Unfortunately it doesn't matter - the buyer can just claim anything is wrong and PayPal will typically decide claims in their favor. You could write 100 pages on a pinball machine's condition and still lose the case.

I supposed there's not much you can do about someone saying they didn't receive the item. I had a playfield shipped to me and it said delivered and never was, ended up at my neighbor's house down the road from me. Went to the post office and raised hell only to find out that a new delivery guy got the address mixed up. Pain in the ass but it worked out for me, thank god. Can't hardly blame that on the seller, if the post office delivers it somewhere else.

Well if that's the case... then that a shame. I just have never had any of these issue come up. Maybe I am lucky. Hopefully it stays that way.

Just bought another playfield from a fellow pinsider who is in the Netherland. Used paypal, I have a tracking number and everything seems good so far, so we'll see what happens. I'm more worried about it getting damaged in the trip.

Doesn't matter, a scammer just needs to imagine there is some deficiency and your done.

Paypal actually went into my savings account and took the money back after the "buyer" reversed charges at his local bank.

Paypal needs to be under strict banking laws which they are not, they operate in a gray area and have gotten away with it for years.

Scammers take advantage of this and as long as PP gets their percent they don't care. They were well aware the person who attempted to defraud me was abusing their system. The rep who admitted this to me on the phone got in some trouble for revealing this fact. The guys name was all over the 'net like a rash, one forum even had pictures of his address and house if anyone was inclined to stop in for a visit.

This wasn't a once or twice even, the guy had done it dozens of times.

I'll do PP with people I trust and are in good standing, otherwise cash on the glass.

That's hard to do if the item is hundreds or thousands of miles away and you really need it or want it.

Totally agree on not blaming the other person if it is a TRUE mistake, but it doesn't seem fair for PayPal to blame me either right? Especially when I actually provided some documentation to support my side of the case.

Also agree. I am sure most people never have an issue, but I did...fool me once...

Like I said, I don't think my way is "better" but it is "my way". I have sold a few games in the past year and have one listed now and have had no trouble getting a cash buyer in a reasonable time. Maybe I'm limiting my market, who knows, but I also would rather just have the game longer and minimize the risk of something going bad.

Credit card dispute

There are other alternatives than Paypal.

I am sure that is true, but how many accounts does a guy have to have to deal with folks on line?

Don't use the one that will shaft you at the first opportunity when making a large purchase or sale.

You can disregard peoples experience with Paypal if you like ...

I feel bad for the people that have had a bad experience with paypal. It's just too bad that some folks take advantage of others. I guess that's the way it is.

And the more money there is to be made, the more bad characters will move in on the action.

I recall an old article where a robber, might have even been Billy the Kid was asked why he robbed banks.

"Its where the money is" was the reply.

You don't need any accounts if you want to buy my Black Knight! Bring cash and we can load her up!

In a weird twist, I just did my very first Paypal claim in the 15+ years I have been using it. I paid for a subscription service (6 months). The service ended (by the seller) 1.5 months in. I put a dispute and asked the seller for a pro-rated return, he said no returns. I said ok. fire me 1/2 my money back. He said ok. I reminded and requested the money twice. no reply. So I brought it up a level at Paypal. in the thingy you have to fill out, I asked for 1/2 my money back. They sided with me and returned 100% of it.

The point I'm making is you could have a hollywood film of your game , and if the buyer is not having a good day and something so minuscule sets them off, they can file a claim with PayPal and you must bow to them...

If the buyer really wants the game they will show up with cash. If PayPal was the dealbreaker... Sounds phishy or maybe they were trying to buy on their credit card. /shrug. A cash buyer will come along.

There's nothing inherently "fishy" about wanting to use Paypal. Maybe the guy was military and banks at USAA (all online) like I do? I could never come up with more than $600 at a time unless I stocked up for days, or had the money from my last pinsale sitting around.

I did eventually open up a local account just for pins and poker but it doesn't have $5000 in it all the time either. Before I did, I didn't have any way to deposit large sums of cash into our main account and it was a pain in the ass.

Curiosity is getting the best of me....so how did it all turn out?

It's actually even worse than that. I sold a phone on ebay, the buyer used it for a month, decided he didn't want it anymore, made a fake claim with paypal and got his money back. When he sent me the phone back it was very visibly worn and damaged. I submitted pictures of it in a counter claim with paypal saying the phone is now worthless because he ruined it and paypal didn't care, they literally told me "These things happen" and ruled against me. So with paypal a buyer can take your item, use it, ruin it, and send you back a now less valuable item and there is zero you can do about it.

^^This^^
I had a close friend of mine sell his documented HUO Truck Stop to someone on ebay. He got top dollar (at the time) for it, IIRC ~$3000.00. He had shipped it thru Pilot Air. Buyer received it in about a week and confirmed that. Money was transacted via PayPal. All was perfect for about 6 weeks and then he gets a claim notice from PayPal claiming "item not as described"....they yanked $3000.00 from his account and began their kangaroo court system of "investigation".
Long story short, they buyer claimed that at some point, the playfield glass must've been broken because there were hairline scratches on the playfield. It took him a month & a half to concoct this "defect".
My friend gave in and said to ship the pin back and all will be forgotten. He said, "No-YOU come & get it !" Keep in mind this was located in TX and he's in CT. Bottom line, PayPal refunded the buyer and he got to KEEP the pin, and my buddy is out 3K PLUS the pin!
Paypal is an excellent medium for scamming people, believe me.

Wow! Crazy stuff. I guess I am lucky, bought and sold many pins with PayPal, never an issue.
On the other hand, I talk to buyer and seller. Find out who they are... If I get bad vibes, I back off. Happens rarely but it happens.

I’ve had great results with PayPal and have lost 1800 dollars on a transaction that went bad and the guy got to keep the musical instrument. I prefer cash for large transactions.

Cash on the Glass

I’m not a seller so pardon my ignorance, but I keep my paypal linked to a credit union account where the min balance is $5 (Penfed). I only move cash there when I want to buy something. Seems like PayPal can’t take your money back if the linked account only has $5 in it. What am I missing?

This is why you ALWAYS keep cash on hand. Never leave home without.

John

For 3k, thats worth a plane trip and knock on the door.

Or offer it up for cheap on here to a TX buyer, being up front that they have to get it from "The eBay Jerk". Somebody would take it and have a story to tell.

My sentiments exactly.

You can’t do charge backs with PayPal “friends and family”. So, once you get paid, you’re all good. I think it’s pretty safe as a seller.

I'm sure grateful for 2 things:

1. All the sellers who have let me use PayPal without having ever met IRL.

2. That I've never gotten screwed with PayPal.

I dread the day it happens.

After all these years, 16 for me in the hobby, there is still a lot of ignorance regarding PayPal Friends and Family.

This is exactly how it works:

First of all you are committing Fraud if you send or receive a Friends and Family payment with someone you don't really know.

If a payment is sent through PayPal Friends and Family, the buyer can no longer file a dispute through PayPal, and if the buyer used funds from within their PayPal account you are totally safe.

However, most of the time the buyer funds the payment with a credit card or bank account, and in those cases the buyer can still file a dispute with the bank or credit card company. With credit card companies the buyer has up to 6 months to file a dispute, and with banks the buyer has up to 2 months to file a dispute depending on the bank.

Once a dispute is filed, the money will immediately be taken from the Seller's PayPal account, and the seller will then be given an opportunity state their response to the buyer's claim. In 99% of the cases they will side with the buyer, so the seller should plan on losing their money regardless of how ridiculous the buyer's claim may be. If the seller already spent or transferred the funds away from PayPal, PayPal will then go after the seller's bank account on file, or attempt to charge it to a credit or debit card the seller has on file.

In the end if this happens to you, expect the money to be taken away (never to return), and your pinball machine to be stranded far away in another state (with you having to pay shipping to get it back). Thankfully this has not happened to me, but I know a few people that have had this happen to them.

The moral of this is, do not take PayPal Friends and Family payments from someone you don't know.

I had a friend who sold an arcade game once, and shipped it to someone... it was paid via credit card. Shipping too. The shipping charges were $400 or so.

Anyways, buyer says it broke, and he wants a refund. Files a chargeback on his Mastercard. Mastercard gives him a full refund on the entire item, shipping and all, told my friend if he shipped the customer a 'pre paid box' to have it shipped back in, the buyer would return the item.

There is virtually 0 protection for sellers if you take credit cards, paypal, or anything similar. If the buyer wants to charge it back the credit card company will side with them everytime. It's part of doing business, you will be ripped off by someone from time to time.

Pinball machines are hot right now. Really hot. It's a sellers market and has been for years. There is no reason as a seller, especially a private sale, to accept paypal. If the first guy won't pay cash the next guy will. I just don't see people having trouble selling pinball machines right now.

Ok, but why would you use a credit card with F&F when you'll end up paying the 2.9% fee anyway if the point is to avoid the PP fees? Just use goods and services and you'll get the PP protection built in (plus your CC if you need it)

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Normally PayPal fees are applied to the seller, not the buyer. A seller may want to use F&F to avoid the fees while having some extra peace of mind when selling to a stranger. The buyer will then front the fees if they choose to pay with a credit card. It's a reasonable compromise for the buyer because of the convenience of being able to pay with a credit card as opposed to cash.

I have done several transactions for pins via PayPal and have had no issues, but to friends and acquaintances only. I wouldn't trust it with strangers.

They will pull your Paypal balance negative and then send you to collections.

I agree to all of your points essentially. But I just to clarify for the buyers out there, if seller removed money from PP & linked account(s) then has a dispute opened, the funds are not always immediately taken from anywhere. You can be stuck in dispute purgatory for a while as a buyer, or have a seller "refund" you while not having the funds to clear the payment. Thus you win the dispute but receive nothing for a while. Just had the later, which took 3 attempts to pull from the seller's bank account, nearly a month to recoup funds for an item that was never shipped, only a label created. It took "reaching out" to their family members, to prompt the seller to actually give me my money.

Moral of the story, be careful with Paypal in any capacity.

OK, pretend it's 1995. There was no PayPal. How did we do it then? It was cash, MO or check. PayPal has become the go-to thanks to Ebay, but it doesn't have to be.

PayPal allows you to pay someone for a pin with a credit card. Duh

....and with that comes risks.

It's called the human risk. Anytime a human is involved, your at risk.

Checks can be forged, cash can be counterfeit, MO can be a pain too. I've experienced all of these. PayPal has had by back more times then I like. And has made many of my recent pin purchases and sales easy and worry free.

Yeah, but it is a hell of a lot easier to rip someone off with a PayPal than counterfeit money, the other methods you mentioned, or even physically stealing. I could literally buy a machine tonight, then open a B.S. dispute and get my money back. It is very low risk. The only chance you take in this scam is you might get stuck with the machine you bought for the price you paid. I don't think there is an easier way out there to steal.

Yup, plus if someone did go to the extreme of counterfeit cash they would still have to face you in person to pull it off whereas with paypal someone can rip you off easily from anywhere in the world with nothing more than a keyboard.