help with special solenoid

(Topic ID: 234865)

help with special solenoid


By lfbmeineke

19 days ago



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  • 52 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 days ago by GRUMPY
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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There are 52 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 19 days ago

I have a stellar wars. The right ball kicker solenoid does not work. It is a special solenoid. It has voltage to it. When I ground the solenoid at the non power side it fires once and blows the fuse for all the solenoids. When I ground the transistor for that solenoid on the board it just blows the fuse. The solenoid is 22. I am a newbie. Thanks for any help

#2 19 days ago
Quoted from lfbmeineke:

I have a stellar wars. The right ball kicker solenoid does not work. It is a special solenoid. It has voltage to it. When I ground the solenoid at the non power side it fires once and blows the fuse for all the solenoids. When I ground the transistor for that solenoid on the board it just blows the fuse. The solenoid is 22. I am a newbie. Thanks for any help

Bad coil or diode would be my guess...have you tested both?

#4 19 days ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Bad coil or diode would be my guess...have you tested both?

And probably bad transistor/etc on the driver board, since it won't even fire unless you ground it

#5 19 days ago

When I tested it from the transistor it would not fire but blew the fuse. When I tested it from solenoid it fired then blew the fuse. How do i test transistor

#6 19 days ago

How do I test diode

#7 19 days ago

Start your training at this valuable site. There others but this is a good basic course.

http://www.pinrepair.com/begin/

http://www.pinrepair.com/begin/#howdmm

#8 19 days ago

I can help walk you through testing, but do you have a DVM (Digital Volt Meter) that has a Diode setting?

#9 18 days ago

I will have one on wednesday and thanks

#10 16 days ago

so i another driver board and i swapped them. ball kicker works, but left lower bumper was stuck on replaced tip120 on Q4 then the right top bumper was stuck on so I replaced the transistor at Q8 now it switched to the top left bumper. Whats going on. I cant check any other solenoids because it blows F2 fuse right away.Help

#11 16 days ago

What's the history of this alternate board? Was it a known working board?

#12 16 days ago

Dont know.

#13 16 days ago

Then you may have swapped in more problems than you had before.

#14 16 days ago

so you think i should swap back the old board

#15 16 days ago
Quoted from lfbmeineke:

so you think i should swap back the old board

Probably. Is this a new game to you that's never played, or was it working before when the kicker went out?

#16 16 days ago

it was working before kicker went out. ok so I put in the old board and now upper right bumper stays on

#17 15 days ago

I'm having a hard time following your observations. Let me summarize to see if this is correct.

Game was working fine.

Right Kicker locked on

Replaced Driver board with another board of unknown working history

Kicker now works but lower left bumper locks on.

Replaced transistor and then upper right bumper locks on.

Replaced transistor and then upper left bumper locks on.

Put old board back in

Now Upper right bumper locks on.

So disregarding the other board, simply removing the original board and putting it back in moved the problem from the right kicker to the right pop bumper?

#18 15 days ago

The random failures across two driver boards would point to something external to me. Either a ground short on the switches for the specials or an MPU problem. It doesn't seem likely so many transistors are failing. And the fact the original problem of the right kicker fixed itself just by removing the board and the problem moved to a different coil.

First test is remove special switch connector 2j13. Does the coil still lock on?

Second question, are these coils locking on at power up immediately before the mpu boots or after the mpu boots or when you start a game?

#19 15 days ago

If it is apparent it's MPU derived I would be looking at a new 40 pin connector and reflow the header pins for that connector. These are notorious for failing and causing all kinds of issues.

#20 15 days ago

So the coil locks on as soon as you power up. I also noticed that the right kicker powers once but doesnt stay locked. If I remove 2 J13 the coil doesnt lock on. what should i check next. I did check all the coils with the machine off and they all ohmed out the same about 4.5. What should I check next.

#21 15 days ago

Okay, so that's progress. Just a brief description of special solenoids. These are solenoids that are controlled by both the MPU (you can go into test mode and fire the coil) and directly by playfield switches. The switch signals come in on the 2J13 connector. Each switch on the playfield gets a black wire (logic ground) from connector 3J3-3, which then comes back through 8J3 and 2J13 according to the chart I've attached. You need to inspect those switches that have coils that lock on with 2J13 connected, but do not lock with 2J13 disconnected, because those wires are getting a signal from somewhere. Either something touching in the playfield, a closed switch, or a chafed wire.

Those switches also have a series RC circuit (Resistor and Capacitor) in parallel. That circuit holds the signal longer than the switch itself, to let the solenoid react. If that parallel circuit has shorted (bad capacitor), that will also cause this problem. To test, you can remove one leg of the capacitor to see if the problem goes away.

Stellar Wars (resized).jpg

#22 9 days ago

so the way things stand is top right and left bumpers are stuck on also bottom left bumper is on. replaced Q4 and Q8 tip120 and they are still stuck on. All three get stuck on immediately after power up. All switches look good. What do I need to look for or test.

#23 9 days ago

Also does one IC chip run Q4 Q6 Q8. and if so which one.

#24 9 days ago

If the coils release when you pull the 2j13 connector it's likely not coming from an IC.

As a test, pull 2j13 so the coils are off then go into coil test mode and see if you can test each coil.

It's possible the 7408 IC6 could be causing you issues. It's common to q2 through q8. That IC ands the signals from the playfield switches and the MPU to fire the coils. Also the sipp 4.7k resistor bank can fail. That could also cause issues. Without a logic probe it's difficult to determine where the failure point is.

But the fact multiple boards exhibited similar behaviour still points to a playfield wiring issue on the incoming special switches on 2j13.

#25 9 days ago

so i pulled the 2j13 connector and coil fire at power up. What should I look for in the playfield.

#26 9 days ago
Quoted from lfbmeineke:

so i pulled the 2j13 connector and coil fire at power up. What should I look for in the playfield.

Fires and stays on or activates once? Earlier you said when you pulled 2j13 the coil DID NOT fire. So I'm confused as to which it is. We have to be very clear in our descriptions of what's going on as it's hard enough to troubleshoot remotely.

So with 2j13 removed before you power up and then you power on the game, what happens? Does one coil fire once and release? Do multiple coils fire and release? Does one coil lock on? Do multiple coils lock on?

#27 9 days ago

All three coils lock on when as soon as I power up. Upper bumper right and left and lower bumper left.

#28 9 days ago

That is with the2J13 connector removed. Thanks for all your help.

#29 9 days ago
Quoted from lfbmeineke:

All three coils lock on when as soon as I power up.

You need to remove the fuse for coil power and stop testing this way, all this is doing is damaging parts. Do testing with a voltmeter.

Quoted from robertmee:

We have to be very clear in our descriptions of what's going on as it's hard enough to troubleshoot remotely.

This is so true, but it's so worth it when its finally fixed.

#30 9 days ago

Ok so I installed a board from pinball electronics that fuses each of the special solenoids separately. I have now pulled the fuses from Q4 Q6 and Q8. So that I can power on machine without doing any damage. I can use a voltmeter but not great at reading schematics. So any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

#31 9 days ago
Quoted from lfbmeineke:

I installed a board from pinball electronics

Those boards are a nice addition to the game.

Quoted from lfbmeineke:

I have now pulled the fuses from Q4 Q6 and Q8.

If the fuse is removed you can check the resistance from the cpu side of the fuse to ground with the power off. Should read @ .600 meg ohms if the transistor is good, low ohms would indicate a shorted transistor. What do you have on Q-4, Q-6 and Q-8.

#32 8 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Those boards are a nice addition to the game.

If the fuse is removed you can check the resistance from the cpu side of the fuse to ground with the power off. Should read @ .600 meg ohms if the transistor is good, low ohms would indicate a shorted transistor. What do you have on Q-4, Q-6 and Q-8.

What's odd is that the OP has tried two different boards with the same behaviour and has already replaced those transistors with the same behaviour. Certainly could be damaged again and might as well start at square one since the earlier info about the special switches appears false.

#33 8 days ago

Square one is where I would start. It maybe something further upstream. Once the OP checks the resistance with power off we will know.

#34 8 days ago

All special solenoids read .710 except Q4 which reads .000.

#35 8 days ago

Repeat test but with the power on.

#36 7 days ago

hen power is on. Q2, Q10, Q12 reading is .098. While Q4, Q6, Q8 the reading is -.240(negative).

#37 7 days ago
Quoted from lfbmeineke:

hen power is on. Q2, Q10, Q12 reading is .098. While Q4, Q6, Q8 the reading is -.240(negative).

Reverse your test leads when testing.

#38 7 days ago

Q4, Q6, Q8 is .310 and no reading on Q2, Q10, Q12.

#39 6 days ago
Quoted from lfbmeineke:

Q4 which reads .000.

This transistor is shorted and needs to be replaced.

These are being turned on by something upstream, do you have a logic probe? Check the output of IC 8 pin 4 and pin 10 with the game on.

#40 5 days ago

so just to be clear Q4, Q6, and Q8 are .310 when I do an ohm test. Power on fuses removed. These are the solenoids that are locked on. I will be getting a logic probe tomorrow. If you can walk me through the test procedure as I have never used a logic probe before. I am hoping that IC 8 is NG. Thanks again

#41 5 days ago

Logic probes are very easy to use. For what you are going to test you connect the red lead to 5 volts and the black lead to ground. Place the switch in the TTL position and you are ready to test with the probe tip. Turn on the machine and test IC-8.

#42 4 days ago

So I attached 2pictures. I want to make sure I am testing the correct IC. I also included the readings on each pin. Another is how do I tell if the chip is bad. Thanks again

405D8CF5-DBC1-4E37-BAF9-958DDDA64FBD (resized).jpeg4E1DB790-5989-4BB7-96F0-8FF84A90A486 (resized).jpeg
#43 4 days ago

If your readings are per this page's pin designations http://www.zseries.in/electronics%20lab/ics/#.XGM94VxKiUk

Then that chip is bad. A 7402 is a Quad NOR gate. If you follow the link and look at the pins, then for example if 5 and 6 are both low, 4 should be high, but in your listing, 4, 5 and 6 are all low which isn't correct. You can see that pin 13 should be high if 11 and 12 are low, so that gate checks out. But at least two are not. You didn't include pins 1 and 2, so can't tell on that one.

EDIT: Wait, you are checking the wrong IC8. You want to check the one on the Auxiliary Board, NOT the MPU. I left the above info, so when you do get to the right IC8, you'll understand what you should be seeing.

stellar wars (resized).jpg

#44 4 days ago

So I probed the right ic this time. It looks like chip is ng. That’s if I read it correctly. I have attached a diagram

image (resized).jpg
#45 4 days ago

Doesn't look right at first glance, but I'll let Grumpy comment....he's more adept at these early WMS SS games.

But I suspect a few things. One item, I don't think Pin 12 should be low unless the PF switch is closed or the MPU is telling the solenoid to be on OR the upstream IC6 is bad. Remove 2J13 and retest pin 12 and see if it changes.

#46 4 days ago

ReTested pin 12 with 2J13 unplugged. Still low

#47 4 days ago
Quoted from robertmee:

But I suspect a few things. One item, I don't think Pin 12 should be low unless the PF switch is closed or the MPU is telling the solenoid to be on OR the upstream IC6 is bad. Remove 2J13 and retest pin 12 and see if it changes.

Very true, I think this may have been the start of the original issue. Once IC-8 is replaced then more testing will need to done to ensure that this is not an issue in the future.

Quoted from lfbmeineke:

So I probed the right ic this time.

From your readings I would say that the flippers are always operational when in attract mode. This is not correct.
Also that Q-4, Q-6 and Q-8 are locked on in attract mode. Also not correct.
My conclusion is IC-8 needs to be replaced.

Quoted from lfbmeineke:

All special solenoids read .710 except Q4 which reads .000.

Since Q-4 reads as a dead short it needs to be replaced.
If it were me I would also replace Q-3, Q-5, Q-6, Q-7, Q-8 and the 3 diodes on the coils that were locked on.
Before I pulled the board for repairs I would also test pins 9 and 10 of IC-6, that way I would know if I had to replace it too. I would cut pin 12 on IC-8 first then test so that IC-8 wasn't pulling down IC-6.

#48 3 days ago

Should I replace ic6 and ic8 as they are not soldered into board and socketed. I see ic 8 is a 7402 and ic6 is a 7408. Is that correct. Just want to get the right chips.

#49 3 days ago
Quoted from lfbmeineke:

Should I replace ic6 and ic8 as they are not soldered into board and socketed. I see ic 8 is a 7402 and ic6 is a 7408. Is that correct. Just want to get the right chips.

Yes that's the correct IC numbers...and if they're already socketed then yes replace.

Once replaced and you replace the coil diodes, leave the fuses out and recheck ic8. If ic8 then checks good, we can retest the transistors. Or replace them as Grumpy suggested, but since they require solder work, might be prudent to wait until we can just test them again. With the exception of Q4 which appears shorted. Go ahead and replace.

#50 3 days ago
Quoted from lfbmeineke:

Should I replace ic6 and ic8 as they are not soldered into board and socketed.

I would.

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