One of my friends just purchased a NIB SMVE that has a ghosted insert, and someone else posted a GB Premium playfield from Dec with ghosting.

Your point?

What is the big deal to wait?

I'm sure everyone has their reasons.

Some people may be very anal about the condition of their games, and it may bug them they spent $8,000 of their hard earned dollars on a machine with manufacturing flaws.

Tell me - if you bought a brand new car you worked hard to purchase, and the paint started chipping and flaking off- would you be cool with that since it's not affecting how it drives?

What about those who want to resell it to move onto another game? Would you want to buy it from me for the same price as another GBLE that has a perfect playfield? Yep, didn't think so.

Everyone has their reasons. Mine is that I want to sell it, but I won't get nearly the amount it is worth with a defective playfield. Would you pay the same price for a machine that has a ghosted playfield vs one that doesn't? Didn't think so..

Car analogy, I wouldn't care less seeing the car is being replaced, I'd be doing long road trips and enjoying the car to the max. Selling the game, like I said extraneous circumstances, ok. Now are most ghosted pf owners selling, I don't think so. Stern aren't innocent here, but I won't base my business strategies/actions on the few but rather to get the majority off my back. Now has a solution been found re pf, none of you know I'm betting.

So I fall firmly into KPG's statement. I'm very anal about the condition of my games, cars and just about anything else. I do the research and expect what I pay for. When purchasing a NIB game(car or thing-a-ma-jig), it must be free of manufacturing defects. As a consumer, you are purchasing a new item in unused condition void of defects or signs of use. That's why it's new. Stern sells new items which, as such, carries the expectations from consumers that your new game will work, be free of defects or scratches, etc... Rather than blast folks for being picky, maybe Stern should just fix their QC issues? Kind of like that poor dude in the recent Stern tour video with Jody who was doing QC on a play field light box looking for defects, but had to search for the plug and plug it in on camera. Makes me feel *real* secure about the commitment to quality.

I recently purchased a British vehicle to only discover the port made a small paint repair to an area not in immediate view. This was unknown to the dealer, but upon discovery the dealer unwound the deal, ate the loss and apologized profusely with a commitment to make it right. Why, because the 4" paint repair devalued the car by about $20K, it's the right thing to do and the car was sold without defects - it was new. The same arguments hold true for purchasing a new pinball. It should be in new condition, or price the damn things accordingly as sloppy second editions and reduce the price a bit.

Just different levels of service, but one entity owning the issue and another not embracing open communication. The lack of communication has placed consumers in a mindset they must seek legal remedies to resolve. Feel bad for the distributors as they are stuck in the middle.

Dare I ask on what car (or paint color) a small, not easily seen paint repair (properly done) devalued it by 20k??

Regardless of the value loss on any item, I'd agree that if it's new, you have every right to demand the highest level of standards. That said, many manufacturers have instituted tolerances like dead pixels and similar defects as normal. Not that this should apply to your car's paint or ghosted inserts, but if this continues I do see Stern eventually defining more specifically what is considered normal.

"NIB" ordered Aston Martin. Custom ordered paint code - a small area was missing a portion of clear that caught your finger.

I agree with your thoughts on defining tolerances as this is a standard practice in manufacturing. With that said, the tolerances must be consumer value added without impacting the overall performance or operation of the end product. If a Stern employee doodled a smiley face with a cute note wishing you the best with your new game, that could arguably be value added. Shipping games with known defects, not okay and very much not value added as you've pissed off your consumer base to the point of pushing legal remedies. My .02 and I certainly hope Stern can restore the faith in us who have received defective games.

Maybe you want one of these PF's instead? Whoops

JJP (resized).jpg

What is that? damage around a magnet? what game?

Well that would be a newly placed DI on location i believe.

Kind of looks like Woz PF's i've seen around the tree pop bumpers.

Yep it is a test game, something stern seems to have stopped doing as it is probably more profitable for them to let the customers do the testing.

But but but.......I thought JJP machines were much higher quality? Now I'm really confused! Unbelievable!!!

They need to use those magnets Stern has switched to that have the second outer metal ring to prevent that

Didn't they patent those?

Sometimes shit just happens with PF's, doesn't matter where they come from.

Woz2 (resized).jpg

Woz1 (resized).jpg

Well at least this machine looks like it EARNED that damage in the wild. Which used to be the their purpose in life back in the day.

Now if this happened in somebody's living room...well.... then we'd grab the pitchforks

That damage occurred after 4000 plays according to the owner.

JJP had some real PF issues. My pf has some chipping in the saucers.

Why didn't they whip out the mylar at the first chip instead of letting it get so bad?!

Do you understand the difference between a single "test" machine with a single issue, and a "final product" that continues to be shipped to customers in mass quantities, with KNOWN design flaws and defects, as well as an unfinished and bugged computer code?

If so, you may be wise to hold off on comments regarding JJP quality until the "final product" has shipped. Unlike another major pinball company who expects the final user to also double as the beta tester.

Don't get me wrong, I've suffered my fair share of JJP failures, and plenty of them. Just today I had to pull the driver board out of a WOZECLE and replace a 540IRL transistor that shorted, which of course subsequently fried the trough VUK solenoid.

It has also been my experience that JJP playfield build & clear quality is no where near the high quality of Stern's..... until recently, of course. The playfield on my WOZ RRLE is pretty much destroyed after only 11,000 plays. Looks just like the pictures of @iceman44. Mine is even worse around the 4 pop bumpers. While the playfields on my Iron Man VE at 24,000 plays, and my AC/DC Pro at 16,100 plays, always polish up like new when they get cleaned & waxed.

No comparison..... until recently, of course.

Wow that's good to know. It will be many many years, if ever, before i get 24k plays on any of my pins.

So it's not a problem until its a problem. Stern better reverse this PF BS.

My WOZ has well over 7k plays and the PF is good. It is not a mirco PF but seemed to be one of the non problem ones, it has mylar. There is some dimpling though but it is getting smoothed out over time It has been playing better with more play. It does take a fair amount of adjustments (not breakages just tweaks) to keep it playing as it should. Biggest issue lately is that with more play a number of switches are too sensitive so I find I have switches closing too easily. I will put up pictures in a few months when it has been on location for a year and I rotate it home.

When I look at some of my older games they must have had 10's of thousands of plays and the PFs still look great. A PF should look pretty perfect with 10k games unless you are using bad balls.

Edit: ExtremePibnball you just made me very nervous!

That's true Clg. A nicked ball can cause a ton of damage in a short period of time

You guys that route these games provide some great helpful insight. Thanks!

Since I got my game I am lucky to not see the ghosting or chipping. But it's the only thing I own besides vehicles that I am constantly looking for a ding. Every time I go by that machine I plaster my face to the glass to see if it's ok. Paranoia at its finest. I am still on 1.05 code. I'm literally frozen!!!

Great visual.

Prototype game. Maybe if Stern did the same thing they would have known about their recent playfield issues!

I don't think I would say single test machine because that's not the only bad JJP playfield that I've seen. Do you understand the difference between sarcasm and someone being serious? My post was a joke actually so you may be wise to hold off making stupid comments to people until you understand the difference! But anyway while we are here, I would actually expect JJP's quality to be outstanding as much as they want people to pay for their machines, but they aren't. They have had plenty of issues with their machines playfields and electronics both.

Is the WOZ pictured above a "prototype game" also? Or is it that JJP can do no wrong in your eyes?

Stop. Go away. You're the exact opposite of helpful and nobody trusts you.

if your happy to wait for however long... go for it, keep flipping.... others such as KPG, have their reasons to have this resolved sooner rather than later. usually consumer law would command a full refund, but i guess pinball is another story ....
a solution re pf?... who would ever be told anyway ?

I said way back in this thread that Stern's 'limited warranty' isn't worth a fart in Europe. In fact, in light of their stringent cost cutting they would be well advised to remove it from the manual and save a piece of paper.

You dodged a bullet on that anyway! Had a DB9 a few years ago, loads of electrical issues, in and out of the dealer, until 24th of December (a few years ago) it conks out dead, no lights, no hydraulics, nada in the middle lane of one of the busiest roads in London (A406). AM dealer bought it back for what I'd paid plus a token compensation payment. From what I learned during the time, all of them have little niggles that would frankly drive me nuts, so moved on from that.

For me the issues is stern promised something to take the heat out of the debate and don't appear to be following up - not acceptable - someone like stern's future growth is all on word of mouth and they can't afford to have that they suck as word of mouth, it's called NPS and the basic rule of that is you can't have detractors out in the wild that are seriously pissed off, its the worst thing for a business.

For kpg having gone to the extra expense of buying a LE and then getting this shit, can you imagine that in any other scenario?

Neil.

That's what worries me a lot, the uncertainty of the situation, will my GB suddenly crap out and ghost like hell 12 months from now? Mine is perfect so far...

Why take the risk, play on location, and if you love it buy it HUO with complete code in a couple years. If we all stop chasing the new shiny Stern will learn a lesson

I doubt it seriously. I bought a GOT that was built when the bad playfields were being built and it had me pretty worried. I've played over 600 games on it and it still looks great. I'm not worried about it anymore and convinced that it wii be fine. No ghosting, no clear coat chipping, nothing.

Hmmmmm, finally I got someone to say it. Now why did you not complain to AM manufacturing direct or better the shipping company. Sue them. No because you paid your money to a dealer who does make some profit for the pleasure of selling you a car. So why are people trying to deal or go the manufacturer and not as you guys call them distros. Let me guess these guys just like giving these games away for zero return. Has anyone suggested to their distro, 'I want my money back or I sue YOU'? I am sure these guys don't have as deep pockets or patience as stern. Send a distro or two to the wall or close to it and see if they continue to not go into bat for you. But I forgot they're nice guys and they have passed on your photos to stern and those bastards are ignoring them. GREAT EXCUSE and ok to many here. Oh where did all the post gb's with ghosting come from? Let me guess stern sold them direct as your nice distros refused to take your money....right??? Maybe Gary didn't know of the problem until last week too.

So has anyone, in writing, actually put a request to their distro on what will appease the deal and in what time frame? If not, why not?

Maybe a few worried distros might get some action going a little quicker than bitching here and think Stern are reading 5000+ posts.

Sorry if I have offended those really concerned gb owners but I truely believe a lot of grand standing is being done by a few that have no intent going Stern or their distro. Just like water, why do you not go the path of least resistance?

But the again what do I know.

Also to the photos from jjp etc with faults, didn't medievals have a ghosting problem way back when? Is there anyone here with one will to sell me one for a few less than what I see them going for?

My point, a great title will command a good price no matter what in this hobby. A pristine example obviously will command even more.

Any NIB pin should be pristine OOB (out of box).

Not sure how the JJP comparisons came up. Worn playfields with thousands of plays are much different then a NIB machine with a couple dozen plays chipping and ghosting.

But if I did want to compare, I had bought a Hobbit two months before my GBLE and the playfield was perfect and much much higher quality then GB's. No sign of ghosting or chipping, anything. It even dimpled less. My GBLE looks like the surface of the moon compared to my other machines, likely due to how crazy the air balls are. But dimpling isn't the problem as it's expected on any pinball machine.. the manufacturers defects are the problem as I've stated.

Some very very early WOZ's had playfield issues. JJP switched playfield manufactures years ago. The issue sucked but it was their first pinball machine ever, they learned from it and again the issue was corrected years ago.

Stern though is the worlds oldest and largest manufacturer of, etc. I wouldn't expect Stern to have the same problems as that of a company when they were making their first pinball machine.

With 30 years of experience Stern should be the leader in QC. However, that's not the case for Stern and instead they seem more focused on increasing their bottom line by reducing quality, code support, and features.

"the manufacturers defects are the problem as I've stated"

Stern is replacing the "defects" as you know. You can grill steaks on top of your GBLE, play it 5k plays more and you still get a newly populated PF.

Extreme pinball says his RRWoz is garbage after 11k, how does that make you feel, while his Iron ManVE after 24k and Ac/dc pro after 16k look great.

My Woz PF has issues with chipping.

Hopefully Stern will reverse the PF issues, time will tell, or they will pay for the "defects" simple as that.

I will never forget the "light table incident" from the recent Stern tour video. "QC guy" was checking playfields on a light table with the light not even plugged in or set up to be used in any regular manner.

Thats the entire reason I'm posting here still - I *dont know* if they are replacing it. I was told months ago they would, and that I'd have a playfield in October - direct from Gary's Stern.

It's now Jan 2017 and I don't want to keep playing it. I want to sell it.. and I have no idea if they are going to replace it at this point, as they went from giving me an idea as to when I'll get the PF to now not knowing and claiming the replacement program was "pushed back".

Sounds like they are trying to sweep the issue under the rug to me.

A friend of mine recently sold his GBLE with lots of ghosting and took a $500 loss. Not too bad of a hit to get rid of a game with a bad playfield. He was happy to see it go.

Terrible first Stern NIB experience for him, he won't be buying another one.

Stern should send him a check for $500 then

In my situation, I am looking at a $1500+ loss based on my playfield condition. But, its not the idea of losing money here. It's the principal. I could take the loss and move on.. then Stern wins, and I have done nothing for the rest of the pinball community in the same position as me. I want to see Stern make this right for not just me, but anyone else affected by this and (thus far) lied to about getting a PF replacement in a timely matter.

I don't think you need to explain yourself further... you're 100% on the mark
.

Best summarize as this

nib-ghosting (resized).jpg

And this is the reason I haven't already purchased an Aerosmith Pro or Premium.

I know you have been waiting a long time.

I'm under the assumption that there is zero chance it can or will be swept under the rug.

The communication has always blown with all of these guys.

It especially sucks for the people that do want to sell it now like yourself

That's all fine and dandy but many would rather not assume.

I know you are the #1 JJP fanboy and apologist.

And the Stern bashing is broken record over and over again.

Shit happens. Samsung phones catch on fire. They either fix it or go out of business

You just saw a brand new DI PF look like garbage.

You just heard a big route operator give the status of the shit RRwoz PF after 11k plays

So it's NOT just very very early PF issues with JJP.

Lose the cut and paste JJP talking points you have on file