Seemed fitting...

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I place a bet, soon the old SM will be much higher than the SM VE.
I crossing the fingers that STERN will handle it for all affected pinsiders.

I played a GB Pro on location yesterday and it had no insert lifting at all.

I'm with you on this bet simply because I find SMVE plain ugly (despite the ghosting flaws)!

True, true, but a pinball does not devalue that much,sell it after you are done playing it, nobody notices this " ghosting" crap.
I never had someone buy a game off me complaining that my inserts were ghosting, heck, i learned what ghosting was in this topic, this morning??
I deal pinballs for 7 years?
I had a guy once rubbing a getaway playfield,telling me how bad my inserts were...so i send him on his way back home with the message that he is a tool.
Don't be a nerd with a magnifying glass,checking your playfield daily..be cool and go like:"yeah, whatever"... And play the damn thing.
If you don't like it anymore, sell it to somebody,everybody understands pinballs don't stay new and immaculate...certainly not sterns.
I beat the living shit out of my got le daily, i give it hell, because that is what you should do with a pinball,beat and kick it, it is not a van Gogh.

If you charge me $7 + K for a pro then I will not lower my expectations.

If they want to reduce cost then they should only make one model of each pin. That would free up animation time, production time, engineering time, parts supplying time, CAD time, designer time...hell just time etc.

In 2010 you could get a brand new Ironman for under $4K. Jump 5.5 years and the price as now jumped by 25-40%. I don't know about you but inflation (or whatever you want to call it) does not go up that fast. Especially after you have drastically cut cost (service rails, metal apron, lockdown bar etc..). If you are going to artificially (thanks JJP) increase prices then your clients will expect perfection.

Not everyone are "dealers" and we want to keep our games forever!

BTW: Go home, you're a TOOL!

There are a number of errors here.

Long term, experienced, collectors notice...a lot.
Rarely, are they "tools", they provide the primary expertise to teach future generations the skills required to maintain this industry and hobby.
This is after many "enthusiasts" are long gone.
The latest generation would not be spending thousands of $$$ for powdercoating, if they wanted to just pound on their games.
Full collectors also pay premium for collector quality games for a reason, not for somebody's game that has had the crap beat out of it.
Dealers don't want "played out" games either, because they cannot resell them properly, or are hard to find replacement parts to restore a game.
Brokers and flippers don't care either way, but they will not buy premium and an owner sells at a loss.
Pinball devalues based on how well they have been taken care of in the long run.
Take care of your games, and they will not lose money in the long run, and you can enjoy them.
That much is true.
Failure to do do, and the game turns into junk, in short order, which can happen in months not years.

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There are way more average buyers and and relaxed collectors in the world... Of course no one wants a junked game... But the collectors that want games because of the gameplay itself are way less concerned about this stuff than collectors that obsess over a chip in clear coat underneath the apron.

Agreed. But we still price things based on condition

Unfortunately, improper game condition evaluation versus baseline market prices = artificial cost inflation.

There is no doubt there are plenty of buyers that are not driven exactly on condition, but they also do not pay premium for collector game examples either, as you said "they want something to play".
That is why there are the terms, "player's game" and "collector's game" qualities.
NIB games are NOT "player quality" games.

I realize some people do not know the difference, but they do eventually after overpaying a few times.

Stern is very clear on their market differentiation, and have started to $#!@ up again.
They need to buckle down quickly, or the risk a premature stall in the market.
That hurts everybody.

maybe they will add "Ghosting" and "Non-Ghosting" to Pro, Premium, and LE. More choices is better right?

the LE´s will realy GHOST

i am happy to have not ordered a LE

i hope they will fix the Problems before the premium run

I'm cancelling my GB premium order and will buy one a year or two down the road after these issues are shaked out. As someone else mentioned it seems like Stern switched playfield manufactures and are having major issues. I would not buy a recently made game from them right now, wait until the issues are resolved.

Why did Stern change from their proven playfield manufacturer if thats the case? To save a few bucks per playfield and let it all ride on a new company? To think they had the nerve to raise prices too. BS.

I understood it as the problems arose with the previous playfield supplier, using a new one for now to keep games moving, then making in house for the future when ready.

How much would a game cost if it was 2 years late had bad sound and the DMD had tearing?

How much would a game cost w/incomplete software?

See where Im going with this?

Obviously there have been some bad playfields that have gone out, and I hope the people affected get it taken care of by Stern. However no one knows what the percentage is. Was it one bad batch of a couple hundred playfields? One bad batch of 50? No one really knows but Stern, and they might not have a handle on the whole problem yet. Looks like the problems don't show up until a few weeks after, so it is not like Stern could've caught it QA.

Yes, cracked insert should've been caught. Bad QA 100%! Pitchforks! Hysteria! Or was it only slightly cracked or starting to crack and just didn't get noticed, then the crack spread during shipping? Human beings assemble and inspect these machines. Shit happens. Hopefully Stern will make it right, but it is not necessarily a sign of Stern's QA being terrible and haphazard.

But somehow over the course of the thread there is now some major issue with all recent playfields and it is due to them switching manufacturers, and they did that to save money per playfield. Oh, and Stern does no QA

I do fully agree with one thing though. If really nervous about it, by all means do not drop several thousand on a NIB. Wait for a nice HUO. Don't even buy NIB a year or two down the road, because something else could be wrong with it. Expecting 100% perfect out of the box and for it to remain 100% perfect for weeks/months down the road is not a realistic expectation with NIB pins.

"A lesson new collectors and owners should learn."
Of course, you have to understand history of comparative consumer products, which is not directly equal.

Not cancelling my Premium order. If I'm lucky I'll get mine by late July, but probably in August. I expect this issue to be resolved or mitigated.

No way I'm cancelling.

Agreed if they all had ghosting. But they don't. Only a tool would pay the same price for a not so nice machine as they would for a one with ghosting.

My collection ranges from machines built 1989 to 2003. Apart from CV which is known for it's severe ghosting problems none of them have any ghosting. At all. My CV PF was renovated 2 years ago because it was starting to fall apart. The inserts that had to be repainted (Jackpot & Ring inserts) are clear now and have - of course - no ghosting. Only the ones which were left original (and still have the milky hazed look) have some ghosting.
With all due respect to Vids expertise, I just don't believe that ghosting is only a matter of wood meeting plastic, but rather "wrong" handling, either due to humidity/temperature, not enough time to cure, sloppy prep or incompatible materials (glue, clear, plastic).

I'm not obsessed in any way about this topic and play the hell out of my games - without gloves....
But still, if I have the choice of getting the same machine with or without ghosting, I'll choose the one without. It does heavily affect resale value.

"Another lesson new collectors and owners should learn."

The difference is they do not do "recalls" on pinball machines, only technical bulletins (for operators) and replacement parts for defective parts that need to be installed (for operators). Stern is not sending a tech to a home, and unless you bought a special warranty from your distributor, they are not coming either.

"Learn to maintain and repair your machines, if you want to stay in the hobby. If you don't, you won't."

No.

Didn't you already cancel it (red DMD thread)?

No, I ended up keeping my order. I really want to get the game but these playfield issues are alarming and need to get worked out.

IFAICT, no one even has a playfield from the new supplier yet.

It could be months before anyone does.....

This is the worst kind of problem for a manufacturer since it appears to show up after the game is made and shipped, is not something that can be easily fixed, gets progressively worse over time and significantly affects game cosmetics and value if it gets really bad.

Hopefully it was just a bad batch and only a small number of playfields were affected, so Stern can afford to send those owners replacement populated playfields.

How much would you guys figure is the actual cost of producing 1 playfield?

$150?

Maybe "Ghosting" is a feature on the GB's?

Remember that the OP's machine is a SMVE.

Stern pays $200 per playfield to CCC in quantity 1000

Since when is this true? I know three collectors - long term and active collectors and players - that do not maintain or repair their own machines. Two rely on friends and another willingly pays for routine service.

I pay $$$ !!!!

I'm into cars too, and know shit about mechanics!

Stern's response to me for the insert bubbles has been "Thanks for the picture. I sent this to our quality managers."

I just hope these problems get worked out and or solved for affected customers. Stern is making some great designed games as of late. They are creating "Fun in a box". I am unsure of the reasons behind the quality of the playfields and the cabinet decal peeling issues, but have to wonder if it is pressure from the investors that helped bail out Stern. Are they trying to use inferior products to help profits and cut costs? When you get investors they expect growing returns on their investments. Is this the reason for all the shortcuts? Prices have increased quite a bit creating, I am sure, greater profits for Stern. The collector market has supported the price increases but if the quality doesn't keep to where it was I don't believe the collector market will continue to support the price increase as a whole and Stern will lose customers. Look at the above reactions, the sentiment is a lot of pinsiders will not chance buying a NIB now until these issues get worked out. Some are rolling the dice and will take their chances depending on lots of different scenarios.

Did they say they will get back to you on a resolution or was it thanks for the pics, see you later and enjoy your game as is?

See you later, and enjoy the game as is.

I don't know the specifics of your situation, but Stern isn't going to send a new playfield out automatically to anyone who has a complaint. Ghosting around the edges of the insert is a cosmetic issue. Depending on the severity they might not consider it an issue at all. Anyone having a concern should be going through their distribs (if not already) and having them rattle Stern's cage.

I had an X-men LE that had paint chipping around the Nightcrawler mechs after the first couple of months. I got it resolved to my satisfaction but it took some back and forth between my distrib and Stern.

So, how is that not a possibility of it being a bad batch then? You don't have numbers either of the number of defects, or the number of playfields that would be in one "batch", so you can't say anything with any certainty.

I get people being concerned, but the amount of angst and "sky is falling" going on in this thread in the absence of any real information seems even more extreme than usual for Pinside.

Had the same thing with X-Men LE Wolverine, & also the playfield looked like it had less clear than a pro. I found the steel cover was slightly off during manufacturing. If you looked at it, looked normal until you closely compared it. Took Stern almost 2 years to send me another, slightly abused new one. Better than nothing. Locally we had a Stern Pro shed most of the ink within months of operating. New unpopulated playfield was provided after complaining.

Even if it is just one bad batch (if that is the case) these playfields should not be used. If Stern offered these ghosting playfields for sale to you and knowing that they have ghosting would you purchase or want one to install in a game? The real information is they are being shipped with ghosting inserts from the factory which is not acceptable IMO.

Don't you agree that the absence of any real information will remain until Stern itself decides to release a statement about it?

This is the response I got from Stern on the last NIB I purchased that had clear coat issues on the playfield.

Below is a quote from the email Stern sent me in response after I sent them pics of my playfield:

"Considering the size of the hard coat bumps, this shouldn’t cause any problems. We have had games on test at various locations that have bumps the same size or even larger and it hasn’t been a problem."

Translation... Thanks for sharing the pics, we have seen worse... goodbye"

Can you post the pictures you sent them, pls? I'm curious

OK, so Stern's answer to "do you want a flawless machine?" is": "Send it to a restorer just like you do with a old B/W pin!"

I don't think anyone is asking for a flawless machine (I'm not), just consistent/decent quality. I don't want to hold my breath when I unbox an $8000 machine hoping that my decals are not peeling and my playfield clear coat doesn't have issues.

Ps. My first ac/dc had a hazy lower playfield, I never said a word to Stern about it.

Currency exchange does change that fast. It changed 30% over the past year alone. Hardly Stern's fault.

You have to stick with US pricing if you want to complain about Stern's price increases, to keep it apples to apples.

Oh lol , this is what 10 year olds do real classy.