(Topic ID: 282276)

Help with Embryon and Alltek board

By SNES

3 years ago


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  • 41 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by SNES
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 3 years ago

Hey everyone,

Hoping for some help on this. I replaced the MPU on my Embryon with an Alltek board and now the player that is up doesn’t flash. Wondering if anyone knows if this is a dip switch adjustment or something else I need to do? It makes it tough to play when you’re unsure if it is your ball or not.

Thank you for any insight!

Brandon

#2 3 years ago

It's not a game setting, it's the default behavior of Embryon software.

Are you sure you've got Embryon correctly selected on the Alltek game selection switches?
Did you try running the Alltek memory clear function?
The Alltek CLK speed jumpers are selected for Bally and not Stern?

#3 3 years ago

Thank you for the reply! I confirmed that I have Embryon selected. I did a memory clear and confirmed the CLK jumpers are set to Bally. Still no change unfortunately. Any other thoughts?

Note that I have 7volution displays in it. Is that a possible issue? Thank you again for the response!

#4 3 years ago
Quoted from SNES:

Note that I have 7volution displays in it. Is that a possible issue?

Quite possible.
What happens in game over mode on the displays? It should:
1) Show the last game scores
2) Blank
3) Show the High Score to Date
4) Blank
Repeat

Do the displays momentarily blank at 2) and 4) ?

Have you got a factory 6 digit display to try with the 7volution controller board disconnected?

#5 3 years ago

Well, I swapped the displays (should have done that first, duh) and it flashes the player that is up. So something with the 7volution displays I guess. That’s a bummer. I’ll reach out to them and see if there is a fix. They have been amazingly helpful and supportive. Highly recommend their company.

Thank you Quench for the help, I really appreciate it!

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from SNES:

So something with the 7volution displays I guess.

Looks like they might need to update the firmware on their controller interface board.

It's really quite strange why Embryon was released with 6 digit displays, when nine months earlier Bally already made the change to 7 digit games.

5 months later
#7 2 years ago
Quoted from SNES:

Well, I swapped the displays (should have done that first, duh) and it flashes the player that is up. So something with the 7volution displays I guess. That’s a bummer. I’ll reach out to them and see if there is a fix. They have been amazingly helpful and supportive. Highly recommend their company.
Thank you Quench for the help, I really appreciate it!

Did you ever find a solution for blinking the 7volution displays?

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

It's really quite strange why Embryon was released with 6 digit displays, when nine months earlier Bally already made the change to 7 digit games.

Purchasing scored a bulk purchase of 6 digit displays. When the 7s came out suppliers Cherry and Burroughs had large inventories of 6s and made Bally an offer we couldn't refuse. It was a long time ago but I think the decision was to use them up on widebody games and in other spots.

6 months later
#9 2 years ago

Was there a solution found for the non-blinking displays with 7volution?

I have the same issue with my Embryon.

#10 2 years ago
Quoted from Hi-Fi:

Was there a solution found for the non-blinking displays with 7volution?

Contact X-Pin. The 7volution product is their proprietary design and only they'll be able to resolve it.

#11 2 years ago

I talked to X-Pin back when this issue arose. The answer was that the LEDs weren’t flashing due to the minor amount of electrical current needing to light them. They were going to look into a fix but needed to get a game that flashed the player that was up to test everything. Never heard anything else. They were super responsive at the time though.

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from SNES:

The answer was that the LEDs weren’t flashing due to the minor amount of electrical current needing to light them.

Hmm, this looks like an error in their logic detection, not an electrical issue.

Quoted from SNES:

They were going to look into a fix but needed to get a game that flashed the player that was up to test everything.

All the below 6 digit games flash the player up score at the start of a ball. Shouldn't be hard for them to find one of these..

Kiss, Dolly Parton, Harlem Globe Trotters, Silverball Mania, Future Spa, Space Invaders, Rolling Stones, Paragon, Mystic, Hot Doggin, Viking, Embryon, Six Million Dollar Man.

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Hmm, this looks like an error in their logic detection, not an electrical issue.

All the below 6 digit games flash the player up score at the start of a ball. Shouldn't be hard for them to find one of these..
Kiss, Dolly Parton, Harlem Globe Trotters, Silverball Mania, Future Spa, Space Invaders, Rolling Stones, Paragon, Mystic, Hot Doggin, Viking, Embryon, Six Million Dollar Man.

Yeah, I admittedly don’t know much when it comes to this stuff. Also, Embryon has been giving me fits with no solenoids firing so I haven’t been too worried about the displays. The game is my nemesis haha

#14 2 years ago

no solenoids at all?

have you checked fuse F4 on the board in the bottom of the cabinet and your 43VDC supply at TP5 ?

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from SNES:

Embryon has been giving me fits with no solenoids firing

Also check the 5 volt loop wire on the J3 connector at solenoid driver board pins 13 and 25 that powers the solenoid drive circuits.

#16 2 years ago

I have tried to contact X-pin about this issue and their phone number just refers you to their website. When I try to send them an email I get a “No Robots Allowed Here” response so I guess that doesn’t work either.

I guess I’m going back to 6-digit displays.

#17 2 years ago

If the xpin displays work as regular seven digit displays you can put the Oliver roms in they might already be in the alltek boards they have a couple of them on there.

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from Hi-Fi:

I guess I’m going back to 6-digit displays.

That would be a shame.

X-Pin are on Pinside if you want to try PMing them:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/xpin-black-friday-sale-2021-1

They've also partnered with Big-Daddy, so they could be another contact route.

Quoted from slochar:

Oliver roms in they might already be in the alltek boards they have a couple of them on there.

Olivers Embryon update isn't in the Alltek ROM.

#19 2 years ago

Finally saw this post. Yes, this is in the 7volution displays. We are battling technologies with what we are doing here.

The classic Bally games when updating the score displays have an interrupt every 3.1ms and then it updates the same digit on all of the displays and must do so before the next interrupt occurs. With actually adding the millions digit, we now have to update more digits in that same amount of time and miss the real blank that occurs, which is in part due to the 7volution code and LED vs Plasma devices.

It is important also to keep in mind that since we have no interaction with the MPU (we are monitoring the entire display harness) the determination as to when we roll and keep the millions digit has to be done real time as it is moving across the buss. Definitely a challenge across the board.

I readily admit that there are improvements that can be made, such as making sure the blinking of the player occurs, as well as addressing Stern games, but I haven't had the opportunity or time to improve this. If anyone is interested in helping with this, send me a PM. Would need someone who knows their way around C language and MicroChip parts. I can make it worth your while if interested.

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from XPinPinball:

I readily admit that there are improvements that can be made, such as making sure the blinking of the player occurs, as well as addressing Stern games, but I haven't had the opportunity or time to improve this.

Stern games have or can have relatively easily seven digit scoring native.

The seven lution displays should just grab the data and put it onto the displays at its own pace.... No need to refresh the display live sixty times a second.

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from XPinPinball:

It is important also to keep in mind that since we have no interaction with the MPU (we are monitoring the entire display harness) the determination as to when we roll and keep the millions digit has to be done real time as it is moving across the buss. Definitely a challenge across the board.

I presume you're also monitoring the lamp states so you know when to display the high score to date, etc.

There is no situation where the singles digit will be blank and other digits will have live numbers. Same goes for the 10's digit.
So if either of those two digits are blank at a display, that whole display will be blank. i.e. you don't need to worry that the score has rolled over and you have to stuff zero digits up to the millions digit when those first two digits are blank.

Since the MPU board writes digits to the displays in reverse order (most significant to least significant) there are likely times your blanking will be out a frame or so but we are talking some milliseconds which nobody should notice.

Quoted from XPinPinball:

I readily admit that there are improvements that can be made, such as making sure the blinking of the player occurs, as well as addressing Stern games, but I haven't had the opportunity or time to improve this.

The Stern MPU-100 games with 6 digits write to the displays the same way Bally does.
The Stern MPU-200 games have a faster display interrupt generator that runs at 400Hz.
Alltek MPU boards run the display interrupt generator at 420Hz from memory, regardless of 6 or 7 digit games - they defaulted to Ballys 7-digit refresh speed.

1 week later
#22 2 years ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

no solenoids at all?
have you checked fuse F4 on the board in the bottom of the cabinet and your 43VDC supply at TP5 ?

Sorry for the delay. The game is at my parents’ house so I don’t work on it super often.

I checked and I don’t have the 43VDC. I have a new solenoid driver board though. Any idea what that would mean to me?

ETA: I have a new solenoid driver board, MPU, and power module board in the game. I fired it up tonight and the solenoids fired and worked for about 10 seconds and then all went dead again.

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from SNES:

Sorry for the delay. The game is at my parents’ house so I don’t work on it super often.
I checked and I don’t have the 43VDC. I have a new solenoid driver board though. Any idea what that would mean to me?
ETA: I have a new solenoid driver board, MPU, and power module board in the game. I fired it up tonight and the solenoids fired and worked for about 10 seconds and then all went dead again.

Having a new solenoid driver board has nothing to do with the 43VDC, that supply initially comes from the transformer lugs 2 and 6 in the form of AC then is converted to DC at the rectifier board.

By "all went dead again", do you mean the fuse F4 went open?

#24 2 years ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

Having a new solenoid driver board has nothing to do with the 43VDC, that supply initially comes from the transformer lugs 2 and 6 in the form of AC then is converted to DC at the rectifier board.
By "all went dead again", do you mean the fuse F4 went open?

I mean I started a game and the solenoids were working fine. I flipped the ball a few times and then the solenoids all stopped firing again and the ball drained without being kicked back out.

I checked all fuses and they are all good. Thinking I should take another look at F4 though as that would be for 43V I believe? I am terrible with electrical and even worse with early solid states so sorry if I ask dumb questions. I really appreciate your help!

#25 2 years ago

all good, no need to say sorry and forget about the questions, ask away.

just going back to your first post.....did you ever have the game working with an original mpu board?

after the ball drains, having played the one ball, does it come good after a few seconds?
when you lose the solenoids working, do the displays go out?

#26 2 years ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

all good, no need to say sorry and forget about the questions, ask away.
just going back to your first post.....did you ever have the game working with an original mpu board?
after the ball drains, having played the one ball, does it come good after a few seconds?
when you lose the solenoids working, do the displays go out?

The game was working with the original mpu years ago and worked for 20 years or so. Honestly, I don’t remember what the issue was that made us swap the board out since we replaced it a couple of years ago.

No, when the solenoids go out they stay out for the most part. I’ve only had them come alive a couple of times since we started having the solenoid issue about a year ago.

The displays stay on and register points when manually triggering switches when the solenoids are out.

Thank you for the help!

#27 2 years ago

Duplicate

#28 2 years ago

Wanted to add to this.

I found a few missing screws in the power module board and the right flipper. I replaced the screws and the solenoids worked for about 1 full minute. I thought maybe there was something off with the ground and one of the screws I replaced fixed it. The solenoids went out again though. I power cycled the game and the solenoids worked for about 5 seconds before going out. I power cycled one more time and had no solenoids for about 10 seconds, and then they randomly started working for about 10 more seconds before going out.

It feels like maybe I am getting a bit closer, but I’m not sure.

#29 2 years ago

check the fuse holder under the playfield, sort of between the flippers in the middle.

the fuse should be a 1 amp slow blow.

sounds like the clips that hold the fuse in place may not be tight enough hence the intermittent results.

if the fuse holder is original, there is a chance that upon squeezing the clips together a little that one or both sides may snap off, just be gentle.

#30 2 years ago

To add to Rikoshay 's post, if the solenoids go out but the flippers keep working.... it's the fuse holder. The underplayfield fuse splits off the flipper power *before* the fuse (the flippers are protected directly by the rectifiers' board fuse) leaving only the non-flipper solenoids for that fuse.

Bally fuse holders are pretty bad and something I replace on all machines I go through, even if they 'seem good'.

#31 2 years ago

The fuse holder seems to be good. The fuse is tight. It was a 2.5 amp though, so I swapped it to a 1 amp. Still same issue.

Sounds like that fuse/holder may not be the issue though since the flippers go out as well. All solenoids go out when they go.

Thank you both!

#32 2 years ago

do you notice the coin lock out coil on the door go out also?

#33 2 years ago

sounds like we need to start at the start.

you mention not being too confident with early solid state, that's fine we'll fix that, well try anyway

do you have a digital multi meter that you understand how to use?

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from SNES:

All solenoids go out when they go.

That points to a connector issue or a bad solder joint on the rectifier board.

#35 2 years ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

do you notice the coin lock out coil on the door go out also?

I should be able to shoot over there tomorrow and check it out again. I’ll take a peek at the coin lock out coil.

#36 2 years ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

sounds like we need to start at the start.
you mention not being too confident with early solid state, that's fine we'll fix that, well try anyway
do you have a digital multi meter that you understand how to use?

I appreciate the early SS crash course haha

I have a DMM and can use it decently I would say. I know how to check voltages and continuity.

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from slochar:

That points to a connector issue or a bad solder joint on the rectifier board.

I visually inspected the connectors in the backbox and things seem to look good. Nothing burnt or deteriorating or anything. Any suggestion on where I should check continuity? Like I said before, I am not very good when it comes to electrical.

Also, maybe I am missing something. Where is the rectifier board located at? I don’t see anything labeled as such.

Thank you!

#38 2 years ago

when the games loses the solenoids i'd like you to probe pins 2 & 10 on the J2 connector on the rectifier board.

multi meter set to volts DC and put the red probe to pin 2 (43VDC solenoid bus) and the black lead to pin 10 or any 'ground' on the machine.
this is pretty much the same as probing test point 5, but the meter probe terminal may cause a better connection to happen, if so determining where the fault is.

J2 plug feeds power to the cabinet, hence me asking about the coin lock out, i'm curious if only the playfield loses the 43VDC or it also drops out on the door also?

i don't suspect the rectifier board to be at fault or the fuse F4, a 5A fast blow would go open.
i'm thinking a bad connection somewhere.

if you have 43VDC at pin 2 and 10 (ground) then whilst it's still 'down' check voltage at the 1A fuse under the playfield (and/or any solenoid lug on the banded diode end) and ground.

also remove J2 from the rectifier board and look inside the plug, at pin 2 and see if it's 'okay', like not broken, and not squashed which would cause minimal pressure to the rectifier board header pin.
actually, when the game is 'down' press say any flipper button whilst lifting on the J2 plug loom (essentially pin 2 wire) and see if the flipper works?

#39 2 years ago

Are the flippers dying aswell?

If yes, also check the 5V power loopback (brown-green) wire on the solenoid driver board J3 connector - if wiggling it makes the solenoids work, time to reterminate with new crimps. Measuring test point TP3 on the solenoid driver board should indicate 5 volts.

SDB_LogicPowerA.pngSDB_LogicPowerA.png

#40 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Are the flippers dying aswell?
If yes, also check the 5V power loopback (brown-green) wire on the solenoid driver board J3 connector - if wiggling it makes the solenoids work, time to reterminate with new crimps. Measuring test point TP3 on the solenoid driver board should indicate 5 volts.
[quoted image]

Yes, the flippers are dying as well. Thanks!

1 week later
#41 2 years ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

when the games loses the solenoids i'd like you to probe pins 2 & 10 on the J2 connector on the rectifier board.
multi meter set to volts DC and put the red probe to pin 2 (43VDC solenoid bus) and the black lead to pin 10 or any 'ground' on the machine.
this is pretty much the same as probing test point 5, but the meter probe terminal may cause a better connection to happen, if so determining where the fault is.
J2 plug feeds power to the cabinet, hence me asking about the coin lock out, i'm curious if only the playfield loses the 43VDC or it also drops out on the door also?
i don't suspect the rectifier board to be at fault or the fuse F4, a 5A fast blow would go open.
i'm thinking a bad connection somewhere.
if you have 43VDC at pin 2 and 10 (ground) then whilst it's still 'down' check voltage at the 1A fuse under the playfield (and/or any solenoid lug on the banded diode end) and ground.
also remove J2 from the rectifier board and look inside the plug, at pin 2 and see if it's 'okay', like not broken, and not squashed which would cause minimal pressure to the rectifier board header pin.
actually, when the game is 'down' press say any flipper button whilst lifting on the J2 plug loom (essentially pin 2 wire) and see if the flipper works?

Well, I hesitate to say this for fear of things not working again, but the solenoids have been working for the last 4 or 5 days now. Thinking maybe a loose pin on the power module board that we pushed in when probing potentially. Not sure, but as of now, it is working. I really appreciate all of your assistance on this and I will keep this post for reference if the solenoids go out again. Thank you so much for all of the help!!

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