(Topic ID: 146108)

HELP - Taxi!!


By Pinball_Nate

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 181 posts
  • 16 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by wayout440
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

  • Taxi Williams, 1988

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There are 181 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 4.
#101 3 years ago

Nate. You knew your Pops were out before you sent the board out. Why are you surprised that they are still blown?

The first time you pull the board out and had that hack repair done is when you first noticed the pop issues.

You need to listen to Blackbeard and start visually inspecting everything on that line.

A common problem for pops is you may have bent one of the stack switches on one of those pops.

Or when you were messing around with you GI problem you possibly bent something on that circuit and now have a ground short which is immediately blowing that Fuse.

Get the schematics and write down all solenoids linked to that fuse the physically inspect every wiring and solder joint and diode on that line.

#102 3 years ago

Aux Driver board 5J11-11 Red/White. This wire goes to all 3 pops. Follow that wire from the Aux board and inspect all the wy through. Also look at all 3 pops Lugs make sure solder connection is solid.

Also I believe the Slings shots are on that fuse as well. Make sure their wiring coil and leaf switches are proper. I would bet you have a closed Leaf switch on the Pops or Slings something simple

#103 3 years ago

kporter.....

Thanks, I'm not surprised that they are not working, just surprised that they are dead and that now a fuse is blowing. I was at least getting two that were working, the bottom one was out but other two were ok - now it's nothing. In diagnostics, I had "right bumper 19 Switch Levels" error but I had no clue what the "right bumper" was and was thinking it was the right slingshot - which I inspected at the time and didn't see anything wrong.

I have since the board work - inspected all coils, solder jobs, wiring, and don't see anything bent, touching, etc. I did find that Red/White wire and inspected - looks fine as far as I can see.

I used the DMM on the coil lugs and got solid readings on all three. Physically moved the sleeve inside the coil and did not feel any resistance, etc.

I have actually pulled the aux driver board - here's a photo. You can see a couple of things.

1. Fuse F3 is the one that keeps blowing. (I will be buying a box of these for backup while trouble shooting, I only have 3 new ones).
2. Look at the sand resistor at R9 - it appears that there is some brown/black discoloration on the board above it, how do I measure that with the DMM? I know those things get hot, so it could be just from heat as the "sandy" side of that is pointing up so it would travel across the board like the dark "sooty" pattern shows.

I took a photo of my DMM - when I set it to hFE to measure the transistors, I get a reading of "55" when placing probe on top and other probe at left and right legs - all of them are reading this so it looks like they are ok.

What setting would I use to measure the diodes again? Black goes on banded side....?

Also read that faulty diodes can cause pop bumper coils to stop and that broken diodes can send a spike back to the board (so maybe that's why my fuse keeps blowing immediately when I flip the power on)?

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#104 3 years ago

clockwise from your "off" position,
1-the horseshoe is for "ohms" you measure resistance on that ( resistors, pots)
2-the speaker/arrow is for continuity in a curcuit AND for checking diodes. in this setting the DMM will only send a MA current down the red lead. to check a diode use your leads on one, and it will give you a reading or O.L. the reverse the leads on the diode and see what readings you get. if you get O.L. on BOTH readings diode is shot. if you get readings (numbers) on BOTH readings diode is shot. a diode ONLY flows current ONE direction. it should give a reading ONE direction and O.L. the OTHER direction.
before you mess around with the aux board, have you tried replacing the fuse, REMOVING the J11 connector and then powering it on?? that J11 looks to be the input / output connection , upon powering up the machine with the J11 unplugged from this board and the F3 fuse does not blow , we know for a fact that the issue is NOT on the aux board.

#105 3 years ago

Ok, spent a LOT of time examining everything beneath the pf. Coils are all ok, diodes all ok, no wires touching metal, etc. etc. Only thing I found were two white wires coming from the right pop where some of the insulation was sheared off and wire exposed, I wrapped each with electrical tape to keep them from touching - there wasn't that much actual wire exposed so I really doubt that that was a short, but you never know how they move around once you let the pf down into level position.

I am going to take Is1chris' advice and re-install the board tomorrow minus the J11 plugged in, fire it up and see what happens. I have a feeling it is not the board, it looks really good and everything tested ok with the DMM.

As usual, thanks for the help. Took some time off to finish watching Midnight Cowboy - man, what a movie, really enjoyed it! Great shots of 42nd street in NY during it's "grimy glory(hole) days."

-Nate

#106 3 years ago

Is it possible it is the board, and not transistors but pre driver transistors?

How thorough of a job did the board tech do?

#107 3 years ago

First do what Is1sChris said. Lets find out if its an on board or off board problem.

2nd: That switch error. The slings have 2 switches that run in parallel. They are leaf switches. The rubber pushes up against them and when ball hits rubber the rubber gives and the leaf switch closes. Make sure that both switches are soldered on correctly, that the diode is correct and that both switches are properly gapped.

3rd: You say you tested all 5 coils. How did you test em?

After you do Is1sChris test we can dig deeper into this question

#108 3 years ago

Also you should buy a Fuse breaker saves money on troubleshooting

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/making-and-using-a-fuse-breaker

#109 3 years ago
Quoted from Blackbeard:

Is it possible it is the board, and not transistors but pre driver transistors?
How thorough of a job did the board tech do?

Nate said his repair guy had board 100% running. But he only did the Driver board not Aux board. Everything was working fine then Nate started pulling boards and messing with stuff. Id bet something was bumped. That fuse runs the 3 pops and 2 slings. I still thing he has a broke diode , pinched wire or bad solder joint on 1 of those 5 coils

#110 3 years ago

As a test, just find any 2 lug coil under the playfield, put the leads on either lug, set to ohms, and you should see a rock solid reading >3 ohms.

I followed the above quote - all looked good on the readings.

Good idea on the fusebreaker, will get on that.

Board tech went over entire board, he hooks it up to simulate an install and puts it through a "stress test" to make sure all components are ok. I'm pretty sure the board is fine.

It looks like the aux driver board is also good. I know there is ??? about diode testing while they are connected, I didn't remove one end of diode, but tested them attached, all read fine. Thinking maybe something on the switch stack is bad, I also looked at the slings, they look ok, but will re-look at them today.

Man, I wish it was something simple - I will keep looking with the proverbial "fine toothed comb"!!!

Urrrrgh!

Thanks again for all the help. Will do what Chris suggested and see what happens, will be out today - try to get some fuses also.

-Nate

#111 3 years ago

You cannot test diodes on coils with both sides attached.

Also, you keep saying you checked things, but you aren't providing details about what you did. You need to slow down and focus on eliminating variables. Start with the sugeesions of removing the connector and booting the game. That will focus you on the problem area more.

Marc

#112 3 years ago

Marc, will be doing this today, am going to pick up a circuit breaker to install so I don't have to keep blowing fuses.

Sorry, I am all over the map, will try to be more succinct in my observations and recording them.

-Nate

#113 3 years ago

Ok, here's a more controlled report:

1. Visually inspected Left and Right slingshots, gap between contacts is good, soldering is good, no metal, exposed wires crossed, etc.

2. Visually inspected all 3 pops - found same to be true as #1, no issues.

3. Re-installed the aux driver board with new fuse and left plug J11 unplugged.

4. Turned on machine, the fuse did NOT blow.

5. Got message that I have been getting but ignoring when machine was playing fine: "Press Adv Button for Test Report"

6. I pressed the Advance button inside the coin door.

7. Got these messages: "Check switch 19 / Left Bumper" and "Check switch 43 / Spinout Kicker"

8. Turned off machine, visually inspected switch 43.

9. Ran switch level and switch edge test on switch 43, they seemed to respond when I pressed the switch down (I removed the switch from pf in order to do this as it normally sits beneath the spinout dish and is impossible to get to).

10. I did not check 19 / Left Bumper as I am not sure which that is referring to.

11. Turned off machine and came upstairs to post results to you guys.

So, I am thinking that it is not the board, based on the test of leaving the plug off the board. So I think that is good news.

Please tell me my next step and I will follow. I simply can't see anything wrong beneath the pf???!!!!

Thank you again, again, etc.....

Nate

#114 3 years ago

Everything else on switch row 3 works?

#115 3 years ago

You proved that your issue is in the game and wiring and not on the board. Great first step!

What I have done in the past is jumper each pin on the board connector one at a time, power cycling between until you figure out which wire is causing the fuse to blow. Then you'll know exactly which circuit is at issue and you can dig even deeper into what's going on.

Marc

#116 3 years ago

Blackbeard, good question, I will have to go back and check the other switches in that row 3. I don't think they work, I couldn't start a game "credit button," "ball wouldn't eject into shooter lane or move into position if fed between flippers "ball trough" - R. Jet bumper not working (all of them but that might be the problem child there), Middle drop targets (have to check), Catapult (have to check).

I was assuming that was because I did not have the auxillary board plugged in at J11, so am not getting some of the "functionality."

Everything in the switch matrix checks out with that plug location on the aux board, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Ok, now what? Should I try plugging in J11 w/o the pesky R Jet Bumper wired (desolder so it isn't active)? Then, if the other things work, I know it is something to do with that and just re-build the damn thing.......

Here's what I've done since last post:

1. Ran diagnostics again after re-installing switch for spinout kickout, I simply clicked the switch a few times manually, made sure nothing was touching anything else on the switch solder job itself, and re-installed the switch. Error for that switch went away when turning machine on.

2. Uncoupled switch stack on R Jet Bumper, visually inspected, looked ok. Re-installed. Turned machine on, error for that switch remains when test report prompt came up again when machine powered on.

3. Found plugs on the CPU board at 1J10 and 1J8, reseated them, checked if pins were loose, they were not.

4. Manual mentions test for "Playfield or CPU?" where you jumper between (I'm guessing pin locations) at J10 and J8 while in switch test. Does this mean I can touch one end of alligator to the pin associated with r pop and it should indicate the switch "activating?" I'm not clear on this.

5. What exactly IS the switch on a pop bumper???

Here are two photos, I bought a new switch stack (partial) and compared to the old one, it has a diode in the center of the stack once you add the other components on top of it, and it doesn't have a preinstalled blue metal cannister and another banded resistor like my old one - should I test these two "resistors" if that's the right term on the switch stack.

I made some rough notes in blue on the original switch stack compared to the new "half" of one.....

I also bought extra diodes, should I replace the diodes since it appears hard to get a good reading unless you uncouple one end from the switch stack.

What is my next step?

Thanks,

Nate

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#117 3 years ago

Slow down. Plug everything back in.

Go into diagnostics and test those switches in row 3.

It is sounding like a whole row is out which means it's most likely something easily fixed.

So. Go check those switches. Report back.

#118 3 years ago

Ok, I tested all the switches in row 3: Credit button, ball trough 1, R Jet Bumper, Middle bank DT (left), Catapult, Top Kicker.

ALL of these are working in Switch Edge test, when I physically activated the switches at these spots. I don't know where the switches are for the Jet Bumpers, so that one I did not "engage" manually.

I got no indications of any switches stuck "on" when running the Switch Levels test.

Remember, I still have NOT plugged in J11 which we are thinking causes the fuse to blow on the Aux Driver Board.

What next?

Nate

#119 3 years ago

If you want to activate the pop bumper switches, manually push the metal ring down with your hand. That will engage the scoring switch. Those switches have two switches on them. One that the skirt/spoon triggers to engage the solenoid. The other switch is engaged by the movement of the rod/ring into the solenoid.

Marc

#120 3 years ago

If you want to activate the pop bumper switches, manually push the metal ring down with your hand. That will engage the scoring switch. Those switches have two switches on them. One that the skirt/spoon triggers to engage the solenoid. The other switch is engaged by the movement of the rod/ring into the solenoid.

Marc

#121 3 years ago

Your photo of that switch stack...that top leaf switch is bent to shit. Might not be problem but might be time to rebuild your pops.

Also that diode looks like its touching that screw. Is that an optical illusion? The diodes cant be touching anything but lugs

I believe the ball eject coil is on same J11

#122 3 years ago

Stealing some GREAT text from Markmon:

"Once I have eliminated the board as the issue, I get my ohm meter and put it on continuity mode where it beeps when the ends touch. Then I put the black lead into the ground braid and using the red lead I touch each pin of the connector I removed until I find the shorted one. Then I know which wire has the short. Trace that back to the coil etc"

That's a heck of a good way to start.

#123 3 years ago
Quoted from kporter946286:

Also that diode looks like its touching that screw. Is that an optical illusion? The diodes cant be touching anything but lugs

Yes, unfortunately just an optical illusion, that diode is ok. First thing I looked for. But good to know they should not be touching anything - I'll check that.

Also, thanks for the pop switch tutorial, was pressing the plastic apron only, will try pushing the ring down.

-Nate

#124 3 years ago

schonb25 -

Thanks, that is really good advice, I will do that today - gotta get this problem solved!! Kporter also found a great Taxi thread with exact same problem and it turned out to be the knocker coil affecting everything (!)! Will try that also.

Thanks guys, will keep trying, appreciate your hanging in there with me!!

-Nate

#125 3 years ago

If it's the knocker, that would be ver easy as it has a Molex plug connector. You can simply unplug it and plug the J11 back in and see if you're fixed. It will only cost you a fuse. You can verify that in under 120 seconds.

Marc

#126 3 years ago

Okay! Looks like it is indeed the knocker. I did unplug the Molex connector, turned on the machine, and presto - had pop bumpers and everything working, and was not requested to push the Advance button for a test report.

HOWEVER:

There is still an issue.

I installed a brand-new socket at Lola, the blinking GI that is on during attract mode.

I noticed that after the instal, and with a brand-new bulb in there, that connection was not "blinking" as it should be (never totally off) (Yes, this is a regular incadescent bulb), and that now the "Ride Again" light was intermittently coming on and off as well.

I took out the bulb from Lola and the Ride Again light was back and behaving properly.

What the hell?!?!

I will deal with the knocker also, I will take a picture later today and see if it is installed correctly.

One issue I haven't bothered with since I got the pinball is that none of the "Award categories" that are supposed to light up on the speaker/score display panel (the small squares with Extra Ball etc printed on them) they are all dead. Bulb test does not light them either.

I will look at that board, I did replace all the bulbs.

Any ideas about the socket? I will post a photo of that as well.

Arrrrgh! But at least it is playable!

Thanks,

Nate

#127 3 years ago
Quoted from Pinball_Nate:

I installed a brand-new socket at Lola, the blinking GI that is on during attract mode.

did you install the wires backwards for that new LOLA socket?

#128 3 years ago

Here's a pic of the new socket and an existing one that works: I can't see any difference to the other "character bulbs."

I had to sketch in the diode on an existing socket that works as it was too close to camera lens, but the banded side is on same lug as two wires, opposite end on a lug by itself.......weird........

Also, here is the knocker, not much to that, do I have the rod that sits inside pointed in the right direction? Metal up, plastic down? I guess I can check the coil on that, doesn't look like there is anything else that can go bad on that one.

I'm going to have the quietest Taxi, my bell never has worked and now the knocker is out......Shhhhhh, hey Taxi, psssst.

-Nate

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#129 3 years ago

The knocker coil is in upside down and the lugs are shorting against the plate. Flip it around and it should be OK ;/)

#130 3 years ago

Ah-ha! Ok, great (doh!) I can turn the coil around, does the knocker inside look right? I would think the metal points up the way I have it.....

Thanks,

Nate

#131 3 years ago
Quoted from Pinball_Nate:

Ah-ha! Ok, great (doh!) I can turn the coil around, does the knocker inside look right? I would think the metal points up the way I have it.....
Thanks,
Nate

The plastic nub hits the top of the backbox. Plastic nub up

#132 3 years ago

And to be clear, the coil goes in between the two pieces of metal you have in the picture. It's currently not only upside down, but it's sitting in the wrong spot.

Google image search for "Williams Knocker Wiring" for several good pictures.

Marc

#133 3 years ago

Your socket1 Photo shows some burned wires probably from your soldering Iron. You may have burnt through the wire or getting your problems from those wires?

And your socket2 photos shows a lot of old Flux (the orange stuff) leaking around the solder joint. Might want to reflow solder to those connections too, but be careful not to burn through the wires!

And the guys are correct, your knocker is upside down and backwards. Looks like those lugs were shorting out to the metal, Unfortunately you may have blown your Driver for the knocker.

For now I would just leave it unhooked and play the game for a while you deserve some fun, enough with all this repair work!

#134 3 years ago

Yes, yes, I did burn through the wire insulation a little bit, was thinking about re-wiring/soldering that one.

That other socket, believe it or not, is acting fine, was just using that for reference.

Aw, man, I'll look where the driver is for the knocker - but you are correct, for now I've got the glass on and playing a few games........

Will get that knocker turned around the right way!!!1

-Nate

#135 3 years ago

My Red/orange wire and Dioide/banded side, are solder opposite to yours. I would desloder the red/orange wire solder it to the other lug and flip the diode. I think your's is backwards causing your issues.

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#136 3 years ago

kporter, I'll try that, thanks.

Will report back.

-Nate

#137 3 years ago

Okay! Finally! What started this entire mess is fixed. Kporter you are right, and thanks for the photo. Looking closely at the socket, I did have the wired reversed. This is the way the "original" socket was installed, so someone messed-up and i just repeated the problem when following the wires for the re-solder of the new socket.

Lola blinks now. Whew.

Getting an unrelated headache now, it appears that my Molex connectors are not making sufficient contact on the drop targets for Lola and Pinbot. These are the "stuff n crimp" kind, so I imagine the contacts are tarnished, and the wires are probably wearing through. What's the best type of connector to replace these with? Do I pin each end of the wire, insert the pins into a new plastic housing, (for male) plug that into a "double female plug" and put the other female end onto the drop opto board?

If I fiddle around with the plugs, the problem temporarily goes away, but after a few games, re-appears so the movement of the drops is just enough to loosen those very loose connections.

-Nate

#138 3 years ago

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1642

This is what I bought and have never looked back. It has the key (its in the lower right corner. You just pull wires out of old one and key new ones in)

#139 3 years ago
Quoted from Pinball_Nate:

Okay! Finally! What started this entire mess is fixed. Kporter you are right, and thanks for the photo. Looking closely at the socket, I did have the wired reversed. This is the way the "original" socket was installed, so someone messed-up and i just repeated the problem when following the wires for the re-solder of the new socket.
Lola blinks now. Whew.
Getting an unrelated headache now, it appears that my Molex connectors are not making sufficient contact on the drop targets for Lola and Pinbot. These are the "stuff n crimp" kind, so I imagine the contacts are tarnished, and the wires are probably wearing through. What's the best type of connector to replace these with? Do I pin each end of the wire, insert the pins into a new plastic housing, (for male) plug that into a "double female plug" and put the other female end onto the drop opto board?
If I fiddle around with the plugs, the problem temporarily goes away, but after a few games, re-appears so the movement of the drops is just enough to loosen those very loose connections.
-Nate

yeah Porters a good one. We keep him around here. Knows his stuff. And he has my old taxi!

As for your drop targets: It sounds like cold solder joints. Both taxi's I've owned had this issue as those drops are used a lot, especially the lola targets. Here's what I would do: pull out each drop target assembly (work on one at a time). Reflow the solder on the male connectors on the pcb boards. You have cold solder joints I'd bet my life.

Does lola coil always sound like it's resetting? Or it just doesn't reset? Cold solder joints on the male header pins of the drop target opto board. Easy fix (just a bit time consuming yanking the assemblies out)

#140 3 years ago

Nate, Looking back at this 4 weeks ago, you had a blinking light issue. Look at how much you have learned and how much more confident and comfortable you are with all of this.

This is why I always recommend jumping in head first. I am proud of you and your resolve.

Did it cost you a few bucks...Yes. But if you would have buried your head in the sand and called in a Tech it would have cost you 2x as much and you would have learned nothing.

This is the school of hard knocks and you passed.

Be proud! Finish this job and have a great new year.

#141 3 years ago

Also, while you have those assemblies out, it's a good time to clean them off. I just yanked two police force (same assemblies) to do the same yesterday. Makes the targets slide down great! Lots of e clips...

Also, very important: run a q tip inside those optos to clean them. Add some windex to the qtips. Cleaning those optos is a great idea.

#142 3 years ago
Quoted from Blackbeard:

As for your drop targets: It sounds like cold solder joints.

BB is right it could be cold solder if you are moving whole plastic molex and its going on and off.

but if your just lightly wiggling wires, its the molex.

I have to change out molex connectors this weekend in my BSD for GI, in my TOTAN for GI and in my BOP for pops lights. None are cold solder all are shitty old molex's

So double check. Again if you are able to move whole plastic molex and its the molex that is causing issues then reflow and be done.

but if your are just touching wires and lights are going on and off its def the molex.

You could just buy a Key and push those wires back in, but that kit is a must for anyone with more than 1 pin.

#143 3 years ago

I've had a few system 11 pins that needed the joints reflowed on these drop assemblies. It's very common nate. Just pull them out, clean them, and reflow the male headers on the little green opto boards.

#144 3 years ago

Thanks kporter and Blackbeard!

Yes, I'm proud of myself, and i really appreciate everyone's help. Thanks again!!

I should mention that both of the drop opto boards are *brand new* so I really doubt it's cold solder joints (at least I would hope not!). But thanks for pointing that out, as it will come in handy when I purchase my next pin (haha!!).

I'm going to re-do the connectors based on the fact that the boards are new, and that wiggling the actual wires seemed to temporarily stop the problem.

Lola was the main culprit, I wasn't getting any scoring from knocking the targets down, and the targets would keep popping "up" although they were already in the up position. Last time, it was something new, the Pinbot targets crapped out - I'll tell you what happens when I re-do the connectors.

Yowsa! I don't know if I need quite that many connectors!!

Was I right about the sequence though? metal pin on each cut wire, insert into male socket, use female socket to fit onto one end of male socket, other end gets plugged into the opto board end?

Also, these wires are "looped" with no end the way they are done now - do I cut the loop and make an "end" by twisting the two pieces together and then crimping the pin over them??

I can practice re-flowing the solder on the old opto boards which I kept. Boy, I know how to have FUN!! hahahha!

Happy New Year guys........

Nate

#145 3 years ago

I'm sorry, I didn't think to check back to this thread until now. I'm Allan, the tech that did the board work. Looking at those close-ups, it looks terrible! It looks so much better in person, and is very robust. In case anyone was wondering, I use a Williams system 11 test fixture to test the boards before they go out.

Nate, I'm glad you got your game problems sorted out. Happy new year!

#146 3 years ago

You don't need to splice the wire. You place wire in the slot and push down with a Molex Key and there are little metal blades that cut into the wire for you.

#147 3 years ago

You should put game into switch test knock down a drop target and see if it registers.

I think you are losing the +12 volt line do to loose wire. Which is causing your issue.

Take photos if what you are talking about to make sure we are on same page.

#148 3 years ago

Allen:

Happy New Year! Thanks for checking in.........appreciate all your help and the sooper quick turnaround on the board.

Will keep you in mind if something else goes awry!!!

-Nate

#149 3 years ago

kporter:

Will do, so it's ok to re-crimp the wires with a new connector? Gotcha. I assumed the crimping method was not the best........

Happy New Year!

Nate

#150 3 years ago

Your Lingo and my Lingo haven't always been the same. I dont know what you mean. Here is the tool I use. You place wire over hole and Press it in. No crimping

WP_20160101_14_28_28_Pro_(resized).jpg

WP_20160101_14_28_28_Pro_(resized).jpg

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