If ghosting is normal how come Stern games from 2000 - 2014 seems to be free of this issue?
Damage limitation?
Quoted from Shapeshifter:If ghosting is normal how come Stern games from 2000 - 2014 seems to be free of this issue?
Damage limitation?
The Unicorn that peed over all the playfields has died. RIP.
Quoted from ronaldvg:The Unicorn that peed over all the playfields has died. RIP.
Lol.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Uhhh... can I cancel my order and get my deposit back please?
This is the only way we will see Stern, until people stop buying and in essence make a stand we will continue to see Sterns standards slip lower and lower.
Quoted from Shapeshifter:If ghosting is normal how come Stern games from 2000 - 2014 seems to be free of this issue?
Damage limitation?
It isn't normal, I had had games that are 20-30 years old with no ghosting, this is just another way for Stern to avoid responsibility.
It's too bad they didn't also put in a disclaimer that it's normal to have node boards fail. That's a missed opportunity.
Quoted from Rum-Z:It's too bad they didn't also put in a disclaimer that it's normal to have node boards fail. That's a missed opportunity.
To be fair, it already states in the manual that Printed Circuit boards have a warranty period of two months.
Quoted from Rum-Z:It's too bad they didn't also put in a disclaimer that it's normal to have node boards fail. That's a missed opportunity.
don't give them ideas
Quoted from EricHadley:Wholly crap they did add that! I didn't believe it could be true so I went and checked myself. Sure enough, starting with Star Wars they added "Normal plastic insert crazing (tiny stress cracks) and ghosting (small cloudy areas around insert edges) are often seen in pinball machines, due to a combination of plastic mold stress, pushing of inserts into purposely undersized holes, and heating and breaking of inserts’ plastic “skin” when the playfield is sanded." Unbelievable, now I am convinced more than ever to completely avoid any Stern NIB. Wow
I can't believe what I am reading here. This can't be true!!
Quoted from cooked71:And speaking of ghosting, this disclaimer is from the first page of the SW manual off Sterns website (was raised by someone on our local forum Aussie Arcade):
Thats one forum to avoid ... i never recomend anyone to be part of that group. Too much infighting and egos .....
Quoted from Shapeshifter:If ghosting is normal how come Stern games from 2000 - 2014 seems to be free of this issue?
Damage limitation?
just luck I suppose? Besides, those playfields cost an extra $20 each!!!
Quoted from Skyemont:I can't believe what I am reading here. This can't be true!!
1st page.
http://www.sternpinball.com/upload/games/star/premium/StarWars_LE_Pre_web.pdf
Quoted from cooked71:Normal..........ghosting (small cloudy areas around insert edges) are often seen in pinball machines,
"are more often than not seen in STERN pinball machines, post 2012"
Sorry I don't buy it, I have had games 20-30 years old with no ghosting and I have plenty of Sterns myself and friends with rows of Sterns with no ghosting, my Goldeneye & my Goldeneye NOS playfield have zero ghosting on either of them.
Its like Stern want us to stop buying their games!? I am greatful Stern kept pinball alive through the bad times and I supported them through those stripped down years, but my god what has happened to this company over the last couple of years!?
Quoted from Shapeshifter:If ghosting is normal how come Stern games from 2000 - 2014 seems to be free of this issue?
Damage limitation?
And to add to that, why would they be doing so many playfield swaps if it was so normal? Wtf is going on here folks. JJP and spooky stock just went up....lots!
Quoted from Eskaybee:why would they be doing so many playfield swaps if it was so normal?
It's not "normal". They are trying to make it normal so they don't have to do playfield swaps in the future.
Quoted from J85M:Its like Stern want us to stop buying their games!? I am greatful Stern kept pinball alive through the real bad times and I supported them though those stripped down years, but my god what has happened to this company over the last couple of years.
No, they are confident people will just still buy them and they won't have to spend a penny more on quality (and will most likely continue cost cutting while raising prices).
Quoted from Travish:It's not "normal". They are trying to make it normal so they don't have to do playfield swaps in the future.
How do you interpret I though? The whole thing is left to interpretation.
Are they saying a little ghosting is normal "small cloudy lines around insert edges" and they would replace serious ghosting or would they say full on large cloudy/ghosting inserts and inserts lifting is a result of normal manufacturing?
I take it as "whatever we say it is".
They can save a lot of money on replacements just saying no. For the amount they spent on GB replacement issues alone they could have had it together by now and not need a "out".
most things improve over time. \
seems the playfields not having these issues has gotten worse/ so much so they have to write that in. that is pathetic !!
now it is like buying a box of Kraker Jacks and need to hope you get the Prize!! Fuggin hell. now to buy second hand / I see people with prime examples going to be cashing in on their prize compared to a seller with one with half the playfield ghosting. And both at NIB time pays the same.. Ha! what a crock
Quoted from Metengo:Don´t know, when they left their old building, but for me it looks like they forgot the QC there.
Haha! The reality is, they've always had QC issues. It seems worse now because the designs are simpler, so it seems weird that such simplicity can result in things not working right, and - the prices are higher, which makes it more of a kick to the crotch.
If we go back to 2003-2005, playfields had massive discrepancies in color & alignment. If you've ever seen a bunch of LOTRs and TSPPs, every playfield can look so different. I've seen LOTRs with green Gollums, some that have deep reds, some with no red, some that look washed out, some that look deep and lush. Then again, in 2005 you were getting a full featured game for $3500 NIB. Collectors still complained, but Stern was the only place you could get new pinball so it was what it was.
Color consistency was fixed from 2006 on, but we still saw alignment problems. My Spidey looked like a 3D comic - red and blue were misaligned. That problem seemed rare though - I think by the end of 2007 they figured that one out.
I feel it was around 2007-2010 where we started seeing playfields with "ribbing" ...you could see the woodgrain, and it didn't have that glassy surface we expect. Not sure if it was due to certain wood or certain manufacturer - but it was a crapshoot. I remember my clearance WOF, built in 2009, I think - had the most beautiful perfect color glass-surface playfield I'd ever seen on a Stern. My 2010 build of BDK had a perfect playfield, too...but my 2010 IM had a ribbed one. Again, keep in mind these were $4k NIB, not $5k-$15k like today.
Quoted from ronaldvg:My ASLE playfield has got the best clearcoat I have ever seen on a Stern (had almost all of them to compare). Even the dimpling is minimal on this one and there are airballs by design on this one.
My ASLE too. So does my BM66LE. Gorgeous PF's.
Now we are back to having issues with SW?
Surely they didn't go back to the mystery supplier did they?
Btw, listen to Who Dey, he knows what he's talking about!
Quoted from Travish:I take it as "whatever we say it is".
They can save a lot of money on replacements just saying no. For the amount they spent on GB replacement issues alone they could have had it together by now and not need a "out".
They raised the price again to pay for all the replacements. You would think lesson learned.
I'll be watching in the next few weeks to see how the un boxings go.
Makes no sense to be the guinea pig again.
Especially with that cya disclaimer language. As if ghosting is normal and expected.
Curious if pinside thinks ghosting is now normal on NIB. Take the poll, if yes I am curious to know why.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-new-policy-ghosting-is-normalor-is-it#post-3889753
Quoted from Rum-Z:It's too bad they didn't also put in a disclaimer that it's normal to have node boards fail. That's a missed opportunity.
Peeling decals.... cracked cabinets... might as well add it all
Quoted from Shapeshifter:If ghosting is normal how come Stern games from 2000 - 2014 seems to be free of this issue?
Damage limitation?
There not. Ive seen ghosting on LOTR (2003), SM(2007), XMEN(2012), and TSPP(2006 end run). All HUO well taken care of games that nobody ever thought twice about until GB ghosting issue. Some of them had 10+ ghosted inserts.
Quoted from Phbooms:There not. Ive seen ghosting on LOTR (2003), SM(2007), XMEN(2012), and TSPP(2006 end run). All HUO well taken care of games that nobody ever thought twice about until GB ghosting issue. Some of them had 10+ ghosted inserts.
MINOR ghosting due to time changes as wood has expanded and contracted over and over again... I am sure if I look at my collection and I can find a few examples.
Minor, minor insert ghosting on say 1 insert on a new game is a bummer, but I don't think ruins the game. This issue shot up because it seemed like ghosting was rapidly progressing during game play (i.e. was not due to seasonal changes in wood) AND some playfields were disintegrating during HOU play.
I don't have to ask myself if a random game from 2005 with 3 ghosted inserts is going to self destruct over the next 3 years. I look at it and say "yeah, its not brand new, it is what it is".
With these new games, who knows what out of the box minor ghosting is a harbringer of? CPR may be busy with playfield reruns in decade for current Sterns, or they may have held up well.
If you care to roll the dice, $tern will happily take your money is one certainty!
edit: FWIW I just had a quick glance at my five Stern Games (LoTR to IM in time scale) and I think 2007 SM is the only one with a ghosted insert, and even then I couldn't actually find it during my 20 second lookover... just going from my rickety memory).
I guess I should have clarified my original post about bringing "awareness" to STERN hoping for "faster resolve." Faster Resolve for the customer, not a get out of jail free card for STERN. Ghosting is not normal. Ghosting is only normal on defective playfields. Ghosting leads to cracks, cracks lead to clear coat separation, separation leads to paint flecking off the playfield. I don't know about you, but I don't want my game to have bare wood spots showing through after a few years of play.
What happens with the secondary market? What person in their right mind is going to buy a pin with ghosting inserts if they can just wait and look a little harder for one that doesn't have them? Ok, maybe you can sell it, but at how much of a discount? We clearly know that there's at least one manufacturer who can make playfields that aren't ghosting from day one. If you buy an LE you're even further screwed because STERN doesn't sell replacement LE playfields. Good luck getting that signature below the clear a few years down the road. Apparently we are all supposed to play Russian roulette with our NIB purchases from STERN now.
Anyone that knows me knows I've been a strong advocate of STERN. I think they make fun games with great rules that really resonate with me. In the past they've worked through QC issues with me and I've always been satisfied. This new blanket statement on their manual simply tells me that they are NOT going to do anything to help you if you have ghosting issues. That is completely unacceptable for me. I'm not going to take that kind of risk on a luck of the draw multi-thousand dollar purchase. If I can't get confirmation from my distributor that one way or the other I will be taken care of if I experience any ghosting, I will no longer be a NIB buyer from STERN. This was the last straw.
Since I have never had single stern I shouldn't really comment. I only have 5 games and I don't have 1 single bad insert in all combined. They were routed games with incandescent bulbs.
I think this whole ghosting of inserts thing is out of control. I have several inserts on my GOT that have a sliver of ghosting. The game plays fine. The inserts are not lifting or getting worse at all. Shit, if you all didn't mention it, I wouldn't have even noticed them. If and when I try to sell my game and the interested party tries to low ball me because of the ghosting inserts, I'll tell them to go elsewhere. It doesn't effect gameplay at all. I've seen some pretty tasteless mods that look way worse than a few ghosted inserts.
Quoted from Travish:Since I have never had single stern I shouldn't really comment. I only have 5 games and I don't have 1 single bad insert in all combined. They were routed games with incandescent bulbs.
I own TWD, GOTLE, LOTR, IMVE, and TFLE. Zero ghosting. Ghosting is not normal. Every single SW pro I've seen on location has had noticeable ghosting.
I usually do not give free financial advise but what the hell. Invest in JJP and CGC. Stern stock will be plummeting. Abandon ship. Mayday! MayDay!
Quoted from ASOA:I usually do not give free financial advise but what the hell. Invest in JJP and CGC. Stern stock will be plummeting. Abandon ship. Mayday! MayDay!
so you would rather have big chunks of playfield missing with the art gone down to bare wood over a ghosted insert? ill stick with the company that sends new playfields out to replace seriously ghosted playfields over a company that sends stickers out or a piece of metal to cover a $9k machine with chipped to bare wood in many places playfield.
3e0eaeafefac2baffcdeb3bd8c9596c96b7b36e2 (resized).png VS
52136d4ff67d1f1a7a6d9735d2c6095ac4667b07 (resized).jpg
Quoted from BC_Gambit:MINOR ghosting due to time changes as wood has expanded and contracted over and over again... I am sure if I look at my collection and I can find a few examples.
Minor, minor insert ghosting on say 1 insert on a new game is a bummer, but I don't think ruins the game. This issue shot up because it seemed like ghosting was rapidly progressing during game play (i.e. was not due to seasonal changes in wood) AND some playfields were disintegrating during HOU play.
I don't have to ask myself if a random game from 2005 with 3 ghosted inserts is going to self destruct over the next 3 years. I look at it and say "yeah, its not brand new, it is what it is".
With these new games, who knows what out of the box minor ghosting is a harbringer of? CPR may be busy with playfield reruns in decade for current Sterns, or they may have held up well.
If you care to roll the dice, $tern will happily take your money is one certainty!
edit: FWIW I just had a quick glance at my five Stern Games (LoTR to IM in time scale) and I think 2007 SM is the only one with a ghosted insert, and even then I couldn't actually find it during my 20 second lookover... just going from my rickety memory).
Shoot, a decade ago the only time I heard ghosting was in reference to led's. It did happen, but not with the same frequency as today. I think all the manufacturers need to tighten their shit and make sure something as important as the playfield is solid.
Quoted from T-800:I own TWD, GOTLE, LOTR, IMVE, and TFLE. Zero ghosting. Ghosting is not normal. Every single SW pro I've seen on location has had noticeable ghosting.
One week, 500 plays, one tiny sliver on one of the Roman numerals. Will keep an eye on it.
Hasn't affected earnings one bit.
Buy from companies who stand behind their products. Please inform the community of issues with your games as they occur. But most of all when they do occur what is the response from the manufacturer. It is inevitable problems will happen when they do how will the Manufacture and your DUSTRIBUTOR respond.
.....Accountability......
Quoted from beelzeboob:Great English have you can to speak.
English might not be his first language? If it is then I agree he needs to go back to school
Quoted from smokedog:One week, 500 plays, one tiny sliver on one of the Roman numerals. Will keep an eye on it.
Hasn't affected earnings one bit.
500 plays per week is good right?
Quoted from iceman44:500 plays per week is good right?
Thats what i was thinking. At $1 a play will be in the profit in no time.
Hey Ice does your ASle or BM66 have a beveled edge on the drain hole? I noticed my SW has a beveled edge and was just wondering when Stern started that?
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