Hot Hand was before clearcoating, so you will never see one with ghosting (unless somebody clearcoated it later).

It usually stops by itself.

But there is always some risk in any product made of wood.

I don't blame you for not wanting to buy. If potential ghosting bothers you - don't buy any game after 1988.

Well, I had a couple issues with it, but figured it would be better to just take it up with the distributor or Stern themselves. Which I did. I also got the feeling if 100 other people all the sudden came up with the same problem that many may not have noticed in the first place, it would in no way have helped mine get resolved. And really with the warranty the way it is written, they didn't have to do squat.

The learning experience is that these are not covered like luxury items you might buy. So, it's take what you get or handle any defects with the manufacturer with kit gloves and they just might look past the warranty. But whining, blaming, threatening, or making a big deal about it on a public forum won't go far to getting your own problem resolved.

I'm not so worried about the "potential" for ghosting. I think my 23 year old TZ will be fine if it hasn't shown any problems yet. Not too concerned about the little bit that's on my RFM either. It probably won't get much worse.

I would be very concerned if my 2 week old game showed the amount of ghosting in the previous picture.

The thicker the clearcoat (like on new games), the more likely there could be ghosting.

So yes, do not buy any new games.

You will not enjoy them.

Vid, does having a void between the clear and the top of the insert make the clear over that area more prone to damage like chipping or cracking?

If everyone on here that has made the statement, " cancel my order" actually went through with it, I would think Stern would take notice. I can't see a business that has barely, and only recently arisen from the dead by (supposedly) targeting the private sector, would sit back and allow QC errors to pile fresh dirt on the grave.

Here are my 2008 TSPP and LOTR LE. No mylar in shooter lanes. LOTR 1500 plays. TSPP 2000 plays. No insert ghosting... even with the extra CC on LOTR
All my other Sterns have no ghosting in the inserts but mylar in shooter lanes as I could see the CC being damaged after 50 plays.

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I've owned many Sterns and I have never had ghosting on any of them, that's why I was so surprised by the recent photos of nearly new Stern games.

Same here. No ghosting on any Stern that I've owned, NIB or HUO.

FWIW, the inserts in my GOTLE are perfect. I just wanted to dispel the idea that this affects all GOTs. If you got a bad one, I'm sorry. I wish there was an easy fix.

Why don't factory games come with Mylar on the shooter lanes? It's the part that wears the most and mylar is like 5cents. Now that collectors are the main buyers, these type of simple protective measures seem mandatory.

Just played a Tron on location. Almost every insert was ghosted. Shrug.

Maybe he will sell it for cheap!

I'd buy it off the OP for $500. He's lucky to get that much considering....

His investment has probably already paid for itself.

Investment?

These are just big toys to me. Some might hold value some might not. The whole market could crash.....I'll still play my toys. If you don't want the risk of taking a "hit" on a NIB don't buy NIB. You can pretty much buy any game 2nd hand.....even long after they have stop being made. I've bought NIB and I've bought (way more) 2nd hand. I've had fun both ways but certainly the better "deals" were all 2nd hand.

Did any of my games have ghosting? Honestly I'm not sure. I really didn't notice and neither did any buyers. I looked at my newer Stern's after reading this thread (one was a NIB GOT pro)....no ghosting. But even if there was some or it gets some later on.....I'll just play it and get what I get out of it when/if I do ever sell or trade it.

And there you have it. If you want to get your money's worth out of any coin operated commercial machine, put it out there somewhere where it can make some money. If you take it home and set it on free play, don't expect a refund.

The older Stern games are just built better. More care, more time into each pin. Now, it's all about how many can we push out per month. The quality is gone.

My GOT pro looks as nice and plays just as well as my LOTR (purchased in 2003) did. No issues with my IMVE either.

How do you know that? Neither in your previously owned games nor the games you currently own does any modern Stern appear. The only way to truly know the quality of a newer Stern (2010-2016) is to own it at your house and play it every day for at least 4-6 months. Going to a friends house or the local arcade doesn't qualify.

The only modern Stern you have owned is IM. So you are basically saying that Stern quality sucks based off of one game you bought in 2010? Ludicrous.

Of course. But it's a bit boring if everyone opens threads titled "I played pinball today"...
In a forum you post if something unusual happens, not if you just play your machines like you do every day.

It's like pinball machine/playfield renovators reporting to have seen ghosting on almost every PF they work on. I wouldn't give any of my pins to renovation unless especially the PF wouldn't have problems. I've had one machine restored: CV which is known to have severe insert problems. Of course my playfield renovator has not seen the perfect PFs on all my other machines, he only gets the problematic ones which have e.g. ghosting. That does not mean every PF has ghosting.

You're right! Must be some reason I keep coming back for more....

"I read pinside today"

It's the Dr. Seuss effect: Pinside is a bit like reading "Did I ever tell you how lucky you are" - when i come back to my gameroom I feel really happy about the few minor problems my machines might have.

Private owners are not the main buyers at the current time in the market.
The majority remains with operators.
The balance has not tipped, YET.
I will explain why in a moment.
This is a false belief at the current moment, just like "old machines were built better" and other nonsensical statements.
Games have had insert problems, technical issues, and construction defects.
All games titles have some type of "Achilles heel".
All game titles have some types of metal fatigue problems if an area was skimped.
Dependent on manufacturer, some games were built better than others both physically and electronically, some worse.
For example, AGC had good boards, but terrible cabinets.
Playfields were fine, plastics were thin.
Late Model BLY/WMS had board issues with things like the watchdog circuit.
If you want to see games that are built like "combat battle tanks", buy an EM, different era, different construction, different materials.
Are they perfect?
No they are not, as they all rely on score reels, that if not properly maintained break down.
A lot of people just have not been around to see circumstances on any of the points I just offered, but want to throw up their hands with shaking fists after they bought their first machine of any type, saying "I hate pinball, I am never going to buy another machine again!"
I won't join to the picket line, most of us "old timers" don't have the patience for that crap, or trying to overcome the naysayers, it is is just tiring.

Dependent on the length of the latest pinball "revival" the tilt may continue to tip the other direction again back to operators, but people need to stick around and see what happens, not bail out, in the old "I hate pinball, I will never buy another game again" mentality, shaking their fists in the air. A lot will depend on the economy, and international sales are slowing down as price testing rose to unprecedented levels. Operators are balking overseas at games like JJP titles now, as it takes too damn long for them to recoup their investment on a $10k machine.

Current split is still above 60/40 in favor of operators, and private ownership is higher only because some production numbers are sold under the pretenses of LEs and higher numbers of Premiums to private ownership.
This makes the perception that "private ownership dominates the market".
A better statement is "private ownership directly affects the market for both new games and secondary sales".
Prior to 2007, there was no such animal offered by Stern (since 1999), unless you want to count the remake of Sega's HD.

Stern should "tighten their shot group" if they want private ownership to grow, that is not in dispute, but this is not the first time a manufacturer has "cut corners". BLY/WMS/GTB/ZAC/Inder and others all did it.
Operators in the past whined, sometimes for good reason, but there was little impact by the private collector community as they bought the games off of operators, or in some rare cases distributors.
Keep in mind, this devices were NEVER designed to last more than 3-5 years in a route environment originally, anything beyond that means a person took care of the game.

Mylar has been used repeatedly in the past on pinball machines, but is not a standard for shooter lanes as this is one of least concerning areas for operators regarding wear. Nobody $#@!ing cared.
Aftermarket products to protect games have been around for a LONG time, and in some cases were factory options like D1M.
Collectors know the shooter lane area is a "dirt magnet" due to grooving and keep it clean or refurbish accordingly with sandpaper and clear.

If you have problems, report them to Stern, promptly and courteously, you are becoming the "new wave" of operators.

According to Gary Stern private buyers ARE the main buyers in the market. It took him a while to finally state this publicly and when he did I was surprised at the figure. It was something like 70%. I don't have the quote but somebody else here will have it.
I *could* be wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but I remember this as he was always reluctant in the past to admit the operators were in decline.

The figure makes sense though... there's no more arcades, etc anymore and hardly any pins to be found in the wild whatsoever. Just a few spots to service the small group of true believers.

And saying earlier model pins are better built is hardly "nonsense". I'd say all my 90's WMS are better built than my Sterns... sharp screen printed cabs, plastics that are NOT pixellated like Stern's STILL are, real lighting and flashers in the backbox (not a sad tube), dual wound coils, metal arches with actual art, etc.

I just got a TWD and love the play, rules, sound and lighting but the build components aren't quite there. Plastic arch, cab decals and pixillated plastics. Still solid and impressive and quite reliable though. Sound and lighting have definitely seen improvement over the years... as you would expect with tech advances.

Big improvement from the roller Coaster Tycoon days.

There are over 600+ pinball machines in a 35 mile square area here, routed.
The new time is "barcade" not arcade, and they are thriving.
There are also three "museums", not counting anything in California, with between 30-80 machines each.
It's HUGE.
The highest level of independent venues since 1994.
Operators returned to the market in late 2009 and are rapidly going again, fast.
The strongest spike has occurred 2010 through 2015.
This has occurred all over the country and overseas.

Alexandria, VA (your location) coincided with Baltimore on "Pinball Locations" shows over 220+ machines. If it's outdated, so be it, but it gives a baseline to at least go look. I live on the west coast, so I cannot validate. However, I would not call your location a "dead zone". Feel free to play some pinball out in the wild, if you have time. I generally don't, right now.

There are so many misconceptions about the realities of the market it just spins into a maelstrom of a Wizard of Oz tornado.
There are a lot of people laughing right now watching these posts on PinSide.
Stern is reading these posts.
They should be concerned, and looking into issues regarding playfield quality, again, immediately.

The majority of sales of pro models from sales remain in operators hands.
Part of what you hearing is the Stern advertising campaign to promote sales.
Stern was TARGETING private ownership, they are not stupid, as they saw the potential.
They don't need to do that for operators, who will buy the game if they feel it worthwhile for income.
They make their own assessment based on experience.
Stern is not going to turn around and $#@! on operators, that have always been a mainstay.

There is a reason I buy predominantly BLY/WMS/GTB/AGC/ZAC games.
When Stern cuts corners, I don't buy the machine, and watch.
I buy used machines for a reason, I have played them, I know what can go wrong at that point, and teething issues have been fixed (or not).
Rarely now I buy NIB, such as the case as MET, but I waited 3 years.
It is called being a "smart shopper".

I almost pulled the trigger on a NIB ST Premium (at a proper price), but I decided to buy another BLY game instead.
This has nothing to do with clearcoat or construction quality, just acceptance that availability of new games is easier to find than old ones.
You have to know what you want.

That all sounds convincing and hopeful for pinball. I was just pointing out a Gary Stern quote that surprised me a bit.

You can't go by any "pin guide" for my area either... there's only a couple spots that have more than one or two machines and often none at all as it's been replaced with some hideous redemption gambling device

What's with the "us versus them" and "I'm so smart and you newbies exhaust 'us' and make stupid decisions" attitude? Nobody is here to be lectured. It's really off-putting and unnecessary. There are tons of collectors that jumped into this hobby in the last 2 to 15 years that are not only rock solid people but are also very well informed and super sharp.

Your definition of being a "smart shopper" has total tunnel vision. You like to put your money into older games that are in good shape. That's cool and if that's your thing, go for it.

But collecting is not some contest where the person with the best deals wins. What you need to understand is that there are collectors and players out there that do legitimately like modern games, modern rule sets, modern themes AND they are willing to pay to get them into their home to be played. Emphasis on played. Nothing wrong with that... And if they have the available coin to buy them, then so be it. Absolutely nothing wrong with paying modern costs for a NIB. If they want to show some frustrations, they're allowed to. They've earned that right.

back to TOPIC

any news

what will Stern do with international owners and this problem?

I'd argue the shipping stress will only cause the problems to happen more frequently when shipped overseas..

They won't do much

Alexandria is not reasonably close to Baltimore.
I live about 35 minutes from DC but I would not go there to play pinball in a barcade, especially since there typically is nowhere to park and traffic is often miserable. Baltimore would be about an hour and 15 minutes and also likely would still present the parking problem.
Until there are pinball locations in the suburbs pinball is primarily a HUO thing to me.

I attribute it to passion outweighing common sense. It's alright to buy NIB. It's alright to target used machines for acquisition. It's alright to be dissatisfied with current production quality levels. It's alright for manufacturers to be satisfied with quality levels that you are not. In the end we all make our own decisions and the market is affected appropriately by the sum of our own decisions. All the ranting for special treatment is what I find disturbing. I can imagine a subset of pinheads formulating a class and doing their best to seek compensation for quality problems. If the class is large enough and successful, stern would operate under bk protection for some time before another round of lawsuits put the final nail in their coffin. I don't think a single person on this board would be happy under these circumstances, the squeaky wheels could admire their $150 settlement checks while feeling sad they had to teach stern a lesson about quality.

The ghosting problem is disappointing, but so are a lot of other things in life. Anyone who has ever manufactured an item for retail sale has problems exactly like ghosting. If the quality standard is perfection, the manufacturer is out of business because the standard will price out the product. It's really that simple.

Is your wife's engagement ring diamond perfect? I doubt it.

I'm open to all opinions and think everyone should do whatever they want... buy old, buy new, buy Ems only, don't buy at all and play location only. I don't care. I was simply pointing out that the tone/attitude is off putting. The guy seems to have a lot of knowledge to share...which is what the community needs. Perhaps losing the sharp edge would help make it palatable.

Some here don't like car analogies but if a major car manufacturer built new cars that has clearcoat separating from the paint I'm sure there would be a major recall. I would like to see someone buy a brand new car with ghosting clearcoat and say it's just a car, just drive it and don't worry about it. That POV reminds me a child who doesn't wash his face because it will get dirty again. It's a defect, make believe it's not there if you're so inclined but I wouldn't buy a late model Stern game with ghosting on the used market unless it was cheap enough to pay for putting in a new playfield. Then you risk, what happens if the new playfield does it. If anything it should be a problem to owners just based on resale value, unless you find someone who just isn't aware of the issue. Sending someone a new blank playfield seems to me the equivalent of sending someone a gallon of paint because their new car's clearcoat is delaminating.

Just saw this....

http://captiongenerator.com/94200/Hitler-reacts-to-Sterns-ghosting-inserts

That was epic! Nailed Pinside perfectly!

You must have slept through the decades of clearcoat adhesion problems for both GM and Ford. I don't recall any compensation for the cars I owned that faded/bubbled/peeled. They were all out of warranty.. just like your NIB playfield.

And, as I pointed out previously, you can go to the dealership today and find plenty of cars with orange peel. I don't see GM stripping and repainting any of the corvettes coming off the line with orange peel... and a lot of those are special ordered as well. I wonder how many special order cars are rejected because of paint issues.

Those who never bough a NIB game, back the fuck up!!!!

Wow, two months warranty!!! That is crazy...that would be two years in Denmark (and europe), and not up to the manufacturer.
Tell me, if you go and buy an XBOX, how long is the warranty?

Good idea, I'll sell all my pins and play only TPA now!

Stern will stop selling in Europe if that warranty were enforced. Apparently your enforcement nannies still consider a pinball machine a commercial item and not a consumer item.

Look, shipping new games with obvious defects is not going to cut it with the home buyers - period. They don't care about why the problems happen, that's Stern's problem to solve. You operator types can rant all day about how good it feels buy a new game that's half there out of the box and point to Stern's crappy warranty if you want. The standards have changed for home buyers, and if Stern wants to stay in business they'll need to take care of their customers and meet their expectations, or someone else will.

Case in point, I've been collecting, maintaining, and playing the hell out of old games for over 20 years. My first NIB purchase 3 weeks ago was a disappointment due to Stern's low quality standards. I even waited for several years until the game I wanted was fully ripened (Metallica), but that was no protection from the variances of the Stern production process. At this point I can't see buying a new game from Stern again. Too risky. I'd rather see what I'm getting and pay for what it is worth in it's actual condition than take a chance on what's inside the box.

...and if it upsets you that people paying full price for a NIB game feel like they have a right to voice concerns, and possibly work together to try to force some kind of appropriate response from the vendor, too f*cking bad.

Ball is in Stern's court, let's see how they play it.

The resellers will have to stand by the two year warranty when they sell a game. This was changed from one to two years about 15 years ago. I never cared for the double-warranty and have never been in a situation where I have used it.

The two years warranty are for consumer items.

Maybe this is where Heighway Pinball can enter the fray? IF old blighty is still part of EU in a few days

Stern will remain in business despite customers like you, not because of them. You obviously have never been involved in the production of a good. I bet your professional experience is government or some other bureaucratic/parasitic career like charity, insurance, finance or law.

Well said, I agree 100%! My difference is that I'm still waiting for my first NIB purchase, and it won't happen so soon...

What fytr said!

I don't think so... his mission was to acquire a flawless NIB pin... unfortunately, he failed!