Help with my Cyclone


By Tomass

1 month ago


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  • Latest reply 2 weeks ago by GRUMPY
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There are 207 posts in topic. You are on page 1 of 5.
#1 32 days ago

Hello, I am new to the hobby and to Pinside. I have hit a roadblock on my first pinball and need some direction please. I just got the machine and when I switched it on the replay knocker sticks on. I disconnected the molex and moved on. At this point the solenoid to kick the ball into the shooter lane does not fire. The flippers and everything else seem to work but I also noticed no fuse in the F2a slot on the aux driver board. This is a newer model that is a replacement for the origial but the original had a transistor or something (w8) in place of a fuse. If i put a fuse into the slot, the relay on the aux board sparks and sputters. Also the component at BR1 slot is getting extremely hot while I was testing. Do I have a short somewhere? Any direction on the next step would be appreciated. I tried to trace all the wires and checking all connections. Also the GI relay clicks rather loudly as it switches but this may be normal?

#2 32 days ago

Do you have a manual yet? http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/617/Williams_1988_Cyclone_Manual_Schematics.pdf

Quoted from Tomass:

Do I have a short somewhere?

Yes.
Do you have a multimeter?
Remove J11 and J12 from the aux power supply and remove and test every fuse and ensure there are the correct amperage then replace. Turn on power and test all voltages and report back your findings.

#3 32 days ago

Thank you for your help. Yes, I have a mutimeter and a manual. The fuses seem fine as far as amperage.
On j11
Pin1 38v
Pin2 38v
Pin4 not steady. Jumping
Pin5 jumping
6 and 7 gnd
Pins 8 thru 12 all have 39v

On j12
Pin1 gnd
Pins 2 thru 10 all have 74v (except pin 8 is a key)
Pin 11 and 12 are jumping

#4 32 days ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Also the component at BR1 slot is getting extremely hot while I was testing

Did you replace F-2a fuse?
Is BR1 getting hot anymore?
You can also plug in J12 again.
With your meter set to ohms, black lead to the ground braid use the red lead to test the pins of the connector J11. Check pins 1,2,4 and 5.
Also test Q-3 and D-7 on the aux power supply. This is for the knocker that locks on at power up.

#5 32 days ago

Pin 1 shows ol
Pin 2 is flashing ol
Pin 4 and 5 all read ol

Br1 is not getting hot

Having a hard time with q3 but looks like .46
I am not sure how to test the d7 diode but i will google it

#6 32 days ago

Oh, and yes all fuses are in.
Looks like d7 get .48 one way and .9 the opposite. It is still on the board so not sure about the testing of it.

#7 32 days ago

Shoot. Just realized you meant the idc connector
So pin1 .53
Pin2 .53
Pin 5 .48

No wire on pin 4

#9 32 days ago

Here is what I found using that link to test Q3
B to E 223.8
B to C 3.9
E to B 223.8
C to B .84
C to E .85

I am not sure what this means exactly

#10 32 days ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Here is what I found using that link to test Q3
B to E 223.8
B to C 3.9
E to B 223.8
C to B .84
C to E .85
I am not sure what this means exactly

Was this in diode test or ohms?
Either way it looks shorted.

#11 32 days ago

Ohms. I have a spare board. I will pull one and replace it. Is this dealing with the stuck knocker or the line short or both? Just curious, I'm trying to follow your thought and learn something. And again thank you so much for taking time to help.

#12 32 days ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Shoot. Just realized you meant the idc connector
So pin1 .53
Pin2 .53
Pin 5 .48
No wire on pin 4

Let's start with pin 5, this comes from the AC relay. Pin 5 is 25 volts and if you look at diagram of the aux power supply, of the 8 coils that are controlled by the AC only 4 are 25 volts. Coils 1,2,5 and 8 are 25 volts and of these only 1and 5 are being used. These 2 coils need to be tested for ohm's at the coil itself. Any reading under 4 ohms is bad.

#13 32 days ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Ohms. I have a spare board. I will pull one and replace it. Is this dealing with the stuck knocker or the line short or both? Just curious, I'm trying to follow your thought and learn something. And again thank you so much for taking time to help.

Page 2 shows you the solenoid numbers and the knocker is 7a. If you look at the aux power supply diagram you will see that coil 7 trigger wire ( which comes from the CPU board) comes into the board and goes to Q-3 which steps up the voltage to 50 volts. Also when ever you replace a transistor that locks on a coil you always replace the coil diode at the same time and test the coil for the correct resistance.

#14 32 days ago

There is no diode on the coil, is this the D7? And I replace the D7?

#15 32 days ago
Quoted from Tomass:

There is no diode on the coil, is this the D7? And I replace the D7?

Williams put diodes the coils untill system 11b. With the invention of the aux power supply all coil diodes are now located on the aux power supply. So yes you will need to replace D-7.

#16 32 days ago

Ok so I swapped out the D7 and Q3 components.
Solenoid 1 is the outhole kicker: ae 23-800 and is reading 3.9 ohms
Solenoid 8 is the spook house drop target and is also an: ae 23-800 reading 3.9 also.

#17 32 days ago

After you find which coil( 1or5 ) is shorted, then you will need to check the drive transistor on the CPU board. Solenoid 1 is Q33 and solenoid 5 is Q31 and lastly since solenoid 7 was locked on and you replaced Q3 you will need to check the predriver which is Q30.

#18 32 days ago

Sorry I meant coil 5 not 8. So both read the same 3.9 ohms. I'm not sure either is shorted at this point.

#19 32 days ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Ok so I swapped out the D7 and Q3 components.
Solenoid 1 is the outhole kicker: ae 23-800 and is reading 3.9 ohms
Solenoid 8 is the spook house drop target and is also an: ae 23-800 reading 3.9 also.

Since both coils read ok then you have a shorted transistor on the CPU board or a pinched power wire.

#20 32 days ago

So Q31 is giving me vastly different readings than the other similar transistors around it so I will start with replacing that. I need to order that part though.

#21 32 days ago

A quick test for shorted NPN TIP transistors can be done by using a DMM set to ohms and place the black lead on a board screw and place the red lead on the metal tab of the transistor. If you have a tip122 .600 meg ohm or higher is good. If you have a tip102 a reading of .900 meg or higher is good.

#22 32 days ago

Cut Q 31 off the board and retest pin 5 of j11. If the short is gone then reconnect j 11 and power up the machine. Then do a solenoid test noting what doesn't work.

#23 32 days ago

Not sure I'm testing correctly but on ohms, black to board screw, i get 269 on the tab of q31 and none of the other transistors give a reading.

#24 32 days ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Not sure I'm testing correctly but on ohms, black to board screw, i get 269 on the tab of q31 and none of the other transistors give a reading.

269 is shorted. The others are showing OL which is fine.

#25 32 days ago

Ok q31 is cut off but when i test ground screw to pin 5 on the connector i get a reading of 9.6 M ohms?

#26 32 days ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Ok q31 is cut off but when i test ground screw to pin 5 on the connector i get a reading of 9.6 M ohms?

Sounds good.

#27 31 days ago

With Q31 cut off neither the outhole or drop target reset are working. The mystery wheel does not want to spin but kinda jitters. Maybe seperate issue?
On startup i get a message about adjusting drop target switch.

#28 31 days ago

All are separate issues, now with the game in attract mode is BR 1 still getting very hot?

#29 31 days ago

Yes, getting hot in attract mode.

#30 31 days ago

Also did you reconnect the knocker? Does it work in test?

#31 31 days ago

Knocker is connected and not stuck on. Not sure how to test it.

#32 31 days ago

When you do a solenoid test it will fire at solenoid#7.

#33 31 days ago

Do you have any flash lamps on at all times?

#34 31 days ago

Since you are new to pinball, I think you should read the manual today. Then we can work thru each of the problems you have left.

#35 31 days ago

No it does not fire

#36 31 days ago

I have been through the manual a few times. I have been digging for 3 weeks before reaching out for help. There are a couple flashers that blink a couple times on startup and then stay lit.

#37 31 days ago

These flashers that stay lit are causing Br1 to run warm. Since the knocker and outhole are not working there will need to be more trouble shooting done. Look at the manual to find out what solenoid number the lit flashers are.

#38 31 days ago

I will go through the manual again. I am trying to order the correct transistor for q31. The old one has markings of 9 4 10-0 8745 not sure what these mean and google is not helping. Also can I donate to you for your time? I really appreciate your time and to this point I have had almost no good interactions with others in this hobby.

#39 31 days ago

Wait on ordering parts until all problems are tested. Do you have a logic probe?

#40 31 days ago

No logic probe but I can order one.

#41 31 days ago

As far as the driver transistors on the CPU I use a TIP 102 as they are 60% stronger. Too bad to hear about others in our hobby not being very helpful. No need to donate for me as I just do this for fun. If you want to then donate to pinsides for bringing us together.

#42 31 days ago

You should purchase a logic probe as it will make troubleshooting easier. Elenco probes are under 20.00 Now I have to go to a birthday party, but we can do more later tonight.

#43 31 days ago

Ok, I ordered a logic probe. I think there are more problems than I realized. When doing the solenoid test there are several flashers that do not work and 4 that stay on. When it goes to the a/c select, the 4 that are on will flash and nothing else will flash. When the other flasher tests are performed on some, the correct ones flash but those 4 are on. Other findings:
Sol 8c has 2 of the constant on, cont Q22
No outhole kicker, and flashers on same q33 not working
No knocker 7a
No flashers on 7c both are q30
Other flashers do not flash as well such as:
Sol 9 and the ones on q31 obviously

Now I am completely lost. Lol

#44 31 days ago

Also I am getting a random u25 ram failure but it goes away with a restart. I read that I need a 6116 ram chip but I will wait to see if my board is salvageable before ordering that.

#45 31 days ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Ok, I ordered a logic probe.

Good.

Quoted from Tomass:

I think there are more problems than I realized

There always is more problems then you think.

Quoted from Tomass:
When doing the solenoid test there are several flashers that do not work and 4 that stay on.

Make a list of what is not working, use page 40 to get the correct solenoid numbers.

Quoted from Tomass:
When it goes to the a/c select, the 4 that are on will flash and nothing else will flash.

In fact nothing should flash but when the relay switches from C to A side the 4 flashers that are stuck on (which should be off) will turn off because the power is switched to the A side coils. So for now this is normal.

Quoted from Tomass:

Now I am completely lost. Lol

This is no big deal, once you learn to fix one circuit the rest is easy.

Quoted from Tomass:
Also I am getting a random u25 ram failure but it goes away with a restart. I read that I need a 6116 ram chip but I will wait to see if my board is salvageable before ordering that.

What you should do is post a pic of your power supply board and test the 5 volt and 12 volt test points with a meter for DC and AC voltage.

#46 31 days ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Sol 8c has 2 of the constant on, cont Q22
No outhole kicker, and flashers on same q33 not working
No knocker 7a
No flashers on 7c both are q30
Other flashers do not flash as well such as:
Sol 9 and the ones on q31 obviously
Now I am completely lost. Lol

I just first wanted to say not to get discouraged. I think you are not far from getting it working.

I would mention that Q22, Q30 and Q31 have a common denominator - U19. Maybe you don't have a lot of bad drivers, but one bad driver and one bad 7408 chip? worth looking into

QUAD_2-Input_AND_GATE_IC (resized).png

-dave

#47 31 days ago

Here is the power board. It was one of the first things I checked. I pulled the connectors off and the 5 v pins all read 5.16 and the 12v pins read 14v.
Maybe of note: schematic on 3j6 has the first pins as 1 not listed, 2 12v unreg, 3 not listed and 4 nc
Mine reads 1 nc, 2 14v, 3 14v, 4 5.15v

15056959780592142122708 (resized).jpg

#48 31 days ago

Thanks for the encouragement. Trying to even get a pinball machine in Alaska has been a rough ride. I am glad to have a machine and so far I am ejoying the work i put into it. Also I somehow managed to get my favorite machine from when I was younger. I would be lost without the help though. Is there a way to test that chip?

#49 31 days ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Is there a way to test that chip?

Yes but you will need your logic probe first.

#50 31 days ago

Full list from solenoid test:
1A not working
1C not flashing 4 constant on
2A not used
2C both flash 4 constant on
3A working
3C both flash 4 constant on
4A working
4C both flash 4 constant on
5A nothing
5C nothing, 4 constant on
6A not used
6C this is half of the constant on
7A not working
7C not working
8A not used
8C this is other half of constant on
9 not working
10 flashing
11 flashing
12 4 constants flash
15 nothing
The rest all work including flippers

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