(Topic ID: 290328)

Help troubleshooting WPC-89 GI (self inflicted mistake)

By alexanr1

3 years ago


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  • 19 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by Roamin
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 3 years ago

I have been doing this too long to make these kind of mistakes. I was working on the playfield of my recently acquired Party zone and when I turned it back on, I had some sort of playfield short that blew out the red GI on the game. If you are unfamiliar with Party Zone, there are a set of GI lights that are all red.

I made sure the short is no longer there and I swapped the other GI legs and validated the playfield wiring is all good and the red lights up.

It’s clear the circuit on the WPC board was damaged, I get 6.2V from the other 2 GI legs and nothing from the Leg I shorted.
- I pulled the fuse at F10 and it is fine. (A little mad it didn’t blow the fuse)

The “red” GI is controlled by Q18 (triac)
- Triac Q18 appears to test fine as well as transistor Q17.
NOTE: I took out the heat sink screw in the pic.

Tested the triac the following way:
- connect the positive lead of multimeter to the MT1 terminal of triac and negative lead to the MT2 terminal of triac
- connect the MT1 and gate to positive lead and MT2 to negative lead.
- The multimeter showed a low resistance reading.
NOTE: Not sure if this test is applicable if this triac requires high gate voltage and current for triggering.

Could Q18 still be bad but tested ok? Something else I should be checking on the board?
- I don’t have a triac on hand to swap out and test, will have to order some.

Thoughts?

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#2 3 years ago
Quoted from alexanr1:

I have been doing this too long to make these kind of mistakes.

Don't be hard on yourself. It's easier to make mistakes when you are familiar with the work.

Quoted from alexanr1:

Could Q18 still be bad but tested ok?

I'd suspect it.

LTG : )

#3 3 years ago

Does it seem odd the fuse didn’t blow? I will order a couple triac’s tomorrow and hopefully get it mid week. Wondering if I could have damaged anything higher up in the board like a logic chip.

#4 3 years ago
Quoted from alexanr1:

Wondering if I could have damaged anything higher up in the board like a logic chip.

Possible. You'd need somebody smarter than me for figuring out a board issue.

Quoted from alexanr1:

Does it seem odd the fuse didn’t blow?

No. Components will always blow up to save that fuse.

LTG : )

#5 3 years ago

LOL! Makes me wonder if the fuse should have been a 4 amp or 3 amp fuse. Adds no value if it doesn’t blow.

#6 3 years ago

Are you sure the game works fine with the exception of the red GI? It seems odd that's the only thing that some how blew. I would check the whole game first...to see if there are other issues.

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Are you sure the game works fine with the exception of the red GI? It seems odd that's the only thing that some how blew. I would check the whole game first...to see if there are other issues.

I did. I found two led flasher bulbs that were damaged in the event too.
- Replaced them and they work fine.
- Checked all the switches and all 100%.
- No light matrix issues, no sound issues, no solenoid issues nothing else.
- Additionally the game doesn’t report any errors either.

I can double check, but that was the first thing I did when it happened was to see what got damaged.

#8 3 years ago

You might have everything your need right under your nose to figure out what is broken. You have multiple of every parts on the board, except the logic chip LS374. The same circuit is used 5 times. I would disconnect J115 , J119 , J120 and J121 if anything is connected to them. Then , using the schematic I would compare readings on the broken line with readings on a line just below and see what differs. All parts should test very similar.. Probes on R20 should be very similar results to probes on part R9, R15,R14,R17,R11. Same for R21,R9 and all the 10k in that column. Then the transistors Q17,Q9,Q13, etc.. Diode test on the transistors.

Once you identified a possible broken part (The triac mostlikely) you can swap it with the triac in the line below and see if your issue moved, and if a working triac is enough to fix it. It's not impossible that the current went back up to U1 ,the LS374 which drives these triacs. Just as you did for each line , measure pins 2,19,5,16,6 on U1 with a voltmeter , from pin to ground. They should all be very similar. With power off , you can measure continuity between the U1 pins and ground , to see if the chip grounded.

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#9 3 years ago

Check for AC power at J115 for the brown string #1 at pins 3 and 8. If the power is there then it’s probably in the triac components or the J120/121 connector.

Borrowed this diagram fro the Pinwiki

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#10 3 years ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Check for AC power at J115 for the brown string #1 at pins 3 and 8. If the power is there then it’s probably in the triac components or the J120/121 connector.
Borrowed this diagram from the Pinwiki https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#General_Illumination_Problems

[quoted image]

Meant to edit to add link, not quote

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from alexanr1:

LOL! Makes me wonder if the fuse should have been a 4 amp or 3 amp fuse. Adds no value if it doesn’t blow.

You are misunderstanding the role of the fuse. It is there to prevent the machine from catching fire and burning your house down.

The fuse IS NOT there to help save semiconductors in the machine or much else in the machine for that matter.

A semiconductor will short in micro-seconds while a fuse (which is mechanical) can take seconds to go open circuit.

Don't ever rely on a fuse to prevent damage to your machine, it may go open circuit and prevent additional damage but, chances are very high, it won't fuse until some damage has already been done.

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Check for AC power at J115 for the brown string #1 at pins 3 and 8. If the power is there then it’s probably in the triac components or the J120/121 connector.

If the power isn't there (J115, pins 3 and 8), check the connector coming out of the transformer that leads to J115 for burnt pins. Pretty rare for those triacs to go bad.

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

If the power isn't there (J115, pins 3 and 8), check the connector coming out of the transformer that leads to J115 for burnt pins. Pretty rare for those triacs to go bad.

Yep, exactly.

Power could also be at the J115 connector but it’s header is torched.

Suggest working backward and forward on the power chain to see where the voltage is being lost.

Let’s get the party back into this Party Zone.

#14 3 years ago

The question I now have is how was the fuse checked ? With a meter ? Damage is not always visible by eye on a fuse , so always test with a meter. I have more experience with electronics in general than with pinballs , so if phishrace thinks the triacs rarely go bad, I would take than in consideration. Not sure the test you did is correct on the triac though. To test the triac with a multimeter you'd need a jumper to close the gate and trigger the triac for one polarity, then switch the test for the other polarity. I guess this could be done while in circuit if you disconnect both J115 and J120 to make sure both MTx pins on the triac aren't connected anywhere so that your reading is correct. You probably don't need to remove the connection to the resistor R19 , because to test you would short the gate with one of the triggers , bypassing that resistor.

You don't need to desolder anything if you want to isolate the issue though. I made an image of everything you need to see to figure out the issue. With a multimeter and if you go methodically, you can isolate it pretty quick I'm sure. The very first thing is double checking the fuse and making sure you have voltage be J115 pins 3 and 8 (AC voltage) then verify again between J115 pin 8 and J120 pin 7. With those voltages present , you need to investigate the triac driving circuit which starts at the logic IC 74LS374.

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#15 3 years ago

I didn’t check the resistors, will definitely do that too. Like I shared above, the triac (using my multimeter). Tested fine and almost identical to the other triacs. Same for the driver transistors

These boards are old and rather than swapping a component and risking that I left a solder pad, I would rather buy a $2 part and wait for it to come in.

I will order a triac today. Good to have one in the supplies. Need to see what triac knowing the existing one is no longer made, I believe.

Thanks “Roamin” for the comment. Will let you know if I figure it out.

Quoted from emsrph:

Yep, exactly.
Power could also be at the J115 connector but it’s header is torched.
Suggest working backward and forward on the power chain to see where the voltage is being lost.
Let’s get the party back into this Party Zone.

I pulled the board when I had the issue and did a continuity test on all of the traces from header pins back to the triac. I do not have a bench test where I can power the board and trace it like described. I can do some basic “live” tests while plugged in. Have to see what else I can do as you suggest from a troubleshoot check.

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from Roamin:

The question I now have is how was the fuse checked ? With a meter ? Damage is not always visible by eye on a fuse , so always test with a meter. I have more experience with electronics in general than with pinballs , so if phishrace thinks the triacs rarely go bad, I would take than in consideration. Not sure the test you did is correct on the triac though. To test the triac with a multimeter you'd need a jumper to close the gate and trigger the triac for one polarity, then switch the test for the other polarity. I guess this could be done while in circuit if you disconnect both J115 and J120 to make sure both MTx pins on the triac aren't connected anywhere so that your reading is correct. You probably don't need to remove the connection to the resistor R19 , because to test you would short the gate with one of the triggers , bypassing that resistor.
You don't need to desolder anything if you want to isolate the issue though. I made an image of everything you need to see to figure out the issue. With a multimeter and if you go methodically, you can isolate it pretty quick I'm sure. The very first thing is double checking the fuse and making sure you have voltage be J115 pins 3 and 8 (AC voltage) then verify again between J115 pin 8 and J120 pin 7. With those voltages present , you need to investigate the triac driving circuit which starts at the logic IC 74LS374.
[quoted image]

Question 1 on the fuse.
- Absolutely with a meter and outside the machine. Appreciate the question, I don’t assume anything either when helping folks.

Question 2 on testing the triac
I documented in the initial thread how tested it. I thought it was correct. Here it is again:
- connect the positive lead of multimeter to the MT1 terminal of triac and negative lead to the MT2 terminal of triac
- connect the MT1 and gate to positive lead and MT2 to negative lead. (You said this as well)
- The multimeter showed a low resistance reading.

NOTE: I also pulled the board for all tests I did.

I need to look more closely at your suggestions on testing without desolderimg. appreciate all the help!
- Let me know if the first two responses align with your questions and done properly.

I will try to do your isolation trouble shooting tonight and get back.

#17 3 years ago

Well, I figured it out. It was not the TRIAC which I thought it really didn’t think it was bad after testing with my multimeter.

It ended up being the actual J115 ground wire (yellow-white) having a poor connection in its plug (Not the board side, but the plug itself) I tested back all of the traces and had great continuity everywhere and per chance checked them as well just being thorough, sure enough it had broken lose.

I wonder if the ground had a very bad connection and could a surge have made the barely bad connection finally fail. Just odd when I powered it on the came on and then went immediately out.

Thanks to this great community for sticking with me and providing additional thoughts to drive me to trace more.
Special shout out to emsrph and @roamin!

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from alexanr1:

Well, I figured it out. It was not the TRIAC which I thought it really didn’t think it was bad after testing with my multimeter.
It ended up being the actual J115 ground wire (yellow-white) having a poor connection in its plug (Not the board side, but the plug itself) I tested back all of the traces and had great continuity everywhere and per chance checked them as well just being thorough, sure enough it had broken lose.
I wonder if the ground had a very bad connection and could a surge have made the barely bad connection finally fail. Just odd when I powered it on the came on and then went immediately out.
Thanks to this great community for sticking with me and providing additional thoughts to drive me to trace more.
Special shout out to emsrph and Roamin!

Excellent, glad you figured it out!

#19 3 years ago

Definitely possible that a bad connection acts as a fuse when a lot of current passes through. It's the same principle as the fuse itseft.. Wires too small to pass a lot of current that burn.

Glad to hear it's fixed!

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