Lucky Ace
Williams, 1974OK, working on a Williams Lucky Ace 1974
When I try to start a game, the score motor keeps running, the bonus relay keeps activating, even though the bonus count unit under the playfield reaches it's zero position - keeps trying to go on
I'm not a great EM tech, so bear with me.
Thanks,
RussMyers
All 4 score reels seem to be resetting to zero OK, although I am not sure what the position of the 3 switches on each reel should be in when they are at zero.
The score reel reset relay in the back box keeps energizing as well, although the reels seem to all be at zero.
RM
I just got done with fixing a Williams Argosy, and I also had my score motor continuing to run. This was a symptom of the bonus unit not transitioning from the zero position, to the first "1000" position.
Try just manually moving the bonus unit under the playfield up a few places, and see if all the other symptoms you are seeing stop as well. Do this while the motor is running.
If so, then its time to look at the schematics and what makes the bonus unit step up.
Quoted from orangestorm87:I just got done with fixing a Williams Argosy, and I also had my score motor continuing to run. This was a symptom of the bonus unit not transitioning from the zero position, to the first "1000" position.
Try just manually moving the bonus unit under the playfield up a few places, and see if all the other symptoms you are seeing stop as well. Do this while the motor is running.
If so, then its time to look at the schematics and what makes the bonus unit step up.
Yes, I tried doing this since when the bonus unit reaches the zero position, it looks like it is attempting to step back up to the first "1000" position, and not making it. I manually moved it up one, hoping that would satisfy it, but it just resets to zero again and keeps running.
OK, so when the bonus unit transitions from the zero position, to the first "1000" position, how does it know that, and what makes it stop running and kick the ball to the shooter lane? Maybe whatever switch tells it it's at the 1000 position and to do the next thing isn't working.
RussM
Usually continuous motor running is caused by score reels zero position switches, but if you have reason to suspect the bonus unit, its switch that controls the motor is between C5 and C6 on the schematic. (attached)
I circled the switch in one of the attachments.
Here is a bit of my Williams Argosy Schematic. In the red is where the bonus unit is told to step up.
If you you slightly above the circled red area, there is a switch called Bonus Unit Open At Zero, which I believe is what lets the machine know the bonus unit is either at the zero position or not. This should be the make/break switch on the bonus unit itself. Since its still trying to "count down" I would look at the Open At Zero switch.
The bonus unit will have a separte single switch, which is the End Of Stroke switch.
OK, all 4 score reels reset to Zero.
All 3 switches on all 4 score reels are Open when at the Zero position.
The score motor keeps running, and the bonus relay keeps activating, even though the bonus count unit under the playfield reaches it's zero position.
The Bonus Unit Open At Zero switch is indeed open at the zero point, and closed otherwise.
The Score Reel Reset relay in the backbox keeps firing, even though all reels are at zero.
It looks like the Bonus Unit is trying is trying to step back up to the 1000 position and not making it.
The 1000 pt bonus level lamp flashes when this happens.
If I manually step it up one position while it is running it still does not stop.
I do not know what to try next.
RussM
Have a look at the schematic fragment I uploaded. That shows every switch that runs the motor. Slide a slip of paper in each one and the motor should stop with the one that's keeping it running. You may have to trace it back another step or two from there, but that's the next step for us to help you.
OK, I am looking at the schematic, but I am not well used to reading them.
I also have tried narrowing it down after talking to another pinball tech.
I unplugged both jones plugs in the backbox, and when I powered it on and hit start - the problem disappeared, so I would conclude it's in the backbox.
To narrow it further, it's the jones plug on the right hand side of the backbox.
Are there any switches in the backbox (other than the ones on the score reels) that would call for the score reel reset relay to be active?
RussM
I have quadruple-checked the score reel switches - they are all open at the zero point
If I reach down to the bottom of the cabinet and hold open the energized reset relay on , the game stops trying to reset the score reels (obviously) and kicks a ball to the shooter lane
What energizes the reset relay in the bottom of the cabinet?
RussM
Quoted from bonzo71:In the zero position, all three switches on the score reel are open.
That's what I said
Quoted from RussMyers:That's what I said
Sorry... Just a thought...it looks like the game counts balls down. Does the ball count unit reset to ball 5 during the reset sequence (assuming you have it set to a 5 ball game.)
These are the switches that run the motor. All have an Orange&Green wire on one connection and a Yellow one on the other.
1 1 to 9 reset relay (probably in the backbox)
2 10 to A reset relay (probably in the backbox)
3 50 point relay
4 Bonus relay
5 This one I think is on the motor itself
6 Outhole relay
7 Reset relay
There are a couple more switches that run the motor, one on the 25 cent relay and one on the 10 cent relay with different wire colors but the above should get you started
Quoted from HowardR:These are the switches that run the motor. All have an Orange&Green wire on one connection and a Yellow one on the other.
1 1 to 9 reset relay (probably in the backbox)
2 10 to A reset relay (probably in the backbox)
3 50 point relay
4 Bonus relay
5 This one I think is on the motor itself
6 Outhole relay
7 Reset relay
There are a couple more switches that run the motor, one on the 25 cent relay and one on the 10 cent relay with different wire colors but the above should get you started
I will check these.
RM
Hi Russ +
there are many switches to make the Score-Motor run. When the Bonus-Relay is pulling then its switch closing / closed makes the Score-Motor run. Maybe (?) the "Self-Hold-Switch on Bonus-Relay" is maladjusted --- it must be open when the relay is not pulling.
Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons). Look at the "Coil on Bonus-Relay" - from one Solder-Lug on the coil runs a short wire to "Switch mounted on the Relay" - this is the "Self-Hold-Switch". Look at the place on the switch where the wires are soldered-on --- a drop of solder fallen there making faulty always contact ? Maybe a doghair crap of wire fallen there ? Maybe one of the short stubs coming out of the bakelite holding - a stub bent and so making faulty always contact ? Manually activate the relay --- does this switch truely open when You manually activate the relay / armature ? Sneak-in in-between the contact-points of the switch a stripe of paper so this switch is always open. We (temporary, because of the sneaked-in stripe of paper) loose the functionality of this relay - so please manually step the Bonus Unit down to Zero.
Then plug-in, toggle-on, start a game --- what happens ? Exactly the same behaviour as before ? Other behaviour ? Please write about.
The stripe of paper You have sneaked-in into "Self-Hold-Switch on Bonus-Relay" is: JPG, bottom, encircled green Switch".
IF (if) "no luck with the "encircled green switch": We may have to try other switches (sneaking-in a stripe of paper) --- but for now: What is the pin doing when You GUARANTEE: "Self-Hold-Switch on Bonus-Relay" is always open ? Greetings Rolf
OK, i was working through the start up sequence with some help, and I was told to check the Ball Count Unit in the backbox.
It was frozen solid from dried-out grease.
Following the Pinball Ninja's video, I took the Ball Count Unit apart, cleaned out all of the old grease, re-lubed with teflon gel, and now it steps up and resets no problem.
I am absolutely sure that I put everything back the way it was, and the unit is moving as it should (I took pics)
The constant attempts of the game to reset the score reels has stopped.
Now I have a new problem - when I hit the start button now, nothing happens.
I'm going to start a new thread.
RussMyers
OK, if anyone follows this thread now or in the future, the Ball Count Unit and Credit Unit were both frozen solid from old dried out grease on the pivot points.
Following Youtube vids (take pictures of the units before you pull off the springs and pivots - that saved my butt), used lighter fluid to loosen them off. cleaned all old grease off, and re-lubed with teflon gel.
Also cleaned and lubed the stepper fingers and contacts.
Now they both step up and down with ease, the game will credit up, start a game, kick the ball into the shooter lane.
It's ALIVE.
Have to track down some small issues; now the 10s reel will not reset reliably - that was working fine.
Thanks,
RussMyers
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Linwood, NJ
Aarau