(Topic ID: 161795)

Hey Stern! Are you serious?


By mayuh

3 years ago



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There are 6558 posts in this topic. You are on page 17 of 132.
#801 3 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

I see dimpling on every game but NOT like some of these newer Sterns.

Nothing dimples like an old Bally.

1000s of those mother fnckers......

70s-dimples_(resized).jpg

#802 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Nothing dimples like an old Bally.
1000s of those mother fnckers......

How many plays on that one?

18
#803 3 years ago

Of all the bitching that occurs regarding pinball, play field dimpling has to be the absolute DUMBEST bitch of all.

Stfu and play your pins. If you get all butt hurt over excessive dimpling then yank it out and send it off to get repaired and re cleared.

Of all things it's not the end of the world!

#804 3 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Of all the bitching that occurs regarding pinball, play field dimpling has to be the absolute DUMBEST bitch of all.
Stfu and play your pins. If you get all butt hurt over excessive dimpling then yank it out and send it off to get repaired and re cleared.
Of all things it's not the end of the world!

The dimples don't bother me much anymore.

#805 3 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Of all the bitching that occurs regarding pinball, play field dimpling has to be the absolute DUMBEST bitch of all.
Stfu and play your pins. If you get all butt hurt over excessive dimpling then yank it out and send it off to get repaired and re cleared.
Of all things it's not the end of the world!

SIR, YES SIR.

#806 3 years ago
Quoted from newpinbin:

How many plays on that one?

Meter said 1700

-1
#807 3 years ago

Not directed at you James but you are a little Ocd which is good because tha SM I got from you is a beauty!

Very low dimpling on the dimple meter

#808 3 years ago

No problem. It's called humor, argh argh.

Heh, after all the shit that has gone on in my world lately I need it. Im just happy it wasn't worse.

And yes, I am very OCD about my games.

-1
#809 3 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

No problem. It's called humor, argh argh.
Heh, after all the shit that has gone on in my world lately I need it. Im just happy it wasn't worse.
And yes, I am very OCD about my games.

Yep, you def did right thing with your poor dog

#810 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

That is Pinside in a nutshell.
A steaming pile of bitching, disrespectful, menstruating manboys who never grew up.

We spent thousands of dollars on elaborate minature theme parks under glass...

...Of course we're manboys! If we grew up pinball would die overnight!

Seriously though, it's one thing to criticize a thing or a company, and another to initiate attacks on a person.

I don't get the thinking that we "shouldn't be discussing" these issues people are seeing with their NIB games at all. It's basically a public service. If I'm in the market for a product, it's nice to see what other folks have to say about their purchasing experience.

Whether or not a particular issue warrants corrective action from Stern is a matter of opinion. What's just fine to you might not be okay with someone else. It's a matter of degrees. You might be okay with the ghosting that's been shown in this thread, but at some point something would warrant you going back to Stern for remediation. And if you truly think "if it's not in the Stern warranty there is no recourse so don't bother asking", I'm pretty sure most people would reconsider their purchases in the future when they started seeing people getting burned on unsupported products.

AFAIK nobody has definitively posted that Stern wasn't going to take care of them yet, so it's wait and see. Historically, it sounds like they generally do.

#811 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

No matter how hard a clear coat is applied to a wooden substrate, the wood below will dimple because steel is harder than wood.
-
Or if that does not make sense to you, think of it this way:
A clearcoat is 4 mils thick (.004").
If you took a piece of .004" thick steel, bonded it to the playfield and played a game of pinball, you would get a ton of dimples instantly. Thin steel is no match for a 1.06" diameter pinball.
Even your car hood, made of .06" thick steel (that's 15X thicker than a clearcoat), can not survive a pinball being dropped on it without denting.

I'm not a "dimple denier". I'm just saying sometimes it's more pronounced than others, and in some cases IMO is unacceptable. For instance. I had a STLE and so did a friend. Mine had some minor dimples, but otherwise was pretty glassy. In less than 100 plays his looked like a flabby fat guy after acupuncture.

Any of the Stern games I own look pretty glassy, but if you shine a light on them you can see the dimples. To me, that's acceptable. However, if it looks like hell without really looking for it - that's not a good playfield.

10
#812 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I'm not a "dimple denier"

I love these forums sometimes.

#813 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Meter said 1700

Would have expected a lot more then that.

#814 3 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

If we grew up pinball would die overnight!

I get the feeling not many here grew up around pinball period. This is a whole different breed from what I remember.

#815 3 years ago

That was supposed to be a joke...

13
#816 3 years ago

Why, when I was a kid we played pinball with an onion on our hip, course that was the style in those days...simpler times, friendly people just pinballin. kids these days with there fancy D-M-D's and "clear" coats...we didn't even have coats! just potato sacks if we were lucky. always a complainin and a fussin bout their $8000 game that has ghosting inserts...everybody knows they've a been a ghostin since 88. get off my lawn

11
#817 3 years ago

Another thing that has to be taken into consideration is that on a forum like this is that all your going to hear is negative, maybe I should start a thread "Got my first NIB and I am extremely happy", but what fun would that be

10
#818 3 years ago
Quoted from Jaybird815:

Another thing that has to be taken into consideration is that on a forum like this is that all your going to hear is negative, maybe I should start a thread "Got my first NIB and I am extremely happy", but what fun would that be

Just got my NIB ST Pro on Monday and I'm extremely happy. Been too busy playing to get the magnifying glass out and look for imperfections.

#819 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Meter said 1700

Probably rolled over

#820 3 years ago

The best way to get a sense of the size of the issue is with a carefully-worded poll. I did one a few months ago asking about out-of-box issues, and I was surprised to see that over 90% had no issues or only minor (easily fixed) issues. I suspect the same would be true of cosmetic issues. It's no consolation to the folks who have the issues, but at least it gives everyone a better sense of the chance that they'll have a problem.

#821 3 years ago
Quoted from Jaybird815:

"Got my first NIB and I am extremely happy", but what fun would that be

Got my first NIB about 3 weeks ago now (ECLE WOZ)... Ok, not a Stern but still extremely happy. Looking forward to doing it again soon, maybe a Stern game next but wouldn't hesitate to buy another JJP game either. It just depends on whats on the market that I find compelling and fun.

#822 3 years ago
Quoted from Jaybird815:

I should start a thread "Got my first NIB and I am extremely happy"

Of course you are! It actually arrived. People need to start lowering their expectations around here.

-1
#823 3 years ago

Still no pics of the inserts when lit.

Anyone?

How bad is it?

#824 3 years ago

I'll post them when I'm back home...

#825 3 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

So again:
The bottom line is that Stern is still producing COMMERCIAL GRADE machines. If those machines are able to accept money, play games, and function as they were intended, then peeling stickers on the cabinet, dimples on the play field, and ghosting inserts aren't factors that Stern likely deems "important". You may disagree, and you may stop buying NIB -that's up to you.
It does not mean that Stern doesn't care about customers, or doesn't support their products.

You and I sure have a different take on COMMERCIAL GRADE... To me, it implies the ability to take a beating in public without failing. If these were commercial grade, they'd be able to go 10 years in home use with little more than an occasional wipedown.

They have cheesy lighting retainers and wiring that look like something from a string of Chinese made Christmas lights. Spotlight bulbs fall out, trough switches vibrate loose and auto-launchers that bend and barely send the ball out of the shooter lane after a hundred games. I love playing my two Stern machines, but they're are anything but commercial grade. They're lightweight home-use toys.

#826 3 years ago
Quoted from TOK:

I love playing my two Stern machines, but they're are anything but commercial grade.

You should put some out on route, and let us know how they do.

Mine hold up extremely well, far better than any other companies 'commercial' machines.

#827 3 years ago

I have some basic questions, for consideration of owners that they should ask themself in hindsight.

Why did owners buy Stern machines, and not buy a different manufacturer?
Why did owners buy NIB machines?
What were owners expectations of what a NIB game can and cannot do?
Did owners actually read warranties?
What experience do people have with games as an operator?
What experience do people have as an a technician in maintaining games on routes or in their own home?
What experience are people aware in the development lifespan of a pinball machine is "in the wild" and what ultimately it is designed for?

Many of these questions and more should be considered before deciding to enter into this hobby.
Knowledge helps dispel many myths and dysfunctions of understanding.

The current lifecycle of a pinball "collector" is roughly 2-3 years.
Yes, it is that short.

#828 3 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Stfu and play your pins.

DAMN!!!!

ok

#829 3 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

I have some basic questions, for consideration of owners.
Why did owners buy Stern machines, and not buy a different manufacturer?
Why did owners buy NIB machines?
What experience do people have with games as an operator?
What experience do people have as an a technician in maintaining games on routes or in their own home?
What experience are people aware in the development lifespan of a pinball machine is "in the wild" and what ultimately it is designed for?
Many of these questions and more should be considered before deciding to enter into this hobby.
Knowledge helps dispel many myths and dysfunctions of understanding.
The current lifecycle of a pinball "collector" is roughly 2-3 years.

I'm just curious, how are you coming to that "2-3 years" number? No way to measure that with hundreds, if not thousands, of NIB pins sold each year...I get your point about people not knowing what they are getting themselves into and quickly leaving the hobby for something safer that requires less maintenance, but still no way to measure that number.

#830 3 years ago
Quoted from LadySlingshot:

I'm just curious, how are you coming to that "2-3 years" number? No way to measure that with hundreds, if not thousands, of NIB pins sold each year...I get your point about people not knowing what they are getting themselves into and quickly leaving the hobby for something safer that requires less maintenance, but still no way to measure that number.

2-3 year time period is being gauged roughly from discussions with multiple dealers/brokers/distributors since the latest "revival" which really started around 2010.
About 5 years worth of market sales data trending.
The last "drought" ended again in 2009 from the standpoint of sales of NIB machines, but used machines "hovered", and "Top 10" titles continued their incremental creep upwards.
What is being seen by secondary sales marketers is the "sell out" of owner after that period for a multitude of reasons, including debt, boredom, maintenance, or wanting to pursue a different hobby once they realize that in the long term more money/effort will be required to MAINTAIN their games, which they never wanted to do in the first place.
These four factors are the most common.
The number of "purists" are dwindling from early periods in the last 30 years.
Enthusiasm exists, but there is only so much disposable income, especially from a majority of buyers in their late 30s and early 40s.
Enthusiasm does not always equate to home sales.
Not everybody is willing to dedicate entire portions of their homes to pinball machines.
This is also a latest "fad" again, to be "hip" to own a pinball machine in their home, particularly owners in their 20s (that can afford one).
The demographics or sales of all markets are in the 30-40s (especially NIB), with some break in for those in 50-60s, but are much smaller.
For example, I rarely sell a machine now, and predominantly buy, if at all, and as I have no room (at the present), place in storage, but I among some are exceptions, as I already have "pinball collection" established from the 1990s.
Most new collectors just want to "fill the space as quickly as possible".

A primary basis is that marketers are buying entire collections for resale at one time, and are dealing with the same people who bought the games (many times NIB) just a few years earlier.
Turnover on NIB HUO games purchased in the last 5 years is very high right now.
I cannot see the period extending much more right now, because the latest market "stall" is approaching based on price testing, quality, cost, state of economy, and the turnover of owners when they get bored of their machines.
Under 5 years or so, based on state of events.
Operators and private owners will "balk", and companies like Stern and JJP will be competing against their own older titles.
Operators are going to hold onto what they have between it takes to long to recoup initial cost, and the routes are not bringing in enough money to offset.
New owners will simply not buy, because the game have overreached the market sales in comparison to the economy.
This means less secondary games in the market.
I generally do not have a problem finding anything built after 1999.
Games before 1995 are getting trickier as always as they have been "used up" and the quality games are disappearing.
Remember, I am a "hard core" collector and do not accept player condition games, but at the same time do not "invest" in HEP, as this is incredibly wasteful since I can do the work myself.
The basis to see the change is when LE models hit close to $10K from Stern, MRSP, not the "preorder resale resales".

This should be helpful.
The best thing an owner can do to help themselves avoid the "NIB OMG", is reach out and contact other collectors before buying, even being able to test nearly brand new games in others collections.
Go find a local distributor and potentially evaluate floor models like operators do.
I am not a fan of buying game titles, I have not personally playtested and evaluated for reliability, code, and construction.
Complaining about a game you bought sight unseen, but never played beforehand, it is just nonsensical to me.
I realize this is not necessarily the set of conditions in this thread, but it happens often at the present moment.
Networking will keep individual costs down, and they will have more opportunity to be educated before making mistakes, and more likely to stay in the hobby.

#831 3 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

2-3 year time period is being gauged roughly from discussions with multiple dealers/brokers/distributors since the latest "revival" which really started around 2010.
The last "drought" ended again in 2009 from the standpoint of sales of NIB machines, but used machines "hovered", and "Top 10" titles continued their incremental creep upwards.
What is being seen by secondary sales marketers is the "sell out" of owner after that period for a multitude of reasons, including debt, boredom, or wanting to pursue a different hobby.
The number of "purists" are dwindling from early periods in the last 30 years.
Enthusiasm exists, but there is only so much disposable income, especially from a majority of buyers in their late 30s and early 40s.
For example, I rarely sell a machine now, and predominantly buy, and if I have no room, place in storage, but I among some are exceptions, as I already have "pinball collection".
A primary basis is that marketers are buying entire collections for resale at one time, and are dealing with the same people who bought the games (many times NIB) just a few years earlier.
I cannot see the period extending much more at this time, because the latest market "stall" is approaching based on price testing, quality, cost, state of economy, and the turnover of owners when they get bored of their machines.
Operators and private owners will "balk", and companies like Stern and JJP will be competing against their own older titles.
The basis to see the change is when LE models hit close to $10K from Stern, MRSP, not the "preorder resale resales".
Hopefully, this is helpful.

Thank you very helpful.

#832 3 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

I have some basic questions, for consideration of owners.
Why did owners buy Stern machines, and not buy a different manufacturer?
Why did owners buy NIB machines?
What experience do people have with games as an operator?
What experience do people have as an a technician in maintaining games on routes or in their own home?
What experience are people aware in the development lifespan of a pinball machine is "in the wild" and what ultimately it is designed for?
Many of these questions and more should be considered before deciding to enter into this hobby.
The current lifecycle of a pinball "collector" is roughly 2-3 years.

Ill play;

1)Stern were the only NIB games for over a decade.So really no choice for about 13 years.JJP is new and somewhat unproven,TH isn't exactly setting the scene on fire.Need a larger sample size from JJP(6 titles)?I guess.Again I think because its new.

2)Owners: some people just want new.I hear it all the time,on here and elsewhere."gimme new".OPs buy for the route.Need the latest title .It has NOTHING to do w/theme,designer,all the stuff home owners look for.Just get a FRESh title at the spot.Anything can be new,that doesn't make it better.Personally NIB is out of the question for me.Im not spending 8K on a DataEast/Sega/Stern product that might never be finished and Im damn sure not waiting 2 years + for anything at those prices.No fuckin way.I really feel that NIB experience sucks right now.Unless your an op,then its necessary

3)Im not an op,but I have 2 close friends who are.Im pretty close to them and they will ask my opinion on new titles.Not that it effects their decisions.One op buys every new Stern for his route and he even will route LEs which is supercool.The other is a little more discerning regarding titles.He currently has a TH and GoT LE at the place right now.Ive helped them move,repair, track down parts,bring backpacks filled w/quarters to the bank.Whatever I can do,and I support their games on their route.They are my friends first,and my local ops second,but it gives me some perspective.

4)Lots of experience maintaining and helping w/fixes.I feel like I can maintain my collection efficiently.Willing to help out on the route if need be.

5) In the wild?coin box.Designed to make money!!!! and of course its fun to play pinball,thats how they wound up in homes.

Just one dudes take on stuff,obviously lots of ways to look at it,and everybody's gotta do what turns them on and what they need to do business(ops)wise.

#833 3 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Of course you are! It actually arrived. People need to start lowering their expectations around here.

hehe... I'll lower mine.... when the price does too!

#834 3 years ago

Fully lit inserts... Hard to take a pic - it's worse in real life (digi cameras aperture, contrast is different than our own logarithmic sight, that's why they are not fully red, etc.) But you get the idea...

image_(resized).jpeg
image_(resized).jpeg
image_(resized).jpeg
image_(resized).jpeg

#835 3 years ago

And where is the problem, exactly?

#836 3 years ago
Quoted from GreatBug:

And where is the problem, exactly?

There is a slight difference, but I think this is why Stern may not consider replacing a playfield and/or shipping out a replacement pin.

To me, the problem has been GROSSLY exaggerated and blown way out of proportion.

Can we get some other owners to post the very worst-possible pics of these ghosting inserts, when lit, please?

19
#837 3 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Can we get some other owners to post the very worst-possible pics of these ghosting inserts, when lit, please?

ehh... no one is debating the visual issue with ghosting. We all worry about ghosting because we know its a failure in the materials that ultimately just gets worse and leads to greater separation issues.

#838 3 years ago
Quoted from LadySlingshot:

I'm just curious, how are you coming to that "2-3 years" number? No way to measure that with hundreds, if not thousands, of NIB pins sold each year...I get your point about people not knowing what they are getting themselves into and quickly leaving the hobby for something safer that requires less maintenance, but still no way to measure that number.

I agree with Chris on this one.

#839 3 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

ehh... no one is debating the visual issue with ghosting. We all worry about ghosting because we know its a failure in the materials that ultimately just gets worse and leads to greater separation issues.

Exactly.

The inserts are moving up and down, creating/leaving an edge where the ball will start to chip away the clear. Once that is gone, wear will start...

Btw, I love the dimpled playfield. It means that the machine is awesome and is being played. Love to see way more dimples to a point were no individual dimples are noticeable

#840 3 years ago
Quoted from GreatBug:

And where is the problem, exactly?

The problem is that you can't picture it properly with a digicam. Our brain is too busy simplifying everything and therefore we only see certain things. Like good contrast. In this case it is bad. A digital photograph won't do justice here. Believe me it's bad.

On the topic of being extremely fooled by contrast and your own sight, you may want to see these few videos.


And worst of all:

#841 3 years ago
Quoted from mayuh:

The inserts are moving up and down

#842 3 years ago

Lit or unlit it's not about visual aspects. It's about an integrity aspect.

I'm sure Stern will make it right for buyers that have severe problems.

It just really sucks

#843 3 years ago
Quoted from TOK:

They have cheesy lighting retainers and wiring that look like something from a string of Chinese made Christmas lights.

Like this?:

image_(resized).jpeg

#844 3 years ago

Yes, just like that. Except under the playfield!

#845 3 years ago

Stern took a bunch of games in to look at issues. They think they know what the problem is and are going to release a statement to the public. Relax

#846 3 years ago
Quoted from shawngg:

They think they know what the problem is and are going to release a statement to the public.

ba5d2529fc90d6b1d893bfec18328fd3db59c951.jpeg_(resized).jpg

#847 3 years ago
Quoted from shawngg:

Stern took a bunch of games in to look at issues. They think they know what the problem is and are going to release a statement to the public. Relax

At $8K a pop, they better!

#848 3 years ago

Game manufacturers used this lighting designs with these sockets and wiring for playfields before, not just backglass panels. People just don't remember them.

It was either Inder or another company.
This really is not "going backwards".

GTB tried when under Premier, but it was rejected in the early 90s.

6803 Bally used them I believe as well, but I cannot remember which game, as most were "green sockets".

"Staples and sockets" (non removable) were even used in 1990s by AGC for GI, even though it was out of favor at the time.

The IDC light sockets concept and associated wiring design were standards of most varieties from 1977-1999 in ALL SS backglass panels, EMs are a little rudimentary, but usually are thicker wire gauge. The quality is not highly advanced from LED boards today, which are very cheaply made with singles.
The same sockets sometimes got used for replacements by operators and techs for 80-90s games. They work fine, and the quality is acceptable. Not sure what the problem is here, industry standard, granted their were better options (ie MOLEX).

The old "green bulb socket boards" do have exceptional reliability and easily repaired, but are higher cost for manufacture.

Not sure what people are expecting here with playfields now?

Would owners rather have GI braid and staples?
IDC connector bulb sockets (as shown)?
Old green boards back with "plug in" LEDs?
Florescent light tubes?
LEDs strips that cost $10, made in China?
Cheap LED boards that are not worth being repaired in many cases?

I guess I cannot see the comparison.
If you want a game made like a tank, make whole game out of steel, and raise the cost by another $2000.
It is not really going to help the market in sales.

#849 3 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

Lit or unlit it's not about visual aspects. It's about an integrity aspect.
I'm sure Stern will make it right for buyers that have severe problems.
It just really sucks

They seem to from my dealings so far.

#850 3 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

I have some basic questions, for consideration of owners that they should ask themself in hindsight.
Why did owners buy Stern machines, and not buy a different manufacturer?
Why did owners buy NIB machines?
What were owners expectations of what a NIB game can and cannot do?
Did owners actually read warranties?
What experience do people have with games as an operator?
What experience do people have as an a technician in maintaining games on routes or in their own home?
What experience are people aware in the development lifespan of a pinball machine is "in the wild" and what ultimately it is designed for?
Many of these questions and more should be considered before deciding to enter into this hobby.
Knowledge helps dispel many myths and dysfunctions of understanding.
The current lifecycle of a pinball "collector" is roughly 2-3 years.
Yes, it is that short.

You are waaaay over thinking this. It's pinball, not the stock market.

People buy Stern because stern has been making absolutely stellar titles in recent years. Some people don't like Stern - that's their choice and they have the freedom to buy/play what they want. Plenty of these buyers can afford to buy NIB - whether it fits in your value system or wallet. Some Stern buyers like to buy NIB because they want to. They aren't just "Stern fanboys who do not know how to change a fuse, only buy games NIB, and have no concept of the industry." (As you stated on your pinside page). Believe it or not, there are buyers that want recently released games in their home. They like them, they like their modern rule sets, they like the themes. Amazingly, many of these buyers also buy older DMDs and classics... Which they love playing. Some of these buyers buy HEP because they value his work and don't mind paying for it.

Also, tons of collectors - new and old - know how to work on their own games and love working on their games.

Plenty of new collectors that have entered the game in the 5 years or so are astutely aware of modern pricing and trends. They understand the market and are still willing to be collectors in it. Many of these collectors love learning and their understanding of the market can be just as sharp as collectors of 10+ yrs.

You absolutely do not to be an operator, former operator, or technician to enter this hobby. If you weren't any of those, your value as a collector, player, or pinball enthusiasts isn't any less than someone that has been an op or tech. In fact, in some cases, ops are so dysfunctional and lacking in their desire and/or interest in keeping a game clean and playing, that games are literally junked and trashed at their locations. There are some ops that know far less about keeping a game operating than many typical collectors.

This notion that the average life span of a pinball collector is 2-3 years is completely unfounded. A statement like that needs some numbers behind it. Not just some stories from resellers that are applied to the greater collecting community at large.

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