(Topic ID: 300745)

Here's a Tip - Don't Buy A Flip!

By Ecw0930

32 days ago


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  • Latest reply 20 days ago by Tranquilize
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    There are 110 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
    #51 31 days ago

    The guy paying a few extra thousand was not siting on a pinball forum day after day waiting to pounce on the NEW LE pin that seemed to sell out in a few hours (75% at msrp and 25% at a bit of a gouge). He was probably working. After seeing the stream and gameplay video he decides to buy at a premium due to the sell out. Do you think this guy cares? And im sure the price for it is not going to drop much if at all. Heck if this pin is good it may be worth 16 by Christmas. There is not a single collector today that overall "lost money" on pinball so lets get real guys. Even if you bought the Turd here and there and lost 1k on it we all know your still up big time. Part of the reason this hobby is doing so well.

    #52 31 days ago
    Quoted from Manimal:

    ...just don't count on them for long term investments.

    Pinball is not an investment. If thats the interest you already lost. If there is no quantity allocation there is no pumped up "investment" theory. People just buy what they like and the world is happy.

    #53 31 days ago

    Except once they stop the run, you now have a custom that no one else has, and the after market prices will still be all over the place. Imagine advertising you have the only lizard skin paint job that Stern did on the Godzilla pin.....or maybe one of 10 known, etc.......so long as people have money to throw at anything they deem limited, they will do it. It's just like the white-woods that float around and go for a premium....I have never understood the attraction to those and what makes them special other than they are something that no one else has. Many aren't even complete, but they get snapped up fast.

    No company will ever do this "one off" type of thing without a significant bump in pricing. I work for a manufacturing company (of sorts) and there will NEVER be a way to make one off's cost effective enough to sustain taking individual orders like that. Plus if it's custom, it has to be for the right person to resell it anyway. Custom is NOT what the Sterns of the world will do.

    #54 31 days ago
    Quoted from jawjaw:

    Why does everyone just focus on LE prices as if that's the only game you can buy? They are limited to raise demand by design. If you don't like the limited madness then just buy a premium.

    The issue is.... it trickles down and effects ALL of the machines.

    People know the Premium is an LE without a signature. So they think it's worth an LE price. So they see $14k and say well hell, i've got a premium so $13k. Then the guys with pros are like well shit, my game is almost exactly like a premium minus one or 2 toys, so i'll list it for $9k.

    And the guy that wants these pins, at any trim level, needs to sell his and needs the extra so is 2013 machine is no a $7500 asking price because he NEEDS to buy a new one. And NEEDS to pay the inflated pricing caused by the LE guys, that caused the Premium guys, that caused the pro guys..... you get the picture.

    Until we collectively stop buying from flippers (and the distributors who overprice) this will just continue to go nuts and price the honest hobbyists out of the markets and leave pinball for elitists. And that sucks.

    #55 31 days ago
    Quoted from CrisCrow:

    why would any company want to do this? what benefit is there for them? if it was me id be happy that my product was next to unobtainable and people were charging and paying double what I initially charged. means I was successful

    Because a business will want to make as much money as possible. They can see how much they are reselling for. And the demand is there.

    One way to make this settle down would be for the manufacturers to raise their LE prices substantially (ALMOST to the level of the NIB flippers) and substantially increase the number of them. LE doesn't mean it has to be limited to 1000. Why not sell 5000 of them if you can and raise the price 25%?

    They only build them once they are ordered and someone else mentioned if they only sell 75% of them then they just don't make the last 25%. They don't lose money at all. In fact the COMPANY makes money instead of the NIB flippers. Which, theoretically, can afford the manufacturer to make better games, more games, pay their employees more money, etc etc. If their biggest margins are on LE's then they will make even more selling less. (less work, less everything, more profits)

    The BEST thing would be for the Sterns of the world to make a HIGH number of LE's and jack the price 25-30%. Leave the pros and premiums where they are. Make LE's on an order basis only. This will NOT trickle down to premiums and pros because of the enormous price difference. It will also free up time and workers on the manufacturing line to pump out as many pros and premiums as they can sell. (does this sound familiar? Looking at you Spooky). Then these "elitist", gotta have it, will pay anything for it, people can buy their LE's and pay the COMPANY for them. It will also not price out the normal Joe Shmoe hobbyist that just wants a Mando or Godzilla for his family because his family are huge Star Wars fans or his sons love Godzilla.

    Read it all over again and let it sink in.

    #56 31 days ago

    The flippers are coming!

    -1
    #57 31 days ago

    First of all, OP should be commended for learning from the failed war on drugs and not titling his thread "Here's the Deal, Don't Flip a Buy." You've got the right idea attacking the demand side and not the supply side.

    But it's still hard to get too excited about Stern LE prices. This kind of opportunism is annoying if you're in the LE market, but it exists in pretty much every collectibles market. And people will eventually stop buying flips, but it will be because the market has cooled back down, not as part of some coordinated plan to stick it to the flippers.

    #58 31 days ago
    Quoted from Ecw0930:

    Because a business will want to make as much money as possible. They can see how much they are reselling for. And the demand is there.
    One way to make this settle down would be for the manufacturers to raise their LE prices substantially (ALMOST to the level of the NIB flippers) and substantially increase the number of them. LE doesn't mean it has to be limited to 1000. Why not sell 5000 of them if you can and raise the price 25%?
    They only build them once they are ordered and someone else mentioned if they only sell 75% of them then they just don't make the last 25%. They don't lose money at all. In fact the COMPANY makes money instead of the NIB flippers. Which, theoretically, can afford the manufacturer to make better games, more games, pay their employees more money, etc etc. If their biggest margins are on LE's then they will make even more selling less. (less work, less everything, more profits)
    The BEST thing would be for the Sterns of the world to make a HIGH number of LE's and jack the price 25-30%. Leave the pros and premiums where they are. Make LE's on an order basis only. This will NOT trickle down to premiums and pros because of the enormous price difference. It will also free up time and workers on the manufacturing line to pump out as many pros and premiums as they can sell. (does this sound familiar? Looking at you Spooky). Then these "elitist", gotta have it, will pay anything for it, people can buy their LE's and pay the COMPANY for them. It will also not price out the normal Joe Shmoe hobbyist that just wants a Mando or Godzilla for his family because his family are huge Star Wars fans or his sons love Godzilla.
    Read it all over again and let it sink in.

    The reason people pay more for the LE is that it is limited. Spooky limits their total production of a game, hence they can do what you suggest. Stern does not.

    #59 31 days ago

    I generally agree... but at what point do we stop calling it a flip?

    1) You buy it - only with the intention of selling it for a profit.
    2) You buy it - change your mind and sell for a profit?
    3) You buy it - want it - but someone offers you a trade for a game you want more?
    4) You buy it - play it for 2 weeks and then sell it for a profit?
    5) You buy it - play it for 2 months and sell it for a profit?
    6) You buy it - play it for 6 months and sell it for a profit?

    I think we all agree that #1 is a flip.... but how far down the list do we go before it is "ok" to sell at a profit?

    I have Godzilla LE ordered, and am super excited for it... but if someone were to offer a trade for a EHOH LE.... I'd probably break out into a cold sweat!

    #60 31 days ago
    Quoted from DBLM:

    The reason people pay more for the LE is that it is limited. Spooky limits their total production of a game, hence they can do what you suggest. Stern does not.

    Out of the 5 people I know that buy LE's. Not a single one of the cares that it is a limited production game. They just want the top of the line game with all the extra's and willing to pay more for it.

    #61 30 days ago
    Quoted from NC_Pin:

    I generally agree... but at what point do we stop calling it a flip?
    1) You buy it - only with the intention of selling it for a profit.
    2) You buy it - change your mind and sell for a profit?
    3) You buy it - want it - but someone offers you a trade for a game you want more?
    4) You buy it - play it for 2 weeks and then sell it for a profit?
    5) You buy it - play it for 2 months and sell it for a profit?
    6) You buy it - play it for 6 months and sell it for a profit?
    I think we all agree that #1 is a flip.... but how far down the list do we go before it is "ok" to sell at a profit?
    I have Godzilla LE ordered, and am super excited for it... but if someone were to offer a trade for a EHOH LE.... I'd probably break out into a cold sweat!

    That is not a flip AND a great way to do pinball sir! Hell yeah you should do that.

    Quoted from arcademojo:

    Out of the 5 people I know that buy LE's. Not a single one of the cares that it is a limited production game. They just want the top of the line game with all the extra's and willing to pay more for it.

    This is my point. LE is the top of the line. Like say a GT for a car might be. They want the top, the best. They don't care if 100 or 1,000,000 are made.

    Which is how any business would keep their costs down, while making the most profits raising the prices to maker demand. Car companies do it now. Mass production means lower cost of build, yet does not demand lower pricing. Demand demands that. And there is plenty NIB demand.

    The manufacturer can set this, but it's the customer that has to stop buying a flip. Stop over paying because of your daggum FOMO.

    #62 30 days ago
    Quoted from NC_Pin:

    I generally agree... but at what point do we stop calling it a flip?
    1) You buy it - only with the intention of selling it for a profit.
    2) You buy it - change your mind and sell for a profit?
    3) You buy it - want it - but someone offers you a trade for a game you want more?
    4) You buy it - play it for 2 weeks and then sell it for a profit?
    5) You buy it - play it for 2 months and sell it for a profit?
    6) You buy it - play it for 6 months and sell it for a profit?

    #1 is the HONEST way of defining a flip. And what I intended this thread to point at.

    #2 is the dishonest way to say you aren't flipping, unless you are being honest.

    #3 is your example for EHOH and I don't consider that a flip at all.

    #4-6 I don't consider flips as they have been played.

    This was intended for the NIB flipping crowd.

    #63 30 days ago

    Can you change your catchphrase to “Here’s the tip, don’t buy a flip?”

    #64 30 days ago
    Quoted from Ecw0930:

    #1 is the HONEST way of defining a flip. And what I intended this thread to point at.
    #2 is the dishonest way to say you aren't flipping, unless you are being honest.
    #3 is your example for EHOH and I don't consider that a flip at all.
    #4-6 I don't consider flips as they have been played.
    This was intended for the NIB flipping crowd.

    I agree totally... but I could see there being grey areas for some people. I can definitely see some people saying that if you only had the game for a short amount of time that they would consider it a flip.

    #65 30 days ago
    Quoted from DBLM:Can you change your catchphrase to “Here’s the tip, don’t buy a flip?”

    Can I? Cuz I will!

    Quoted from NC_Pin:

    I agree totally... but I could see there being grey areas for some people. I can definitely see some people saying that if you only had the game for a short amount of time that they would consider it a flip.

    A good example for me would be Star Wars. My family is a HUGE Star Wars family. Love everything about them. Do cosplay and stuff. If I were into pinball at the time of release I would have grabbed a premium! Like no questions asked. But.... i don't really like the game that much. Shots are too tight, not fun for kids because it's a hard game. It would have lasted a month then would have to get rid of it. Know what I mean?

    So yeah, a short period I would consider ok. It's been played 100-200 times. Not NIB. Still very minty. But it was not for a flip. Just didn't like the game.

    I'm specifically targeting the market ads with a pic of a BOX and a $14k price tag, or a stock pick of the game and "buy the spot" in the description.

    #66 30 days ago
    Quoted from DBLM:

    Can you change your catchphrase to “Here’s the tip, don’t buy a flip?”

    done! thanks for the idea!

    #67 30 days ago
    Quoted from Ecw0930:

    Can I? Cuz I will!

    A good example for me would be Star Wars. My family is a HUGE Star Wars family. Love everything about them. Do cosplay and stuff. If I were into pinball at the time of release I would have grabbed a premium! Like no questions asked. But.... i don't really like the game that much. Shots are too tight, not fun for kids because it's a hard game. It would have lasted a month then would have to get rid of it. Know what I mean?
    So yeah, a short period I would consider ok. It's been played 100-200 times. Not NIB. Still very minty. But it was not for a flip. Just didn't like the game.
    I'm specifically targeting the market ads with a pic of a BOX and a $14k price tag, or a stock pick of the game and "buy the spot" in the description.

    I hear ya… and 100% agree… but I am always curious on the boundaries when it comes to these moral conundrums. I am a bit of a dork.

    Here is an example… I have an order for a tbl… deposit paid… if next July (or whenever it eventually ships) would it be a flip for me to sell it for $15k (a $2500 profit) or whatever the market rate? Things change in a year and something that sounded cool in June 2021 could seem like an unnecessary indulgence the following summer. Since TBL isn’t limited you are basically charging a convenience fee for getting it sooner.

    To me that seems different than buying an le - never considering a delivery - and flipping it two weeks later. However, I am sure some people would call that a flip too. Idk…. Sure you can cancel the order, but if they had the deposit for nearly a year is it so bad to take delivery and just sell it?

    (For the record… I have no interest in selling my tbl spot)

    I am not trying to be argumentative - but I am genuinely curious on what people consider the unwritten rules of flipping. In my original example #1 is something we would all agree on… but after that I think it probably gets pretty subjective based on the individual.

    #68 30 days ago
    Quoted from JohnTTwo:

    Can you explain how or why you sold the second highest rated machine for you?
    Seems you have lots of truely highly rated games on your wish list.
    You did not just highly rate your Getaway to flip it for more money did you?

    You’re calling this guy out, but damn man, look in the mirror.

    Quoted from JohnTTwo:

    Looking to trade a Godzilla LE for a MMr Royal or tricked out version like a Royal. Willing to drive to Chicago of meet 1/2 way.
    Also have a TZ I am looking to sell or trade as well.
    Will donate to Pinside if a deal is made.
    Thanks John

    #69 30 days ago

    F U Flippers

    #70 30 days ago
    Quoted from Ecw0930:

    Until we collectively stop buying from flippers (and the distributors who overprice) this will just continue to go nuts and price the honest hobbyists out of the markets and leave pinball for elitists. And that sucks.

    Here’s the problem. The normal dealers that don’t mark up will be out of stock.

    I’ll want a BM66 for example, call several dealers who have no stock and also out of spots for pre order. So I’ll call a few more dealers they want a mark up price if they have a slot.

    It’s just that there is not enough supply. Then the used machines will ask for more than NIB price and they’ll get it because there is no supply.

    Have you been following the housing market? People will offer $40k+ over list price. I know people who want a house and they say sometimes there are people lined up to buy and pay over list price. If you don’t pay over you likely won’t get the house.

    #71 30 days ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    What jurisdiction charges 38% sales tax? I’d hate to live there!

    If there was a place, i'm sure Illinois would be the first state to do it.

    #72 30 days ago
    Quoted from GorillaBiscuits:

    Logistics time:
    - Powder coating $250
    - Art Blades $100
    - HD Glass upgrade $200
    - shitty speaker upgrade $50
    Premium MSRP $

    Logistics time:
    - Powder coating $250
    - Art Blades $100
    - HD Glass upgrade $200
    - shitty speaker upgrade $50
    Premium MSRP $8,999
    LE MSRP $10,500 (for the lucky ones that were able to snag one)
    You nerds are spending 1k for a backglass with a stupid mirror on it presuming you got this for MSRP. Add on the extra 2k-4K flipper tax if you happen to not be down with a local distro, which makes it 3k-5k for a mirrored backglass vs. the premium.
    I used to feel like pinball folks are generally smart to be able to afford this kind of stuff, but I’m reconsidering lately. Would anybody like to buy a chromed out bridge? Asking for a friend.

    Does the shaker come with a premium?Foiled side art on cabinet, how much is that worth? Someone’s time to acquire and install the items, let’s call it a convenience fee. I’d hate to mess up the cabinet or side art putting on new powder coated rails over a couple of hundred bucks too. When you add all this up there isn’t much difference.

    Now that is assuming you want those upgrades. Some people do and some don’t.

    #73 30 days ago
    Quoted from estrader:

    Does the shaker come with a premium?Foiled side art on cabinet, how much is that worth? Someone’s time to acquire and install the items, let’s call it a convenience fee. I’d hate to mess up the cabinet or side art putting on new powder coated rails over a couple of hundred bucks too. When you add all this up there isn’t much difference.
    Now that is assuming you want those upgrades. Some people do and some don’t.

    You can’t buy anything from the LE like the back glass, cabinet decal, even the inside side art is specific to the LE and not for sale. A shaker is around $100-150 and easy to install.

    #74 30 days ago
    Quoted from Jack8765:

    You’re calling this guy out, but damn man, look in the mirror.

    My apologies if I came across as calling him out. I am more curious of his thoughts, not saying mine are correct.

    I have always wanted a MM Royal and figured this was one way I could catch one.

    #75 30 days ago
    Quoted from NC_Pin:

    I hear ya… and 100% agree… but I am always curious on the boundaries when it comes to these moral conundrums. I am a bit of a dork.
    Here is an example… I have an order for a tbl… deposit paid… if next July (or whenever it eventually ships) would it be a flip for me to sell it for $15k (a $2500 profit) or whatever the market rate? Things change in a year and something that sounded cool in June 2021 could seem like an unnecessary indulgence the following summer. Since TBL isn’t limited you are basically charging a convenience fee for getting it sooner.
    To me that seems different than buying an le - never considering a delivery - and flipping it two weeks later. However, I am sure some people would call that a flip too. Idk…. Sure you can cancel the order, but if they had the deposit for nearly a year is it so bad to take delivery and just sell it?
    (For the record… I have no interest in selling my tbl spot)
    I am not trying to be argumentative - but I am genuinely curious on what people consider the unwritten rules of flipping. In my original example #1 is something we would all agree on… but after that I think it probably gets pretty subjective based on the individual.

    Does it really matter if anyone thinks you're "flipping" games? Stern is buying materials and putting them together and then selling you the end product at a mark-up...are they flipping games? The MET Pros that people paid 4-5K for 6 years ago are now selling for 6K+...are they flipping games?

    People only seem to care about "flippers" when it's something they wanted or think they had a chance to obtain and now can't (at least at what someone else paid). I've flipped plenty of games, and will continue to do so, as it helps me pay for the games I want to buy for my collection. I don't have the disposable income some on here do, so finding deals on games I don't really want to keep and selling them helps me get the games I do want. I did the work to find the games on FB (or wherever), did the work to make the deal, spent the time to move it, fix it, etc. I've never once had someone ask me "what did you pay for this game and when" when they were buying a game from me. If I listed out all the games I've sold and what I paid - should those people feel entitled to a refund of the difference?

    People spend way too much time and energy worrying about other people making money off them. I don't care what someone paid for a game when I buy it from them, all I care about is that I'm comfortable with the price I'm paying - if I'm not, I don't buy it. I've bought most if not all of my games from people I know personally, and I know how much they paid. In just about every instance they "flipped" it to me - but should I not buy a game I want because of that? You have to decide that for yourself I guess.

    #76 30 days ago
    Quoted from Ecw0930:

    The issue is.... it trickles down and effects ALL of the machines.
    People know the Premium is an LE without a signature. So they think it's worth an LE price. So they see $14k and say well hell, i've got a premium so $13k. Then the guys with pros are like well shit, my game is almost exactly like a premium minus one or 2 toys, so i'll list it for $9k.
    And the guy that wants these pins, at any trim level, needs to sell his and needs the extra so is 2013 machine is no a $7500 asking price because he NEEDS to buy a new one. And NEEDS to pay the inflated pricing caused by the LE guys, that caused the Premium guys, that caused the pro guys..... you get the picture.
    Until we collectively stop buying from flippers (and the distributors who overprice) this will just continue to go nuts and price the honest hobbyists out of the markets and leave pinball for elitists. And that sucks.

    No it doesn't. Nobody is flipping pro's for $10000. The market always dictate prices, not the sellers. Just because you think your game is worth $9000 doesn't mean it will sell at that price. Flippers just take advantage of the market and sell directly at market value. LE buyers missing out get upset because they want to be the one profiting. I can't blame them. Sometimes I think I should start buying LE's. Play them for a bit and then sell for a profit. Sounds fantastic. The only way to stop flippers is to eliminate all LE models but that would kill demand. The whole idea of the LE is to create fomo which makes it much more desirable. People are buying before they are even announced.

    #77 30 days ago
    Quoted from grantopia:

    Does it really matter if anyone thinks you're "flipping" games? Stern is buying materials and putting them together and then selling you the end product at a mark-up...are they flipping games? The MET Pros that people paid 4-5K for 6 years ago are now selling for 6K+...are they flipping games?
    People only seem to care about "flippers" when it's something they wanted or think they had a chance to obtain and now can't (at least at what someone else paid). I've flipped plenty of games, and will continue to do so, as it helps me pay for the games I want to buy for my collection. I don't have the disposable income some on here do, so finding deals on games I don't really want to keep and selling them helps me get the games I do want. I did the work to find the games on FB (or wherever), did the work to make the deal, spent the time to move it, fix it, etc. I've never once had someone ask me "what did you pay for this game and when" when they were buying a game from me. If I listed out all the games I've sold and what I paid - should those people feel entitled to a refund of the difference?
    People spend way too much time and energy worrying about other people making money off them. I don't care what someone paid for a game when I buy it from them, all I care about is that I'm comfortable with the price I'm paying - if I'm not, I don't buy it. I've bought most if not all of my games from people I know personally, and I know how much they paid. In just about every instance they "flipped" it to me - but should I not buy a game I want because of that? You have to decide that for yourself I guess.

    I spend basically no time worrying about it. I do think it sucks that some people can't get LE's because other people use their connections to jump ahead of them. Some people care while others don't, but neither are wrong.

    I am just curious at what point people consider something a flip. It can be subjective. You must have missed my earlier post when I posted an example of what people considers a flip

    #78 30 days ago

    $14,000 for a Godzilla ?? God God what is this Hobby coming too ....so sad

    #79 30 days ago
    Quoted from NC_Pin:

    I spend basically no time worrying about it. I do think it sucks that some people can't get LE's because other people use their connections to jump ahead of them. Some people care while others don't, but neither are wrong.
    I am just curious at what point people consider something a flip. It can be subjective. You must have missed my earlier post when I posted an example of what people considers a flip

    No I saw it, and I'm not attacking you. My point was that you are going to get a billion different answers (or non answers) and no consensus, and that it ultimately doesn't matter anyway. Everyone has their own definition and will or will not let that impact their decisions.

    I don't really have a definition because to me it doesn't matter. If you got a game for free 30 seconds before I bought it from you, what does it matter?

    To use your own example...the people getting the LEs spent the time (and presumably money in the past) to make those connections and get the game. If they buy it and resell it the same day are they a flipper? A week? A month? What's the difference? If they buy it and keep it, then that's one less LE in someone's hands. If they put it in storage for a decade and never open it are they a hoarder or a collector?

    I'm sure all the people complaining about pinball flippers never sell their stocks for more than they paid, right?

    #80 30 days ago
    Quoted from grantopia:

    I'm sure all the people complaining about pinball flippers never sell their stocks for more than they paid, right?

    I'm waiting for the first one to admit that they sold their home to a much lower offer than the highest offer so they won't be seen as greedy.

    #81 30 days ago
    Quoted from CrisCrow:

    why would any company want to do this? what benefit is there for them? if it was me id be happy that my product was next to unobtainable and people were charging and paying double what I initially charged. means I was successful

    If I made it, then I'd rather make the profit on it versus some joker who got on his distributor buddy's allocation list just to resell.

    #82 30 days ago
    Quoted from grantopia:

    No I saw it, and I'm not attacking you. My point was that you are going to get a billion different answers (or non answers) and no consensus, and that it ultimately doesn't matter anyway. Everyone has their own definition and will or will not let that impact their decisions.
    I don't really have a definition because to me it doesn't matter. If you got a game for free 30 seconds before I bought it from you, what does it matter?
    To use your own example...the people getting the LEs spent the time (and presumably money in the past) to make those connections and get the game. If they buy it and resell it the same day are they a flipper? A week? A month? What's the difference? If they buy it and keep it, then that's one less LE in someone's hands. If they put it in storage for a decade and never open it are they a hoarder or a collector?
    I'm sure all the people complaining about pinball flippers never sell their stocks for more than they paid, right?

    I agree. I am just curious as to what people consider an unethical flip.

    #83 30 days ago
    Quoted from NC_Pin:

    I agree. I am just curious as to what people consider an unethical flip.

    Buying NIB for sole purpose of selling NIB at a profit.

    #84 30 days ago
    Quoted from NC_Pin:

    I agree. I am just curious as to what people consider an unethical flip.

    I got the shotgun, you got the briefcase, it's all in the game though, right?

    #85 30 days ago
    Quoted from Ecw0930:

    Godzilla LE already going up on market for $14k+
    Too many people complaining and then people buying.
    Get it under control. Don't buy the flips. That simple. Not sure it could be anymore clear than that.
    I roll my eyes, and laugh, and then feel mad because we see these flipper prices, then complain about it in every forum and thread. But they still get bought. The FOMO in this space is ridiculous. If we (collectively) don't want the prices to continue like this, then we (collectively) need to not buy them at such "unreasonable" prices. (isn't capitalism grand? I say "unreasonable" because it's worth "what someone is willing to pay")
    Ok, that is all. GO PINBALL!

    This is the same issue that is happening with a lot of products, one being the Playstation 5. Aside from shortages of computer chips, bots and the like are buying up the systems with the sole intent of reselling them at a profit.

    The problem is that there are no systems to buy at normal prices for regular buyers..

    Very frustrating.

    #86 30 days ago
    Quoted from Rager170:

    This is the same issue that is happening with a lot of products,

    My kid paid a premium for his new X box, and a guy I know is cleaning up right now on Rolexes. Takes money to make money I guess.
    I tried to find windshield washer fluid at 3 local stores, all gone, sellers on amazon wanted $14 per gallon, needless to say, I did not buy any from amazon.

    #87 30 days ago

    What’s frustrating is to see a flip listed, not in hand and then stating more money is need to ship the pin. Then not even have the the courage to ad a discussion topic.

    #88 30 days ago
    Quoted from Atari_Daze:

    My kid paid a premium for his new X box, and a guy I know is cleaning up right now on Rolexes. Takes money to make money I guess.
    I tried to find windshield washer fluid at 3 local stores, all gone, sellers on amazon wanted $14 per gallon, needless to say, I did not buy any from amazon.

    Yup, its crazy. And that crap is why people couldnt find toilet paper, paper towels and lysol during the lockdown last year..

    #89 30 days ago

    I’m into buying prints from places like Mondo, Bottleneck Gallery, Hero Complex Gallery. Almost all of these prints are “Limited Edition”. About 99% of them will sell out within seconds to minutes. Being ready with my rapid F5 finger, I’ve lost out to quite a few that I really wanted even when locked and loaded to order. Then you go check out eBay only to see it posted for 2x-3x the amount. A total F’n flip.

    And guess what the galleries are doing? They’re monitoring and cancelling orders. Do they do this for the timed LEs? No. Just the instant sellout LEs.

    It’s not like these pop culture prints are not a niche market like pinball machines. Why can’t these manufacturers continue to sell non-LE/CE/top-tier versions of the machine through distros, but bring the sale of the top-tier version in-house to have more control, police, and protect their brand? Drop the “Limited” from “LE” and change it to “Legacy Edition”, because at the end of the day, isn’t the top of the line version of their products how the company’s legacy will really be measured? It shouldn’t be measured by the mid and lower tier models. I’m pretty sure they already have a sales department that sells to the distros, what’s a small-run batch number of games to add to the overall sales.

    *I’m not an ex-buyer that missed out on any LEs with any skin in this top-tier buying playing field.

    **At least it’s not a car-gument.

    #90 27 days ago

    LE's are not "top of the line" they are made exactly the same way as the premiums. Quality isn't any different. Gameplay isn't any different. Basically just 2 different art choices. one just cost you $2000 more to have, than the other.

    #91 27 days ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    LE's are not "top of the line" they are made exactly the same way as the premiums. Quality isn't any different. Gameplay isn't any different. Basically just 2 different art choices. one just cost you $2000 more to have, than the other.

    Not totally true. The speakers are better, the armor is way better, the backglass is better than a translite.

    #92 27 days ago

    TRON

    Quoted from jawjaw:

    Nobody is flipping pro's for $10000.

    #93 27 days ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Not totally true. The speakers are better, the armor is way better, the backglass is better than a translite.

    Glareless glass, shaker factory installed...For Mando LE, I estimate that LE buyers are paying around $250 for the LE portion over a Premium after pricing the upgrades. Sounds fine to me, it's a fantastic game that might get even better.

    #94 27 days ago

    By the time Godzilla reaches 1.0 code those 13.5 / $14.5 K games are gonna look like a steal.

    #95 27 days ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    Out of the 5 people I know that buy LE's. Not a single one of the cares that it is a limited production game. They just want the top of the line game with all the extra's and willing to pay more for it.

    I like to to go LE for two reasons. One is all the extras which I personally like such as the foil side art, mirror backglass, invisiglass, side armor, art blades, better speakers, shaker motor, etc. I get on location maybe much of that doesn't matter but in my house it does and I like how it all looks. But second reason, and this is just my personal experience, is that the net loss on a game after selling a year or two later tends to be the least with an LE, followed by a Pro, then last is the Premium which to me tends to have the highest loss. Your mileage may vary but that's just been my experience.

    #96 26 days ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Not totally true. The speakers are better, the armor is way better, the backglass is better than a translite.

    Big deal.

    #97 26 days ago

    Biggest deal ever. Get on board.

    #98 26 days ago

    Recently I traded a pin to a guy who is a regular competitive player in many leagues. I traded him a decent WPC wide body game and he gave me a recent Stern LE. He was not concerned at all about the few cosmetic issues on my game - told me he is “a player, not a collector”. So I asked him why he was buying NIB LEs if he is a player, not a collector. Simple answer was he wanted the first model off the line so he could get the new titles without a long wait and he didn’t mind paying the extra 2K to get the earliest available model.

    Just a different perspective and reason for buying LEs.

    -4
    #99 26 days ago
    Quoted from KozMckPinball:

    Glareless glass, shaker factory installed...For Mando LE, I estimate that LE buyers are paying around $250 for the LE portion over a Premium after pricing the upgrades. Sounds fine to me, it's a fantastic game that might get even better.

    shaker is NOT an upgrade. Shakers mess things up. Shake screws loose and put strain on everything. JP and ES always had way more screws laying the bottom of the cab than any other game. I would never put a shaker in any game that uses a computer CPU to run it. Those ram sticks would take a beating and I cannot see it running long term under those conditions.

    And for a Backglass being an upgrade. I'm not sure about that. Anytime I have to take a backglass out of a game that is ultra rare. It scares the shit out of me. One drop, or having too hot of paws and that shit bursts. then you are fawked. I have a lot of games that have less than 10 in the US, and it's nerve racking. the translite games, I just fling that shit out of there without a care in the world.

    #100 26 days ago
    Quoted from Ecw0930:

    Because a business will want to make as much money as possible. They can see how much they are reselling for. And the demand is there.
    One way to make this settle down would be for the manufacturers to raise their LE prices substantially (ALMOST to the level of the NIB flippers) and substantially increase the number of them. LE doesn't mean it has to be limited to 1000. Why not sell 5000 of them if you can and raise the price 25%?
    They only build them once they are ordered and someone else mentioned if they only sell 75% of them then they just don't make the last 25%. They don't lose money at all. In fact the COMPANY makes money instead of the NIB flippers. Which, theoretically, can afford the manufacturer to make better games, more games, pay their employees more money, etc etc. If their biggest margins are on LE's then they will make even more selling less. (less work, less everything, more profits)
    The BEST thing would be for the Sterns of the world to make a HIGH number of LE's and jack the price 25-30%. Leave the pros and premiums where they are. Make LE's on an order basis only. This will NOT trickle down to premiums and pros because of the enormous price difference. It will also free up time and workers on the manufacturing line to pump out as many pros and premiums as they can sell. (does this sound familiar? Looking at you Spooky). Then these "elitist", gotta have it, will pay anything for it, people can buy their LE's and pay the COMPANY for them. It will also not price out the normal Joe Shmoe hobbyist that just wants a Mando or Godzilla for his family because his family are huge Star Wars fans or his sons love Godzilla.
    Read it all over again and let it sink in.
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    Again you guys miss the value of DEMAND and how hard it can to generate it. Stern doesn’t want to satisfy the market demand for the pin — to do so would undercut the market urgency people have to buy.

    They have the perfect world right now where customers will pay a premium almost sight unseen ensuring every title sells and generates its own buzz. It is a dream situation- unsatisfied demand is fueling the urgency to buy the next title even faster.

    If LEs sit… that derails that fomo engine.

    Stern is playing the long game — you guys keep beating this horse around why aren’t they making it so YOU can get what you want. Clue in… they don’t want you to… because it’s creating even more buying demand!

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