Well i can flip words around like you and say your opinion stinks too if you want to play that game. But the fact is you misread my post. We've only seen one case of someone's playfield disintegrating and falling to pieces in multiple areas on a HUO machine, so yea my assessment seems accurate.

I already said multiple occasions this situation sucks and it sucks even more for people like KPG. But I was responding to JAR155 who continues to throw out absolute terms in such that Stern simply does not care. But as you've seen in his later post it's not necessarily stern that he has a problem with but a certain new hire.

I'm not here to go to bat for stern, I've voiced my frustrations with them more than once. I'm simply arguing that they do care about their product or they wouldn't have said that they're working on replacement programs and focusing on each pinball on a case by case basis. If they didn't care, they'd tell you to pound sand. But the FACT is they are coming up with replacement programs and FACT is I agree their communication sucks but the FACT they are doing replacement programs does show they care. The world doesn't revolve around pinside. There are happy replaced playfield owners out there, just ask their Facebook page. (That last sentence was a joke in case you missed it).

Basic communication would have avoided all of this for Stern & customers.

I appreciate the support man- I know you have seen my playfield in person - and its actually even worse than when you saw it if you can imagine lol

I think the reason people are saying and feel that Stern doesn't care is because the following:

1) Both myself and Trent from Tilt have emailed and called Stern several times in the past few weeks. We both have not been responded to. Trent got back to me and said Stern has yet to contact him back in a while about this. Stern isn't even showing their distro's like Trent any type of communication which is just absurd.

2) Quote from petition page: "Promised new playfield to replace my defective NIB SpidermanVE, which has significant insert ghosting since day 1, but poor communication and no action after months of waiting."

3) Quote from petition page: "My new in box Ghostbusters le was fine at first but after a few plays the ghosting started. After like 100 games the clear at a few inserts started to crack. Sended pictures to stern and my distributor. Word from my distributor still is that my playfield will be fully swapped this month. Problem is that they have to rely on Stern, but the communication on the whole playfield issue from Stern is very very bad. Even my distributor isn't getting any updates...... Still believe Stern will handle / fix this, but the way al this goes is very, very unsatifying to say the least....."

4) Quote from petition page: "I'm supposedly on a "list" to get my GBLE playfield replaced. My distributor gave Stern my information and haven't heard a peep for months."

5) Quote from petition page: "My NIB Ghostbusters LE experienced play field defects out of the box, electrical issues and all switches on the left ramp have yet to operate correctly since July 2016. Tech support stated it would be addressed during a play field swap out, but that was 6 months ago."

.. and many more

I know Stern has come through with other issues, such as some bad parts on my NIB MET and some other issues and Chas has been great.

The problem here I see is this playfield issue is probably one of their biggest failures, and huge in comparison to small problems out of the box.

Many people are not getting updates and many distributors are not getting proper communication by Stern. When you do not get proper communication, people lose faith and confidence and unless you are a super religious person- working off "faith" and "hope" just doesn't cut it. When Stern stopped responding to inquiries and the last thing said is "we no longer have a timeline, the program has been pushed back" then radio silence- I lose confidence in their ability and drive to make things right.

With their constant social media "cleansing" to keep a good image to keep those new releases pumped up to the masses- I started to think Gary only made those personal calls and promises to calm everyone down so it doesnt affect the next release.. seems like that was the case.

I am sure they appreciate the people that have come to their defense- but I would love to see them prove all us doubters and naysayers wrong- Stern, if indeed you want to make this right - MAKE A PUBLIC statement already. Your silence speaks volumes!

You are on a very small island right now and on tilt. You can barely get 100 people to sign the petition. I'm one of them.

Posting 24/7 and threatening legal action that is going nowhere isn't going to get it done.

At this point you are only making it worse for yourself. That's my advice for you.

Let the petition speak for itself. No need to comment non stop on Pinside. You are talking to the wrong F ing people.

Get on the phone with Stern and make yourself the nuisance you are here. These people can do nothing for you.

As an attorney, your mindset and attitude blow me away. I'd never hire you to represent me, but it seems you would make a great consumer law defense attorney... maybe you are trying to let Stern know by posting here you would like to defend them?

You have stated here you know nothing about consumer laws. Perhaps you should save your precious time that you spend posting here all day and get paid by your clients for your advice?

Because you will see shortly just how wrong you are, and how far something like this can go. Sorry Iceman. I like your posts here and respect you outside of this conversation, but you are absolutely incorrect and would be singing another tune if you were in my shoes or should I say *our* shoes.. the almost 100 people who have signed the petition, which I think is 100 *too many*.. and I don't care if we differ on the methods in which we would go about it. The fact is I get it and you have made yourself clear. Thanks, and please stay up to date on topic.

Has anyone looked up Stern's BBB record?

Its hilarious, rated a D-

https://www.bbb.org/chicago/business-reviews/pinball-sales-and-service/stern-pinball-inc-in-elk-grove-village-il-88304493

In all fairness, I do know that BBB is a joke though.. so not a big deal

The BBB is a joke. They are nothing more than a way to blackmail companies into paying a fee in order to be accredited by them.

Once you are "accredited" by them, they handle complaints against you completely differently.

As stated on the BBB site, "THIS BUSINESS IS NOT BBB ACCREDITED" which simply means that Stern didn't pay their ransom. If they had, I can promise you that their "record" would be much different.

I mean, I'm no Stern apologist, but let's be real. Of the four complaints you can read on BBB, two are crybabies with unrealistic expectations and the other two sound like retarded people.

You are right, I just read them. Total dumbasses lol

But yeah I refuse to pay BBB's fees whenever they call me to pay for it... but there's certainly no derogatory remarks on my record regardless. I have been in business for over 12 years, and our customer service is what keeps us in business. I might be a small business only doing a little over ~$1m in annual revenue, but I would certainly handle this much differently as they have.

I know we have some attorney's chiming in their opinions, but why no business owners? Business owners like me get pissed the most because we run our own operations and make DAMN sure our customers are 100% satisfied or we will make it right. So that's why I take it personal.

Keep losing then.

Sorry Kpg, but this is going NOWHERE and you will get your PF soon enough and it will have ZERO to do with the petition.

How much you want to wager?

The bigger bet is will the eventual replacement playfield be any better.

I love this... you really do not know me well.. I don't lose bets like this.

I'll go $2500 and I make a promise, as a man, I'll come through with payable via PayPal. I'm not opposed to you calling a raise on this either if willing to go higher. Don't pull some large number out either over 5 figures because you and I both know you won't pay that shit to me when you lose.

Since you decided to make this a betting game, let's fuckin do this!! I can never turn down a sure bet.

Here are the rules:

You win: This would mean there's no positive end result for us, that happens at an accelerated rate due to my efforts here, that began with my petition

You lose: Communication by Stern happens relatively soon, and accelerated by my efforts. We get more posts and pictures confirming new GBLE playfields and more people claiming to get more information from their Distributors, due to better communication. More people report calls or updates from Stern directly in a short amount of time (I'll give you those dates within a PM in case Stern wants to bet against me lol). Any type of positive response with an agreed time frame by Stern, due to increased awareness of my campaign. Any type of media publishing both on TV or on the internet. Any type of publicly filed press release and /or complaint, any type of legal correspondense published here on Pinside with images and/or scans of such correspondence as proof. Lawsuit in any form including class action. Any type of proof of legal filings, both public or private.

I'll think of some more

Let's do it... I can tell you have the money to cover a decently sized bet, so im willing to engage in one with you, I'm most definitely fine to cover whatever you want to reasonable agree on.

I would be happier with just the outcome, Stern is going to Communicate and replace, I would like them to do something 'exceeding expectations' to affected top-tier customers.....I leave it up to them.....I am a man of faith and a mens word but there is just no word.

For the Stern ARMY who believe they always make it right in the end I have a few questions?

1. When Kiss owners were told early last year code would fix features and inserts on game not working. Do you still think they will make this right as we approach year two or is this just another WOF........yes yes I know dead horse, but legitimate question.

2. GOT LE/PREM owners were told the left orbit issue had a mechanical issue they would resolve and they corrected this by rewriting code to "FIX" hardware issues. Is this acceptable?

3. For those who have games with one teeny tiny ghosting issue, but no worries it doesn't bother you so its ok. Do you honestly think a second hand buyer will buy your game over another one with NO ghosting?

4. If you were unfortunate enough to receive KPG's machine and are still waiting 6+ months for a fix would you still be defending Stern?

I get that a lot of people have had great experience from Stern in the past in resolving issues as I have as well. The fact is of late there most recent games have fallen short of their past games in several ways ranging from poor customer service in resolving mass issues to cheaply made parts falling apart. If you want to defend Stern go for it, but probably not on a thread where the majority of people are voicing their distaste in the way Stern has been operating of late.

I would also like to take advantage of this BET KPG is in on as well, but instead of money going into my pocket I would bet my $100 bucks on KPG's win to support pinside via donation.

My opinion about the after sales of Stern: it looks like it that issues that are not so costly can be approved by the guys that are helping with these issues. Something like a node board or a plastic or something. That is handled very good and quickly because the guys can make the decision themselves to send something to the customer.

As soon as there is a problem that is more costly like a playfield that has to be swapped, the tech guys have to get approval from somebody else and those guys just look at the cost, not caring about customers. Those instances get treated badly.

Again that is just my opinion and has no base whatsoever. I have no insight in how Stern does things, but that is how many of the after sales departments work. That would account for the contradictory opinions of people regarding how Stern treats you. So my personal thoughts about Stern: they will make it right, unless it gets too costly.

Another observation: Stern keeps their warranty based on the coin op industry so they do not fall under the laws of consumer rights, but then they are exhibiting on CES (CONSUMER electronics show). Hypocrits.

Totally agree!!!

You gave me a great idea.

Since Iceman initiated the idea of a bet, assuming he takes it, I will personally donate 50% of that bet to Pinside.

Assuming he takes the minimum bet of $2500, that's $1250 Pinside will receive. If he raises me, that's more Pinside will get. Hopefully Iceman will offer the same, but it's not as if he will win anyway lol.

I'll await Iceman's acceptance of the bet. I'm hoping he wants to raise me to $5K or more at this point, I know if it goes higher than $10K he'll probably come up with an excuse how I didn't win fair. We'll make this a public bet with all rules drawn out so people clearly know who the winner is. If he did want to go to $10K, that's $5K of Icemans money that will go back to Pinside. Robin would be happy with that!

So I know I'm chiming in 109 Pages late, but I'm just curious what people would think about an issue that I had in the past with Stern.

I owned a game, that many people on pinside made threads pertaining to pf issues. I was experiencing similar issues to those posting, so I made a phone call to stern. My game was barely a month old, and I was told that it was not covered under warranty.

This was almost two years ago, well before the GB fiasco.

I thought I was out of luck as I got a quick NO.

Just like in sales, you are only as good as your last quarter. Stern may have been the Mother Teresa of the industry several years ago, but with a new facility, additional employees, new investors - things change - and apparently for the worse and at the customer's expense.

After all of the empty promises on my KISS and witnessing the sh!t show with PFs, declining quality, increasing prices while decreasing features - I'm pretty much done with Stern and as others have said "my money will go elsewhere"

KPG, good luck with you mission and look forward to seeing the outcome of the bet.

You have to be kidding me! There are about 100 ways for you to win this. I win with "no positive end result for us", at an accelerated rate due to your efforts that begin with the petition. Wtf. Stern already knows full well about the petition.

There will be a positive end result anyhow and it won't be because of the petition.

If you and everybody else that don't have a PF and/or has any other issue that doesn't get fixed within 30 days, you lose. Every single one of them.

Another thing that is definitive is file suit or not. Let's put a wager on that one. It's either yes or no. And you have another 30 days from the date of the petition to get it filed, class action. Any dummy can file their own bogus suit.

Although i wouldn't be surprised if they try and make you eat those legal fees as well.

Lots of talk - not surprising

How are we supposed to know what to think about the issue that you are talking about if you won't tell us what the issue is? lol

Please post pics of your playfield

Any wager we make will go to charity.

Iceman I'm sure glad you finally got here. KPG has been up all damn night waiting on you to show up!

I know, I missed his proposal. Went out drinking! Up a little late today.

Here's the thing. I want what Kpg wants, that's why i signed the petition myself. Better communication about code and QC issues.

I think they have already started with the code effort by having BM66 owners sign up to be notified on code updates and new associated therewith.

I did not sign any petition so Kpg's lawyer could gather a group of people to file a class action suit. All we hear now are the rantings of the potential Plaintiffs, if its filed, Stern is allowed to hire its own lawyer and file its own answer, its not a one way street here.

The end result should be much better communication and everybody getting their issues fixed faster.

The wager on my rules:

There will be NO class action lawsuit filed within 30 days of filing the petition, 100 people in the class. $2500

If a class action lawsuit is filed, it will never go to trial and/or zero damages will be awarded. $7,500

As a result of the petition filed, Stern acknowledges every issue publicly and fixes every issue within 30 days. Every single one of them. $10,000. And i want your Metallica pin, if i lose you get my Ac/dc.

I have a better idea.

Why don't we make a positive statement on behalf of the community.

Let's put together a raise money for charity event. Let's say we get the total up to $25k or $50k

What reasonable things would we like for Stern to implement in the way of communication

IF they agree to implement them then we make the $50k donation to charity. Win win and fun thing to do.

Rather than antagonistic BS that won't go anywhere let's try this one.

I would hate to take Kpgs $$$

Btw, negotiating a deal, now you are in my wheelhouse big daddy

I appreciate the active discussion and everyone's support for those with playfield issues, as well as the effort to push Stern for a resolution.

However, this thread is starting to sound like "My daddy's stronger than your daddy."
"Nuh-uh, my daddy's so strong he can lift me up with one hand"
"Nuh-uh, my daddy's so strong he can lift up your daddy with one pinky"
etc.

Sorry about that. Was posted hastily.

No pics on hand at the moment, but it was with respect to inserts raising and playfield warping/planking.

Was a problem on a few titles back when Metallica started production. I've seen it on various titles and threads were made on pinside about it.

When I called to ask about a game I had pruchased, I was explicitly told nothing would be done.

Well if that really happened, and I'm not saying that it didn't.....I would have went to the factory and probably shoved that playfield up someone's azz and went to jail. That should absolutely 1000% be replaced with a new playfield. Did you call your distributor and try to get help through them also?

Maybe we all throw some money into a non profit pinball lobbying group, that gets us group buying power and group negotiating power.

Was not deemed warrantied. Distributor here in Canada is a monopoly. Horrible to deal with.

So much so, that I often go through us distros for most things, including warranty stuff.

Raising money for charity is always awesome. However, Stern should do right on their own because this is their screw up. Stern shouldn't get an incentive for fixing playfield issues, completing code, etc. Sterns incentive to make quality products with deep and unique code is the $5k-$12k people are dropping on their NIB games.

Ya think? This is about the communication complaints.

Rather than go into attack mode like a pack of animals maybe try another approach.

It's 2017 and Stern pinball is going to dominate. Anyone want to wager on that one? Let's work with

I guess Kpg must have gotten a tongue lashing from JD

Kpg is a good dude. Love the misplaced enthusiasm and excitement.

At least he isn't just a malcontent whiner. That I can respect.

I look at it as a hard headed mule/bull in a China closet approach. No offense intended

There is something to be said for understanding both sides of an issue though.

Have we gone dark per JD instructions?

When Judge Dredd tells you to go dark, you do what he says

KPG vs Iceman

IMG_0648 (resized).png

Honestly I am not in any feud w/ Iceman. I have always enjoyed his posts here, and he seems like a pretty intelligent guy and we'd probably have a great time playing pinball together.

We definitely do not agree on this particular topic and that is fine.

I am down for a beer and game of pinball w/ the guy when this is all said and done.. that is what being in this hobby is all about, right?

100% Kpg, we can argue it out and then hug it out! Beers and pinball, its all good.

I think KPG and Gary Stern should have a cage match and all proceeds go to charity. If KPG wins free playfields for everybody, if Gary wins everybody is screwed. I can see Gary busting a playfield over KPG's head right now! lol

And some popcorn I'm just teasing you guys anyhow hope you get your PF fixed ... I'm sure you will Stern is terrible with communication but eventually they come through .

Dang you guys are all going BM66 on us....BroMance 1966 style

Please see my post regarding my open letter to Gary Stern of Stern Pinball Inc., re: Defective Playfields here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/open-letter-to-gary-stern-re-defective-playfields#post-3547511

Nice touch bringing in the Harley. I work from time to time at my uncle's bike shop and customers expect perfection from their new rides.

It wouldn't do much damage to KPG as those play fields fall apart to easily

Yeah and KGP's head is way harder than a pinball also. Your talking serious playfield damage there!

That is the problem. KPG is now also helped by its distributor by buying back the machine. Stern did not do anything yet, or did not communicate their effort sufficiently to get noticed.
I still want to believe that Stern is making all things right but the deafening silence is testing my hopes and believe.

I have no skin in the game yet but love the thread.
I will be a nib buyer one day, if I'm lucky.

Hope you aint afraid of no ghosts. On a serious note, May the odds be ever in your favor.

Not sure why anybody would be enthusiastic about being a NIB buyer right now. With SMVE, GB, and B66 all having common quality issues, I would be very cautious going forward or look to pick up a used machine that's been put to the test for a while first. Too many lemons are coming off the line. I get being excited about a new game coming out, but secondhand sales come up fairly quickly. It makes so much more sense to skip the gamble.