fresh out of box is all quality control. But don't fool yourself in thinking someone on the assembly line needs glasses. The blame lands on management. These are "acceptable" defects Stern is aware of and deciding to ship regardless. They're playing the math betting we won't complain en mass and many just accept the issues (like some who posted previously in this thread).

They're betting many OPs may not care of a ding since they are throwing it out in public anyway - where dings happen. So figuring in their math, OPs have more tolerance (even though their paying more for same product).

Some of the issues I've read on other posts I will say are us picky home owner/collectors. I've met some real anal collectors over the years in this hobby and some have such high expectations, they should only buy from HEP. But like the OP has shared, this is unacceptable at the new price points. When you raise the price, the customer raises the expectations. You have a responsibility to meet them, especially now that there are competitive options.

I hope Stern reads and properly acts. It's awesome you have manufacturing in the US. Don't tarnish the "made in the US" brand by lowering "acceptable" thresholds. I'm confident they'll make things right, but I hope they change processes to be proactive rather than reactive.

I think the obvious answer is CV was traumatized by Poopaduce during it's formative years.

A CV playfield may have been manufactured and screened by possibly 4 different companies. Then sent for clearcoating at Sun Process.

Just like Chipotle, with too many variables in the supply chain, it is difficult to pinpoint the source of the problem.

It'll stop once all the clear has separated off the improperly prepared surface.

It'll flake away (and take your insert art with it) once the edges break and the piece of clear is no longer connected to the rest of the clearcoat.

It is not standard, and not acceptable. It is a faulty clearcoat.

This below is exactly what you're dealing with when you see a ghosted insert..

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A buddy was asking about ghosting when he was visiting Saturday... I tried to find an example to show him, but the only game I have with any issues is NGG.. a couple inserts have a tiny bit of ghosting at the edges. My old CV had ghosting around most of the inserts. Aside from the crummy CV/NGG/CP playfields WMS got, there hasn't been any other major ghosting issues, til now.

Vid, you need to put together "Ghost buster" kits of syringes and small amounts of two part automotive clear. I smell a business opportunity!

I'm not sure what you are advocating.. we all know it CAN happen and does across all kinds of examples. That doesn't change the desirability of the situation. Nor does it change that for many examples, the problem DOES NOT happen. Meaning.. when given a choice, we prefer the games that have NOT succumb to this.

The fact it does happen across many examples doesn't change that examples that do have the condition are treated as having flaws and are priced and valued accordingly. It doesn't change that people often spend much time and money to correct or cover the issue.

That doesn't change that people DESIRE games where this has not happened.

You keep repeating facts... that while true... don't really speak to the situation at hand.

Yup. I'm sure you can find some odd examples of many titles but the only ones I currently own that have this issue are CV and NGG. They haven't got any worse but I rarely get to play them. I *did* look over all my other machines once this thread got going however.. it made me nervous

Sorry, that is not at all true.

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The insert ghosts because of the movement of the wood surrounding the plastic.

Wood expands and contracts at a certain rate, and the plastic at another.

The acrylic formulation chosen for inserts is close, but obviously not a perfect match.

The insert is touching 3 different layers of Maple (even more layers in the Birch playfields). Each layer in a sheet of plywood is bonded to the next at a 90* against the grain. The top and bottom layers, the grain runs longways. Every other layer, the grain runs 90* the other direction. Thus quality plywood always has an odd number of layers.

This makes for a very stable plank of wood.

Maple wood needs to dry until it's moisture content reaches below 7% to be glued into plywood. That's pretty dry as far as wood moisture goes. Otherwise the plys won't glue together.

Although using layers of wood is good for general stability, it does introduce variables because each layer of wood has natural differences.

The face plys are usually graded for visual quality (you would not want a big black knot in the middle of your shooter lane), but the inner plys can have many defects patched.

The thicker and harder the clearcoat is, the more likely that the moving wood will pull the clearcoat off of the edges of the inserts.

In games before clearcoating, the thin film of Lacquer would simply crack as the Maple shrank back, leaving a valley between the insert and the wood.

If you guys read what the op's most recent post is...
He says that the inserts seems to moving around causing the clear to ghost .
To me it sounds more like an insert issue .

I think what he is saying is that will be the END result after a whole lot of play. The loose clear will eventually chip and crack away from the surface.

I don't know what you want me to say about it then. I can only tell you why it happens.

Obviously, nobody wants it to happen. I don't need to say that.

There are many causes for this to happen.
As Vid mentioned improper curing time of moisture of the wood blanks.
Misrouting of the insert and bezeling.
Impropering gluing.
Even the inserts or playfields themselves being warped before installation of components.
All this should be taken into account before the clear coating is even applied.
If people wonder why it takes so long for CPR to produce playfields even after they have all the parts, this should be provide a better understanding of the complexity of the process.
Remember, their production runs are quite small in comparison to Stern or JJP.
When you are mass producing playfields in excessive preparation of 1000s of machine in bulk preparation, it is hard to scrutinize the playfields into "gold", "silver", and "bronze" categories, BEFORE they hit the factory floor.
Sometimes playfields have been in storage of month if not years.
No one really knows how closely Stern is QA playfields before construction, but that is critical step.
Not everyone shines lights through every playfield insert in the front AND behind to inspect for spider webbing, microcracks, ghosting, and the rest of the common issues that occur from either time, construction, or quality of components.
Even things like torsion twisting of the playfields during construction, or use of "cheater bars" can cause ghosting to appear prematurely, but will never show up until a playfield is placed on a rotisserie for its "spin cycle".

Playfield construction and clear coating has always been a science, as much as an art.

He said that was "EXACTLY what you are dealing with" with a ghosted insert. That is not true. The clearcoat separating from the basecoat on a car is often a failure of the UV protection component in the clear. Not at all what we are dealing with playfield wood movement.

I have an AFM with ghosting on many of the inserts. After 25 years none of the clear has completely lifted from the inserts (I'm not saying that could not happen, because it sometimes does on the hotdogs on STTNG).

There is nothing I can do to prevent or fix it, other than inject some clear under the ghost. It does not bother me enough to take any action against it.

I've had my CV PF restored by the no. 1 company for these jobs in Europe.

He told me that the only way to make CV stop ghosting for sure is to remove all inserts, remove all the glue holding them & then re-glue them. Of course they all need to be repainted after this treatment.
It seems that CV & TOTAN used a glue that chemically reacts with the clear, they dissolve each other to put it simple, allowing air to enter under the clear.

From what I've seen of the ghosting of newer Sterns my best (and at least kind of educated) guess is that they are not giving the insert glue enough time to dry. On all pins I've seen with ghosting the inserts obviously moved after PF was cleared. Would make sense as Stern is probably demanding much more and much more different pf's from their suppliers to keep up with the pace of the new factory. PFs need to be finished faster and since the clear needs some time to dry to not cause obvious defects (PF top assemblies "sinking" into the clear and leaving marks) the only opportunity to save time is before the clearcoating.
But I'm just guessing...

The glue would have to be dry for the playfield to enter the 24" drum sander.

The sander flattens the concave inserts so they are 100% flush with the surface of the playfield.

If the glue was not dry the inserts would lift under the abrasive.

But your posts come across as 'Why are you worried about it... it happens everywhere'

Sorry if my posts read like that to you.

I'm more about facts than any emotional answers.

My girlfriend says I can often be very emotionally detached, so it's not just you.

Hell no.

I already get 200 emails every day of people asking questions that are already addressed in one of my guides.

I can't imagine having to do tech support involving Pinsiders and syringes.

Lol!

Well, at least the "problem" users would probably "go away" once they stab themselves and accidently inject 2PAC.

I have to say I often admire your patience on those threads when dealing with folks who have obviously never even tried to read the material prior to asking questions.

I doubt I'd do so well...

I thought you didn't play on "my team." Now I'm very confused.

Maybe it's like old time football - he plays both sides? More action that way

I'm always game to run a train, goddam.....

Sorry vid, but that doesn't explain why these clearcoats are failing after only a few weeks. These games haven't even seen one winter yet. Your "explanation" might hold water if we didn't have 20 years' worth of properly manufactured playfields to observe and compare against.

Fact is, ghosting has not been a problem on new playfields since CV (17 years ago), and even those games took a while to develop the issue. Fact is, insert ghosting on a new clearcoat is a manufacturing defect. This is why WMS tested and tested back in the 80s, and put dummy inserts in their games to KEEP testing throughout the 90s. Getting 2PAC to stick to plastic is tricky, but possible. All the Stern games up to this point have been fine.

Got any pics of these playfields? So far only pic you've posted is that one MM playfield with a couple hundred thousand plays on it...

Eeeeeew

Here's a picture of Vid on Pinside trying to explain what his decades of experience, knowledge, and deep understanding of the manufacturing processes and the science behind them to people with none of those things citing their flawed anecdotal "evidence"

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And here is a pic of vid explaining to his girlfriend why he isn't as emotional as she is.

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AFM is nortorious for insert ghosting; Caitlyn must shield his eyes.

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She does look a little manly in that pic huh?

They could print that, I used to do 200-300 7 colour prints in one day by myself.

Cutting, placing inserts, doing the undercoat... That's different.

You can see that the insert is not level with the wood, and has significant edge wear. Also appears the insert and wood have separated in the lower-right area. Exactly what you'd expect on a blown-out 20 year old game. Not what you'd expect on a brand new game. Still no justification for the ghosting we've seen on GB and SMVE.

Here is CPR actually silkscreening Space Shuttle to give you an idea of how long it takes them on an automated press:

And what did you learn?

It's dead level.

That's true.

The insert on AFM that gets the most wear is always the Hotdog, and then the one in the center of the pops.

The wood has shrank, and the plastic has not grown to fill in the gap. Williams used crap plastic, I guess.

So you wanted a picture of the ghosting on AFM, and now that you've got it, it's not enough for you?

Unbelievable.......

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Man, he really needs to optimize his workflow - he's wasting a ton of time grabbing and removing the playfields.

Has anybody with this issue had any reply back from distributor or Stern?