...but then there's your avatar. And if everyone's too stupid, then that includes EVERYONE.

DISCLAIMER: I've already freely admitted I'm an idiot. It's rather liberating, actually.

In my opinion, there is a difference between "complicated rules" and "chess rules". Both types can be deep, but they get their depth in different ways.

For example. LOTR and AC/DC are both well regarded for their depth of code.

LOTR gets its depth through the game progression and variety of regular, mini-wizard, and final wizard modes along with all of their accompanying display and call outs/sound effects.

AC/DC gets its depth through the scoring strategies that accompany its modes and multiballs.

I would say LOTR is in the complicated category and AC/DC is more chess like.

Perfect examples...it's partially why I love LOTR rules and loathe AC/DC.

I too prefer LOTR style rules because I enjoy hearing the sound effects/callouts and seeing the images on the display as rewards when things are accomplished in the game. For example, the pitter patter of feet as characters cross the bridge in Fellowship multiball or the Super Jackpot callouts when you beat a multiball mode never gets old to me. You don't even need to look at the screen to know what is happening.

However, I can understand the excitement in AC/DC and risk/reward decisions in the rules, ie. when to cash out the song jackpot, building up the playfield multipliers, etc. I think Lyman excels at making great tournament games.

I would enjoy these "chess" type games a lot more if they added sounds/callouts and display effects to accompany accomplishments instead of just giving you a score.

It's also much harder to learn the intricacies of a game as you play without appropriate sounds and/or display effects (during pauses) to let you know what you've done.

1000%

That too is why i could never go to that next level in understanding the "chess" game on Ac/dc. TWD was a totally different story.

Don't have much time on TWD, may need to revisit it. It seems like code revisions have elevated it.

I was initially underwhelmed by the feel of the playfield, ie. clunky orbit and well walker bash toy, prison doors bash toy that open to reveal a bash toy and ramp that lifts to reveal a ... bash toy.

I owned the game for a year. Code was exemplary... but, the playfield is just as you describe. It just didn't ever line up quite right...
it left the factory without physical polish. And the bash toys create this constant rush of a hit followed up by a dribble back down toward the flippers.

Happy to have owned it. Happy to have sold it.

It grows on you. The better you get at it. A masterpiece.

I know what you mean by things feeling like they don't line up and not feeling particularly fluid, but TWD comes with plenty of hardware on it

2 x magnets
3 (4 if you say doors & head are seperate) x bash toys
And some of the best code in pinball.

Certainly gives you your money's worth.

And its really not the hardware, its just a Borg/Lyman masterpiece.

The layout is genius set up properly and the rules/immersion/journey is the best ever imo.

Playing TWD with the Voice over MOD is like playing a completely different game. A must have if playing TWD, I didn't care for it all that much until I loaded the voice files.

Hmm...not code or layout but sound for you. That really says something about the power of sound in a game.

I'm curious about this... when I owned the game I tried it and found Stern's to be better because it directs and leads you through the game. Probably just me, but having characters from the show blurt out various phrases just felt random. It's customized but not customized... a game like ST shows how great real customized voice work can be. These TWD code mods show a lot of user creativity, but the show call outs really miss the mark of feeling in-game appropriate.

Pretty sure there have been several times when characters say the name of places that are featured in the game during the show.

When they are heading to and reach places in each session they often do a lot of talking about them so there must be some create audio clips that could be lifted featuring - CDC, barn, terminus, tunnel, prison and they definitely say shoot a lot in the show, with some creative editing and cutting, these could be made to direct the player like the original hillbilly callouts.

You are correct. The first voice mod wasn't 100% for directional call outs, but over time the Voice mod development was very detailed. In any case, I was always ok with layout and came on the heels of old code, so I was just learning rule sets before code really improved. Tie the character voices and I loved the machine.

I've seen this sentiment over and over... and I simply don't get it. Why do people want the biggest company in pinball to fail??! Aren't we all supposed to be "In to Pinball"?!

Do you ACTUALLY think Stern doesn't care?! I find that hard to imagine. They are constantly addressing issues that arise. I think the issues that keep coming up are proof that manufacturing a pinball machine is very difficult.

I think if tiny cosmetic issues ruin your enjoyment of the machine, then you're in the wrong hobby.

I despise the "call to arms" to stop buying new pinball machines. I love all eras of pinball, but my favourite machines of ALL TIME are TWD and MET.

I hate waiting on code too. That's one area where I wish Stern would really up their game.

As far as cosmetic issues, and problems with the build quality and fit and finish. Every single machine I've purchased has had issues. From JJP, from Spooky, and of course all the older machines. It's part of the territory. My WOZ and my Hobbit both had MAJOR issues. Quality control is not a problem unique to Stern. These issues, large and small, have not caused me to enjoy pinball any less.

As the pitchforks and torches come out repeatedly, I will continue to say...

Isn't this supposed to be fun?!

@rarehero, I find your GB rants mostly amusing. I sold my GBle, but I don't HATE it. It just wasn't the game for me. It's certainly not the flaming bag of diapers you make it out to be! Haha.

I was playing in the Arcade at NY NY in Vegas yesterday. I was playing Avatar, cause I don't see it much. I watched an older British couple play one game of AC/DC, and then about 10 games on Ghostbusters. They were having a blast. At one point, I said to them, "You've chosen a notoriously difficult machine to play!"

They'd walked past MET, ST, SM, IM, TWD, Avatar etc to play GB because it interested them. It was kicking their asses, but they were having fun... again, that's what it's supposed to be about, right?!!

Happy flipping all

Very difficult or due to cost-cutting?

Big difference, depending on what you believe.

The Game of Thrones left orbit diverter "fix" is the clearest incontrovertible confirmation Stern often doesn't care. A fix for the bad diverter design/install that COMPLETELY BROKE the Martell mode was supposedly coming forever. Then they issued a software update that disabled it and said it was working "as designed" which was complete bull. Even disabling it, the Martell mode was broken because the ball took way longer going through the pops than around the orbit, eating valuable time off the mode clock. To say it was "as designed" was a slap in the face to owners and Steve Ritchie, but of course he can't say anything publicly. I'm sure he's still pissed.

The crazy thing is a fix wouldn't have cost that much (change the shape of the diverter arm a little), and the problem was found early enough that all newer GoT off the line at that time could have had it installed at the factory, costing very little. Stern chose to lie about it and move on. That's a lack of caring.

Just to caveat on what you are saying, Steve Ritchie did acknowledge the issue with the diverter arm at a pinball convention and it was recorded but since removed from youtube. Also more than a few people at STERN and distributors early on said the exact same thing.

He acknowledged after the "as designed" lie? I didn't know that. Like I said, I bet he's still pissed about that.

They didn't even have to remanufacture the diverter arms. Just drill the assembly mounting holes 1/16th of an inch wider and push it toward the player when remounting. Took me 15 minutes and cost nothing.

Guess that's too much to ask for an 8k machine.

At the factory they could have just changed where they were drilling the holes and wouldn't have to drill out the assembly holes at all.

Who said anything about failing? I want them to be better. To me, they've failed, and I won't buy their products until they improve. Being "into pinball" doesn't mean being a Stern sycophant.

Some people there do....but the product speaks for itself.

Met came out in 2013, TWD in 2014. A lot can happen in a few years. The "SPIKE era" has not been good.

Put your money where your mouth is. If you buy an unfinished, untested game in 2017, you deserve an untested and unfinished game.

My overboard shtick is just that - shtick...but, it represents how I feel about the state of new games = not buying it.

Art and theme go far. Perhaps older/British have no interest in the other themes...but GB is universally loved by all demographics. We're enthusiasts here - we know the difference in gameplay and rules from game to game. GB does great on route. Its earning power has nothing to do with how people like us may judge it.

It's funny to see the remarkable difference between Stern and CGC. If you're familiar with Six Sigma methodology, basically in a nutshell it's the process of incorporating engineer, QC, and customer feedback to eliminate product defects as soon as possible. While it may be more costly to actually fix problems quickly and immediately, it has proven time and time again to be healthier to a company's bottom line, reputation, and future growth.

On one hand you've got Stern who seems to follow the opposite of the Six Sigma process. Defects are ignored, products are rushed out incomplete. For someone that pinches pennies so badly that it's obvious to even a novice (glaring red optos, anyone?), Gary doesn't see the hundreds of thousands of dollars he's losing from people who are forgoing NIB Stern games (or buying used) because the quality is consistently terrible. It's staggering how much money they are losing from their reputation and they have no clue.

On the other hand is CGC. The MMR rollout was a friggin' disaster but boy did they learn fast. Virtually every screw-up from the MMR launch was corrected for AFMR. They got it all right. But not only that, they are employing many Six Sigma principles to ensure their reputation and customer satisfaction. After launch, folks complained about the Strobe being too dim. Boom, days later they announce a software update to allow adjustment. And better yet, Doug is posting in the Pinside AFMR Production Update thread every week with insightful images, status updates, and more. They are absolutely killing it over there. They get it and if everything remains the same, they - not JJP - will be the Mercedes of pinball companies....ironically, producing 20 year old games.

Disclaimer (I feel this is needed to avoid the appearance of favoritism): I own 3 WMS games plus MMR, Metallica, and Dialed In. I am not purchasing AFMR.

I think you mean, DON'T put my money where my mouth is!?? Haha

I suppose I'm simply saying, I really like new pinball machines. I bought a BM66... and I'm waiting. It doesn't bother me. With the design I saw (love the BDK Crane), the artwork, and Lyman on the rules, I had a HIGH degree of confidence that the game was going to end up great. I still do. Until it is, I'm not playing it. It's already fun to shoot, but it lacks the depth that will be coming... eventually!!

By buying a new pinball machine with unfinished code, and potential issues, I'm not telling Stern I don't give a shit... I'm telling them I trust that they will address whatever arises. That has been my experience.

Thanks for the detailed, and thoughtful response to my post. Not looking to argue, just looking to lighten the mood... as always.

Once again, Yes, I think Stern is serious. Aerosmith is one hell of a fun pinball machine. Great toy box mech, amazing original art, and really solid and fun rules by Lonnie. That machine may be making its way to a basement near me before long!

More Flipping, Less Ripping!

This was before the "UPDATE FIX" during first few months of GOT release.

Oh, right. I knew about that. I thought you were saying he was on record after the "as designed" fiasco.

My condolences. You bought an overpriced prototype. You have to believe Stern will come through, since you took the plunge. You're still in that zone where waiting is no biggie. I used to be there. Sometimes, like Metallica - it all worked out. Other times, like X-Men and Stern Trek, the games took forever to get a decent update and when they did, they were still abandoned with remaining issues. Granted, when I was there - they weren't selling prototypes for $10k and $15k. Anyway - I no longer have "faith" in buying incomplete and untested product. It's not any of our duty to keep Stern in business. It's their job to make a product great enough for us to consider purchasing.

You got that F ing right.

Condolences appreciated. There will be an open casket viewing for family and friends on Saturday from 3-4 pm, service to follow.

I kid. It's a great looking/sounding pin, and I have no doubt that Lyman will make it a thing of beauty.

I was a day one STle.. sucked for a while. Day one TWDle... sucked for even longer! Those experiences simply didn't sour me in any way. While I was waiting for code to come, I bought and sold things like Volley, Jungle Queen, JM, JD, TSPP etc etc etc. All those machines have come and gone, but STle, and TWDle remain in my collection.

Man this is really getting pathetic.

How do you recycle F ed up "old pf's" to new customers as opposed to just throwing them out?

Do you give a F?

My SWLE is now on hold.

Good lord, JJP is as bad, sorry.

Wait, what?

I think iceman has drank one too many tonight!

Show some respect newb....iceman has never had only 1 too many!

But Ice is totally correct...we all know "pinball is hard" and all that shit but did every company just literally forget how to make a pinball machine?!?

I think the new clear coats they are using now is causing them problems. I just don't understand why it's so hit and miss on the quality. Why can't all playfields be like AS? Why have no walking deads ghosted or chipped? I think the worst is behind us but I do believe the new clear coats are not pin ball playfield friendly for some reason.

No disrespect for iceman here. He's a good guy and an asset to this hobby. I wish everyone on here was as cool as iceman is!

I gave you a thumbs up above and then you go a little to weird here man.

lol I like iceman. He's funny as hell and a good dude!

Simply yes. Never got a reply to my tries of contact. Mails, more mails, no more mails. Game over.

Don´t know, when they left their old building, but for me it looks like they forgot the QC there.

Pure speculation/: My theory is AS was made by Sterns original pf supplier (Churchill) after the GB debacle. Gb was the result of Stern either bringing pf production in house or trying a new cheaper supplier. After the GB debacle, they went in to damage control and switched pf production back to Churchill for AS (and possible B66 since my B66 is perfect, like AS).

Now with SW, they thought they had it all figured out, and went back to in house/new cheaper Pf production again.

:\ End pure speculation.

Interesting theory and seems quite likely as AS has hardly had any p/f issues, especially ghosting.

I just read that when B/W were crazy busy they used up to 4 different cabinet manufacturers for the same game!

My ASLE playfield has got the best clearcoat I have ever seen on a Stern (had almost all of them to compare). Even the dimpling is minimal on this one and there are airballs by design on this one.

So strange as you would think they would stick with something that is working out so good as how the playfield of the AS is made, but indeed they do not care for quality. They are in it for maximising profit which in itself is not bad as any good company would do so, but in their case it affects the quality in such a way that many people rethink buying new machines. Long term that will affect them very badly especially when the competition gets more games out.

I am still waiting on a playfield replacement for my GBLE. I reported the chipping and ghosting almost a year ago and heard nothing after that.

In the time that I was waiting I had some node boards failing and those also took a very long time to get replaced. Between all that I am out buying Stern machines. Also with the new SW there is just too little of a pinball machine there for what it costs. I love toys on the playfield as they build the "world under glass". Without anything to look at/shoot for it just is not for me. It could well be a great game but I know that for me personally it will get old very quickly as it did with other Ritchie games.

And speaking of ghosting, this disclaimer is from the first page of the SW manual off Sterns website (was raised by someone on our local forum Aussie Arcade):

"Stern Pinball machines are assembled in Elk Grove Village, Illinois, USA. Stern Pinball has inspected each game element to ensure it meets our quality standards.
Each pinball machine has unique characteristics that make it a one-of-a-kind American made product. Each will have variations in appearance resulting from differences in the machine’s particular wood parts, individual printed art and mechanical assemblies. No playfield is perfectly flat and varies depending on the season. Game play will result in playfield dimpling as the harder steel ball contacts the wood and coating; over time multiple dimples will blend to make them less noticeable. Normal..........ghosting (small cloudy areas around insert edges) are often seen in pinball machines, due to a combination of plastic mold stress, pushing of inserts into purposely undersized holes, and heating and breaking of inserts’ plastic “skin” when the playfield is sanded.

Instead of fixing the problem, proclaim it to be normal. Very nice CYA disclaimer.

Wholly crap they did add that! I didn't believe it could be true so I went and checked myself. Sure enough, starting with Star Wars they added "Normal plastic insert crazing (tiny stress cracks) and ghosting (small cloudy areas around insert edges) are often seen in pinball machines, due to a combination of plastic mold stress, pushing of inserts into purposely undersized holes, and heating and breaking of inserts’ plastic “skin” when the playfield is sanded." Unbelievable, now I am convinced more than ever to completely avoid any Stern NIB. Wow

Wow, sounds like they don't really have a fix for the problem so it's business full steam ahead anyway.

I love my AS but I'll be passing on future releases NIB. I'm not a fan of paying more for less. How about paying more for more!!!

Yep. Hard to believe. "We're the greatest manufacturer of pinball machines in the world, but we can't work out how to make a playfield without ghosting. So we'll write a disclaimer pretending it's normal instead."

Uhhh... can I cancel my order and get my deposit back please?