(Topic ID: 298546)

HELP!! Needed From JJP Owners With Playfield Damage

By AMSNL

3 months ago


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  • 296 posts
  • 109 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 25 days ago by tdiddy
  • Topic is favorited by 44 Pinsiders

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There are 296 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 6.
#151 3 months ago

I'm just going to put this pic in. I got GnR on preorder still, seeing all this going down is certainly depressing. Is there a chance these two can sort out all the issues before it ships?

micro (resized).JPG
14
#152 3 months ago
Quoted from butterz:

I'm just going to put this pic in. I got GnR on preorder still, seeing all this going down is certainly depressing. Is there a chance these two can sort out all the issues before it ships?
[quoted image]

In that picture I see Hobbit was on the line and all I can say is Hobbit playfields seem like some of the best ever made. Extremely durable with minimal dimpling. Whatever was being done back then to make the playfields should just be repeated.

#153 3 months ago

THIS^^

#154 3 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

In that picture I see Hobbit was on the line and all I can say is Hobbit playfields seem like some of the best ever made. Extremely durable with minimal dimpling. Whatever was being done back then to make the playfields should just be repeated.

Agree 100%. Whatever you were doing then, do it again, Mirco. Had a Hobbit with a beautiful playfield.

#155 3 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

In that picture I see Hobbit was on the line and all I can say is Hobbit playfields seem like some of the best ever made. Extremely durable with minimal dimpling. Whatever was being done back then to make the playfields should just be repeated.

The problems started when Mirco went to digital printing instead of screening the art. Hobbit was screened. Never heard of an issue with one. They've done three crappy digitally printed JJP playfields with roughly the same issues in a row now. After 3 failures and more than 4 years, it's clear Mirco's not going back to screening. Hopefully JJP is actually DOING something about it and moving on.

#156 3 months ago
Quoted from nicoy3k:

If I got that PM I’d tell him to suck a phatty

I think he's already got you covered there:

Quoted from AMSNL:

pff tell them to suck on a wonka bar and do a oempa loempa

-8
#157 3 months ago

FYI - It's not entirely on Mirco people.

You ever see a Mirco PF Repro. They are very nice.

Have you ever seen someone not use proper fasteners on a PF and what that does overtime. Wood, humidity and pressure = lots of issues on old Pinballs including all the Williams, Bally Games over time.

It might be in the best interest of the owner to photograph and document the game before you play it. Take of the glass and photograph that new PF before you put the balls in it. If there is a defect nows your time to scream bloody murder. Not after you've plunked around for a couple weeks.

That said I have never had any issues with Mirco's aftermarket playfields for my restored games. They've always been very nice and I don't see any dimpling or issues like I do on my Sterns.

That said think JJP needs to step up along with Stern. I don't see these issues on my Spooky PFs or American Pinball games.. Knock on wood. but not to hard on the CC.

All this said.. I sold my Wonka many many moons ago buyer said that their was pooling but I never saw any. People read these post and most of them become instant experts on PF manufacture. I do not claim to be that. I've seen some pretty god awful Clear Coat jobs in my years collecting . I think the issue is just perfect storm of quick turn around and new line workers without PF QA class.

Imagine a NIB game with Pooling and PF issues sold as is at a Premium to someone.. Ergh no thanks.

#158 3 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

<snip>Hopefully JJP is actually DOING something about it and moving on.

They are. They are working on getting new customers by blaming the old ones. Seems like a long shot.

#159 3 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

The problems started when Mirco went to digital printing instead of screening the art.

I don't think this is true. You can go back to the old CPR vs Micro repo threads and find where Kevin at CPR was convinced Micro was doing digital printing but wasn't saying it at the time. I am under the impression they've done digital print from the start, with screened effects.

14
#160 3 months ago
Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

FYI - It's not entirely on Mirco people.

By my estimation, 70% Mirco's issue, at least. He LOVES to take no blame for his product shortcomings. This is WELL DOCUMENTED. It should be his catchphrase. "Mirco: Not my Fault!"

Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

You ever see a Mirco PF Repro. They are very nice.
Have you ever seen someone not use proper fasteners on a PF and what that does overtime. Wood, humidity and pressure = lots of issues on old Pinballs including all the Williams, Bally Games over time.
It might be in the best interest of the owner to photograph and document the game before you play it. Take of the glass and photograph that new PF before you put the balls in it. If there is a defect nows your time to scream bloody murder. Not after you've plunked around for a couple weeks.

The Mirco issue is ink adhesion to the playfield sucking and super-soft clear that doesn't cure right. That becomes apparent over time. You can stare at an uninstalled, glossy Mirco repro playfield for a year or five and it will look great. The trouble starts when steel meets the clear.

When 75% of Ron Kruzman's business is FIXING Mirco playfields (as he stated), MIRCO HAS A PROBLEM.

#161 3 months ago
Quoted from DanQverymuch:

Mirco lost me as a potential customer back when he decided to deceptively put the Diamond Plate logo on his repro FunHouse playfields, despite being advised against it on RGP at the time.
Only a couple hundred early FHs had it, if that.

Curious what a FH diamond plate logo looks like?

#162 3 months ago
Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

FYI - It's not entirely on Mirco people.
You ever see a Mirco PF Repro. They are very nice.
Have you ever seen someone not use proper fasteners on a PF and what that does overtime. Wood, humidity and pressure = lots of issues on old Pinballs including all the Williams, Bally Games over time.
It might be in the best interest of the owner to photograph and document the game before you play it. Take of the glass and photograph that new PF before you put the balls in it. If there is a defect nows your time to scream bloody murder. Not after you've plunked around for a couple weeks.
That said I have never had any issues with Mirco's aftermarket playfields for my restored games. They've always been very nice and I don't see any dimpling or issues like I do on my Sterns.
That said think JJP needs to step up along with Stern. I don't see these issues on my Spooky PFs or American Pinball games.. Knock on wood. but not to hard on the CC.
All this said.. I sold my Wonka many many moons ago buyer said that their was pooling but I never saw any. People read these post and most of them become instant experts on PF manufacture. I do not claim to be that. I've seen some pretty god awful Clear Coat jobs in my years collecting . I think the issue is just perfect storm of quick turn around and new line workers without PF QA class.
Imagine a NIB game with Pooling and PF issues sold as is at a Premium to someone.. Ergh no thanks.

I have bought maybe 6 repro PFs from mirco and had issues with every one. Lukily he has replaced them, no questions asked and no return needed. The last one however was a TZ that the clear completely turned white. He replaced it but the one he sent had issues as well and he wouldnt send another. I guess he is done with customer service.

#163 3 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

The problems started when Mirco went to digital printing instead of screening the art. Hobbit was screened. Never heard of an issue with one. They've done three crappy digitally printed JJP playfields with roughly the same issues in a row now. After 3 failures and more than 4 years, it's clear Mirco's not going back to screening. Hopefully JJP is actually DOING something about it and moving on.

Wow, is that true?

I just don't understand why they don't remove art around the posts like Stern and Spooky have done until the digital printing thing is all sorted out. It honestly just baffles me.

#164 3 months ago
Quoted from thechakapakuni:

Curious what a FH diamond plate logo looks like?

Here's one some sucker got took for $2400 on, one of the repros no doubt, for why would anyone have Kruzman clear an original DP?

IMG_0535_grande (resized).jpeg
#165 3 months ago
Quoted from DanQverymuch:

Here's one some sucker got took for $2400 on, one of the repros no doubt, for why would anyone have Kruzman clear an original DP?
[quoted image]

Because the originals are 33 years old and most likely have a bare spot down the left side where the kickout hits the PF and someone had it restored and cleared?

#166 3 months ago

Oh nice, is that under the apron?

#167 3 months ago
Quoted from zr11990:

Because the originals are 33 years old and most likely have a bare spot down the left side where the kickout hits the PF and someone had it restored and cleared?

This was supposedly NOS, should have mentioned. More like NNS!

Quoted from thechakapakuni:

Oh nice, is that under the apron?

Nope, below the right flipper.

#168 3 months ago

Gotta choose your battles, is this one worth taking a sword over? I doubt it, just speak with your wallet.

15
#169 3 months ago

I would do nothing. Mirco has threatened legal actions to numerous people & companies over the years. Even got caught being a liar to me, about having exclusive Classic Stern rights. He was quick to have his threatening private message removed & would not post it up. Gave me a half ass apology after he came out of hiding! https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/mirco-exclusive-classic-stern-parts-manufacturer

I continued to post trying to help out people making playfields. From what I see with Mirco has maybe a large percentage of his playfields are good, & a low percentage are bad. Everyone that is making playfields for the industry do not have 100% perfect playfields. I was one of the early pioneers with printing uv inkjet playfields. What my printer doing playfields the last 8+ years, is mask the back of each playfield with 3M. I personally seal all the playfields with 2 coats of Varethane Gloss water base that is filtered before use. You do not want to print to bare wood. The printer does white & then color twice. Playfields are allowed to air dry for days until you can no longer smell the ink. Most playfields get a light mist & then heavy coat of auto clear, & then a final one. If you rush the last process you can get a reaction mostly with black ink. If you screw something up in the auto clear it will be soft by either rushing it, too much, or at the end of pot life.

What you see at times is very thin clear on playfields. Which gives little protection! If you see the big players like Stern, JJP, & all the others are playfields that should be rejected & sent back for rework. This seems to be a big problem the last 10 years, quality control is poor, or they need to feed the line with some poor quality playfields.

Also over the 200+ new playfields over the last 8+ years by me, had 0% that pooled clear, or had ink delaminate with clear off the playfields. Also my printer does ink everywhere there is no bare wood surface (why he backs them with 3M masking). So you wonder why manufactures thought that it should be removed near posts & just have wood.

When you do factory tours they use to go on about the torque setting for screwing stuff to playfields. Plus you would see pounding parts to the playfield. So where Jack starts blaming end customers is weird. Some cnc playfields after inking. Mirco might be the only one doing ink with clear, cnc, & final clear on top at times. If that is what some are saying, & he is having some problems. He also believes in his robot mass production, maybe not enough human QC on finished playfields.

IMG_0058 (resized).JPG
#170 3 months ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

Wow, is that true?
I just don't understand why they don't remove art around the posts like Stern and Spooky have done until the digital printing thing is all sorted out. It honestly just baffles me.

The timelines seem to match up. Someone posted information that corroborated when Mirco made the switch to digital printing and it was after Hobbit. I wish I had saved the posts. No idea where it was now because it was years ago.

To take the art away around the posts still won't fix Mirco's crappy soft never-cure™ clear, and it would be tacitly admitting there's a problem with art not sticking to the wood. Mirco does not admit anything. Ever.

I'm just stunned JJP hasn't had a hard sit-down with him yet to explain the facts of how this needs to go to remain in a relationship, because it's screwing over JJP during what should be an explosion of popularity with GnR, followed by Toy Story, followed by a cartoon theme, followed by SR's Magnum Opus.

#171 3 months ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

I would do nothing. Mirco has threatened legal actions to numerous people & companies over the years. Even got caught being a liar to me, about having exclusive Classic Stern rights. He was quick to have his threatening private message removed & would not post it up. Gave me a half ass apology after he came out of hiding! https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/mirco-exclusive-classic-stern-parts-manufacturer
I continued to post trying to help out people making playfields. From what I see with Mirco has maybe a large percentage of his playfields are good, & a low percentage are bad. Everyone that is making playfields for the industry do not have 100% perfect playfields. I was one of the early pioneers with printing uv inkjet playfields. What my printer doing playfields the last 8+ years, is mask the back of each playfield with 3M. I personally seal all the playfields with 2 coats of Varethane Gloss water base that is filtered before use. You do not want to print to bare wood. The printer does white & then color twice. Playfields are allowed to air dry for days until you can no longer smell the ink. Most playfields get a light mist & then heavy coat of auto clear, & then a final one. If you rush the last process you can get a reaction mostly with black ink. If you screw something up in the auto clear it will be soft by either rushing it, too much, or at the end of pot life.
What you see at times is very thin clear on playfields. Which gives little protection! If you see the big players like Stern, JJP, & all the others are playfields that should be rejected & sent back for rework. This seems to be a big problem the last 10 years, quality control is poor, or they need to feed the line with some poor quality playfields.
Also over the 200+ new playfields over the last 8+ years by me, had 0% that pooled clear, or had ink delaminate with clear off the playfields. Also my printer does ink everywhere there is no bare wood surface (why he backs them with 3M masking). So you wonder why manufactures thought that it should be removed near posts & just have wood.
When you do factory tours they use to go on about the torque setting for screwing stuff to playfields. Plus you would see pounding parts to the playfield. So where Jack starts blaming end customers is weird. Some cnc playfields after inking. Mirco might be the only one doing ink with clear, cnc, & final clear on top at times. If that is what some are saying, & he is having some problems. He also believes in his robot mass production, maybe not enough human QC on finished playfields.[quoted image]

greatwichjohn thank you for your responds and knowledge I appriciate it !

28
#172 3 months ago
Quoted from AMSNL:

I'm not sure if you are aware of how expensive this could come but I can tell you that this would turn out into a serious thing for you. I have already done that with someone else and it was no fun for him.

This statement - in and of itself (if it truly was made by Mirco) - would be the end of Mirco being taken seriously in a court of law in the United States…it is misconduct to threaten someone with litigation costs to try and get a civil result…it could even be viewed as extortion in some circumstances…and to allege (in fact bragging) he has already victimized someone with this method…

Why is JJP in bed with this fellow again?

#173 3 months ago

Also the big thing to remember is CPR has switched mostly to uv inkjet production for years. https://classicplayfields.com/
They have not had these problems reported like Mirco. Mirco is a huge Robotic factory for playfields to fill the needs of pinball manufacturers & owners of games. He does not release much info on what he does, or pictures of his operation in Germany. Which seems to be the way of most playfield manufacturers except for the smaller guys in the business. Or with this tour:

https://www.pinballnews.com/site/2016/11/04/churchill-cabinet-company-tour/#:~:text=The%20video%20bubble%20burst%2C%20of%20course%2C%20but%20pinball,facility.%20The%20Churchill%20Cabinet%20Company%20factory%20in%20Chicago

These guys seem to have the highest quality I have seen over the years, & very open about their process: https://www.buthamburg.de/en/playfields

#174 3 months ago

Interesting read, Thank you for the link. especially this part where they cut a playfield in 4 pieces and tested the clearcoat in diff settings.

IF mirco playfields was just a bit more open to this whole thing. And was looking for a way to make this better it would be better for everybody, as in the last years me and I know anybody in the pinball industry has more then enough of this.everyday there is a new topic about bad playfields,broken parts, no customer support etc and yes most of that is from JJP/mirco.

Even now this topic is forming about getting sued. It’s really hitting a bad point in history. Again I’m sorry for derailing pinside for what it should be “having a big family that’s enjoys pinball as a complete thing”

Now it’s the talk of the day does your machine has playfield damage?! Where normal it should be how does the game play etc etc, when can I play it instead of please don’t touch or the playfield will fall apart on my 10k+ game

10
#175 3 months ago

The guy clearly learns nothing from his mistakes...

Screenshot_20210814-084934_Free Adblocker Browser (resized).jpg

I'm enjoying the irony of his username

#176 3 months ago

From my research, they got some full automation with robots doing the playfield's. This doesn't look cheep to set up.

Perhaps the sprayer needs a calibration.

#177 3 months ago
Quoted from butterz:

Perhaps the sprayer needs a calibration.

Perhaps mirco playfields needs a calibration...

The issue is not in the machine.it does what a human is giving it. I think It’s in the clear chemicals or in the applying of the artwork to the playfield.but I’m no expert

#178 3 months ago
Quoted from adborto:

I have a GNRCE sitting in a box. No clue if I should open it or sell it. I have bought every single JJP game. I am so sick of the playfield BS. The worry isn’t worth the purchase at this point. I have never had an issue with AP or CGC. The whole I have to beg and send pictures and blah blah blah for a new playfield that should have been 100% good out of the box is getting old.

Dump it, bro.

#179 3 months ago
Quoted from AMSNL:

Perhaps mirco playfields needs a calibration...
The issue is not in the machine.it does what a human is giving it. I think It’s in the clear chemicals or in the applying of the artwork to the playfield.but I’m no expert

Just needs some washers, bro. Then, it's good to go.

#180 3 months ago
Quoted from butterz:

From my research, they got some full automation with robots doing the playfield's. This doesn't look cheep to set up. Perhaps the sprayer needs a calibration.

There’s your issue right there. Oh man

#181 3 months ago
Quoted from butterz:

From my research, they got some full automation with robots doing the playfield's. This doesn't look cheep to set up. Perhaps the sprayer needs a calibration.

Nice. What was the result with WOZ playfields? Issues?

11
#182 3 months ago

Not sure if this has been shared .. but watch this Mirco AFM clearcoat fly off

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CSkk90bngO_/?utm_medium=copy_link

Attached the clear that blew off and the repaired and recleared PF!

Hard to fight the truth

901125D2-4F11-4E08-938C-730004445129 (resized).jpegD2B1E582-3D0D-4649-B8C2-72941CBB8D26 (resized).jpeg
#183 3 months ago

Yikes! That’s makes sense from that robot video.

21
#184 3 months ago

I put that Mirco AfM vs Air cage match on youtube so it will play directly on Pinside without allowing Facebook to get their hooks in people and steal browser data. Just click the play button to play it without leaving pinside:

Ron Kruzman talks in detail about Mirco and this video here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/kruzman-monthly-playfield-thread/page/27#post-6445107

#185 3 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

I put that Mirco AfM vs air cage match on youtube so it will play directly on Pinside without allowing Facebook to get their hooks in people and steal browser data. Just click the play button to play it without leaving pinside:

You run one hell of a tight ship there, Mirco.

#186 3 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

I put that Mirco AfM vs air cage match on youtube so it will play directly on Pinside without allowing Facebook to get their hooks in people and steal browser data. Just click the play button to play it without leaving pinside:

Interesting video. What's the PSI of that air coming out? Was the playfield prepped / treated in any manner by you prior? It's implied that other playfields wouldn't behave the same way, is that the intended message? Such as a 90s WPC diamond plate or a modern stern?

#187 3 months ago
Quoted from altan:

Interesting video. What's the PSI of that air coming out? Was the playfield prepped / treated in any manner by you prior? It's implied that other playfields wouldn't behave the same way, is that the intended message? Such as a 90s WPC diamond plate or a modern stern?

Not my video. I just reposted it to make it easy for people here to play it without Facebook. If did ask kruzman for his experienced opinion on it, and whether a good clear job should do this.

#188 3 months ago
Quoted from Dallas_Pin:

Not sure if this has been shared .. but watch this Mirco AFM clearcoat fly off
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CSkk90bngO_/?utm_medium=copy_link
Attached the clear that blew off and the repaired and recleared PF!
Hard to fight the truth
[quoted image][quoted image]

Holy crap!!!

#189 3 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

I put that Mirco AfM vs air cage

One way of cleaning a playfield ...

#190 3 months ago

Thats nucking futz...
At least the clear is coming off without the art. That'd make it easier to actually clear it properly.
Crazy arse stuff.

#191 3 months ago

It's like a layer of cling film.

#192 3 months ago

Oke that looks really bad. I know that it’s never gonna take that amount of force like the compressor does. But it shows that the clear is not bonded in any way or form. What I don’t understand is why other brands CAN get there playfields sorted and he can’t. There must be a clearcoat expert somewhere who can precisely put a finger on the issue @ hand

We can put people in to space.... but fixing a clearcoat issue with some brands is like a trip to Pluto

19
#193 3 months ago

The sound that the compressed air makes is the same sound Jack makes when you ask him to stand behind his product

#194 3 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:The problems started when Mirco went to digital printing instead of screening the art. Hobbit was screened. Never heard of an issue with one. They've done three crappy digitally printed JJP playfields with roughly the same issues in a row now. After 3 failures and more than 4 years, it's clear Mirco's not going back to screening. Hopefully JJP is actually DOING something about it and moving on.

Didn't know that Hobbit was the last JJP with a screened playfield, wow.

I wish JJP would spin up their own playfield manufacturering facility that specializes in high quality silkscreen playfields. Hell they could probably turn it into a profitable business by making playfields for classic games as well if they wanted.

#195 3 months ago
Quoted from transprtr4u:

One way of cleaning a playfield ...

That is insane.
Adhesion=0

#196 3 months ago
Quoted from AMSNL:

What I don’t understand is why other brands CAN get there playfields sorted and he can’t.

I’ve used air before on every other manufacturer;
Not once has this happened. So you are right, WTF is happening with Mirco!

#197 3 months ago

Glad to see that video as I use compressed air with pins, but haven’t done it with a Mirco playfield (not topside) I’ll have to be cautious if I use air on a Mirco PF.

#198 3 months ago

As Ive said before pinball margins are much tighter than most think....

I am sure at some point the "process" had to be changed to make them fit the targeted price point either to save on materials or time and hit a number for build of materials.

Since they are selling them direct replacement for under $500 or whatever these cant be that much to produce.

These need to be made faster and cheaper which doesnt exactly scream high quality.

#199 3 months ago

One air source doesn't equal another. Whenever using a compressor to blow out a pinball machine, I suggest limiting the pressure to about 30 psi. You can add more if that is not enough, but best to go from low to high than to start with 150psi and damage something.

#200 3 months ago

Can we finally stop the whole just remove the art where anything touches the playfield bullshit. The clear is fucked and does not adhere or cure properly. I don’t care how hard you blow on the playfield the clear art and wood should be bonded.

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