(Topic ID: 261482)

Help needed: creating a VUK for Radical!


By Chosen_S

1 year ago

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  • Latest reply 6 days ago by Chosen_S
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There are 55 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

The goal: Adding in the prototype Vuk back into Radical! ; needing to create a time delayed firing of the coil for the so it will work consistently.

Here’s what I’ve done:
Created a subway and relocated the snake target switch inside the subway .

Installed proper wire form and vuk hardware that works consistently when solenoid is fired to put ball into wire form and back onto Playfield.
The vuk has the fork switch installed.

Problem: there’s no code for the original prototype vuk to fire; hooking into the mpu directly to the tip102 does not provide enough power, piggybacking onto the coil for the snake drop targets is inconsistent and not a viable situation.

Needed: a circuit with possibly a relay to let the fork switch send a signal, then to wait for the ball to settle in the vuk before ignition. I believe the line with enough power is 75v (that I can pull from the drop targets)

Can anyone help a brother out?

#2 1 year ago

You might see if HEP can provide you with some guidance, I think he recently did this on a restore:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hep-this-week-9-17-18/page/50#post-4825386

#3 1 year ago

Maybe an add-on transistor like gottlieb used, or one of those stand alone bally relay boards?

example: https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C-11232

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from Atari_Daze:

You might see if HEP can provide you with some guidance, I think he recently did this on a restore:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hep-this-week-9-17-18/page/50#post-4825386

Thank you, I shot a message out

Quoted from ForceFlow:

Maybe an add-on transistor like gottlieb used, or one of those stand alone bally relay boards?
example: https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C-11232

Do those snubbed boards handle 75v ? I’ll start investigating in the mean time

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Maybe an add-on transistor like gottlieb used, or one of those stand alone bally relay boards?
example: https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C-11232

I did once upon a time try out a pbb080 and came up dry, I don’t think it could handle 75v

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

Can anyone help a brother out?

Sure why not.

Quoted from Chosen_S:

hooking into the mpu directly to the tip102 does not provide enough power

Use the TIP 102 to fire a relay, the relay will fire the VUK at 75 volts giving you twice the power. Do you still need a delay?

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Sure why not.

Use the TIP 102 to fire a relay, the relay will fire the VUK at 75 volts giving you twice the power. Do you still need a delay?

That’s great! Which relay works here?

Yes, the delay helps with the ball to rest in the vuk to stabilize before being fired, need at least 1 to 2 seconds... actually the cpu spends about 6 seconds calculating the award for hitting the subway snake target.

#8 1 year ago

The fork switch that you have on the vuk, is it connected to the cpu switch matrix for the award. Or can this fork switch be used for the relay trigger?

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

The fork switch that you have on the vuk, is it connected to the cpu switch matrix for the award. Or can this fork switch be used for the relay trigger?

It (the fork switch) is not connected to the matrix , it can be used for the relay

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Use this relay.
ebay.com link » Dc 12v 30a Multifunction Adjustable Delay Timer Relay On Off Module High Power

Cool!
I wanna get this right...
So I’m going to give it 12v power from the pinball machines power supply

Connect the fork switch to the trigger signer (how do I give this voltage if it calls for 3-15v? 5v from power supply?)

Where does ?
COM
NO
NC

My guess..
Com- 25v line from another coil? And to vuk coil banded side of diode
NO- To vuk coil (non banded side)
NC- Nothing

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

So I’m going to give it 12v power from the pinball machines power supply

Yes, grab this from the grey/yellow wire at the drop targets.

Quoted from Chosen_S:

Connect the fork switch to the trigger signer (how do I give this voltage if it calls for 3-15v? 5v from power supply?)

Use the 12 volts from the drop targets too.

Quoted from Chosen_S:

Com- 25v line from another coil?

No, the voltage goes to the vuk coil first, then the non banded diode side goes to the COM terminal of the relay.
You can use the 50 volt line at the drop target coil if you need it to be powerful, or 25 volts from a different coil. I would test the coil first on 25 volts to see if it's consistent, if not jump to the 50 volts.

Quoted from Chosen_S:

NO- To vuk coil (non banded side)

No the NO terminal will be the ground for the coil, you can pick this up from the drop target boards black/grey wire.

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#13 1 year ago

This maybe better. As you can see I"m not good at my paint program.

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#14 1 year ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

This maybe better. As you can see I"m not good at my paint program. [quoted image]

It’s a fine work of art! Let no man say differently.

Thank you, you just made my day

#15 1 year ago

Let us know how it works out.

Playball!

#16 1 year ago

Why not have soren add in code for the VUK?

He rewrote a lot of the code already so he's going to be intimately familiar with it.

Does the vuk use some existing switch that in the final game is used in a different way? That would be the easiest way to change the code, tag it onto that switch routine.... or if anyone has the proto code the routine can be moved from one software base to another.

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Let us know how it works out.
Playball!

I will, the relay is in China, tick tock

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

Why not have soren add in code for the VUK?
He rewrote a lot of the code already so he's going to be intimately familiar with it.
Does the vuk use some existing switch that in the final game is used in a different way? That would be the easiest way to change the code, tag it onto that switch routine.... or if anyone has the proto code the routine can be moved from one software base to another.

I’ve messaged him a few times over the last few weeks, he has not responded

#19 1 year ago

I messaged @soren about adding support for solenoid 03A (Ball Popper) and 15 (sling kicker) and didn't hear back. I asked a similar question in the Radical Club thread about adding his mods to the proto rom and he said no.

Here's what I see with the proto roms.

When the fork switch is closed
1) run the Snake Run Bonus award sequence
2) fire 2 flash lamps. (The ones on either side of the crossover ramp diverter)
3) fire solenoid 03A (the ball should land on and stay on the plastic ramp)

I had to reduce the coil strength in order to keep the ball from bouncing off the ramp most of the time.

#20 1 year ago

I'm not familiar at all with the nuances of Radical since I haven't played one since it came out.... is there an equivalence between the proto and the production run in terms of the switch that triggers all that?

I don't think taking the new rules if that's what you want and adding the new rules to the proto roms would be the way to go and I can see why Soren wasn't interested in doing that (it's like taking an entirely new rom and duplicating everything added to the other) - but adding in the proto stuff TO the new rom (or just taking the newer stock rom) seems like the way to go.

#21 1 year ago

I think adding in the code to the new rules would be the way to go. But knowing how small the rims are, he may have tapped out the space and there may not be room for the prototype code for the switch

I’ll just add in the relay and enjoy

Unless Soren decides to put the time and energy in

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

I’ll just add in the relay and enjoy

How are you going to do the flash lamps? You may need 2 relays.

#23 1 year ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

How are you going to do the flash lamps? You may need 2 relays.

Hadn’t thought about it honestly. I didn’t know till now that I needed to think about that , I’ll order another and yeeeaaaaaah. Still gonna take weeks to get here

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:I'm not familiar at all with the nuances of Radical since I haven't played one since it came out.... is there an equivalence between the proto and the production run in terms of the switch that triggers all that?
I don't think taking the new rules if that's what you want and adding the new rules to the proto roms would be the way to go and I can see why Soren wasn't interested in doing that (it's like taking an entirely new rom and duplicating everything added to the other) - but adding in the proto stuff TO the new rom (or just taking the newer stock rom) seems like the way to go.

It is the same switch (in the matrix), 16, that starts the sequence. The physical switch is different and the software must treat it differently.

I presented the question from both directions just to see if I could start a dialog. He's probably limited by the lack of a prototype game to test on. And then there's the issue of the tiny target audience, unless it's configurable. I'd be interested in understanding how he creates his mods. Does he have source? What's the build environment, etc.

Does anybody know Dan Lee?

#25 1 year ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

Hadn’t thought about it honestly. I didn’t know till now that I needed to think about that , I’ll order another and yeeeaaaaaah. Still gonna take weeks to get here

You wouldn't need a delay relay for the flash lamps. Popper fork switch could activate first relay and light flash bulbs, it can also trigger the second relay and start the delay. Then the second relay will activate the ball popper coil.

#26 1 year ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

I think adding in the code to the new rules would be the way to go. But knowing how small the rims are, he may have tapped out the space and there may not be room for the prototype code for the switch

There's a TON of room in the L1 radical roms. Large swaths of unused areas.

Quoted from tdddddd:

It is the same switch (in the matrix), 16, that starts the sequence. The physical switch is different and the software must treat it differently.
I presented the question from both directions just to see if I could start a dialog. He's probably limited by the lack of a prototype game to test on. And then there's the issue of the tiny target audience, unless it's configurable. I'd be interested in understanding how he creates his mods. Does he have source? What's the build environment, etc.

How would the software have to treat it differently? I know there's going to be a pause on a vuk vs. not.... is that it? I see there's also an extra slingshot on the prototype - do those switches do anything on the non-proto (are there even switches there?) Is that the only different, the vuk is switch 16.... what does the regular switch 16 do just go around the upper loop?

The vuk puts it up onto the top ramp is all? Is it always accessible like Earthshaker's is?

Any source is re-created.... there's a ton of 68xx cross assemblers available for the PC, so it's no big deal to assemble. The rub with custom roms is always the beta testing.... as in, is the beta tester going to give good feedback when things don't work right? Does the beta tester even have eproms and a burner? Beta testers in my experience run the gamut of never even telling you if they tried the software, or telling you ANYTHING about how it worked/didn't work, to saying "something went wrong. I don't know when or what the state was. Fix it." to detailed notes and videos on reproducible errors.

The changes to roms can be applied as patches that wedge into the existing software, or can be an entire re-created source code package. It depends on the nature of the change. Patches get messy really quickly if a lot of changes need to be made, but they are a lot quicker to create. Re-creating source code is a relatively large task.... it really depends on the goal.

Not having the game to test can be a big stumbling block, it's very difficult to "play" a game on pinmame to test.

For people who want to see what williams "pinbol" code was in the system 11 era, it's not too far from the system 7 stuff posted here:
http://gamearchive.askey.org/Pinball/Manufacturers/Williams/PinBuilder/text/williams_lvl7_programming.html#compatibility

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

There's a TON of room in the L1 radical roms. Large swaths of unused areas.

How would the software have to treat it differently? I know there's going to be a pause on a vuk vs. not.... is that it? I see there's also an extra slingshot on the prototype - do those switches do anything on the non-proto (are there even switches there?) Is that the only different, the vuk is switch 16.... what does the regular switch 16 do just go around the upper loop?
The vuk puts it up onto the top ramp is all? Is it always accessible like Earthshaker's is?

When I first installed the proto ROMs I was able to get the extra slingshot working using switch 49, which is not used on production models. A sling sound effect is played. However, I was not able to activate the bonus sequence by hitting the spot target used on the production games. IIRC, I had to hold it closed to start the bonus sequence. Once I installed the popper and fork switch it worked fine. Comparing the spot target (momentary) to the fork switch (which remains closed), it seemed that the software must use different routines.

The vuk moves the ball from under the playfield to the ramp. The vuk is served by a ramp under the playfield and a gobble hole allows the ball to reach that ramp. Production models have the spot target (switch 16) mounted forward in the gobble hole, blocking access to the hole. On the protos the hole is open and the switch is a fork switch (using switch 16) mounted to the vuk assembly. The hole (or the spot target on production models) is not always accessible. It is mostly blocked by a 3 bank drop target assembly that resets shortly after all three targets are dropped. Since all that the vuk does is move the ball to the ramp it is not missed much on the production models. It slows the game down because it waits for the bonus sequence to complete before putting the ball back into play.

#28 1 year ago
Quoted from tdddddd:

I was not able to activate the bonus sequence by hitting the spot target used on the production games. IIRC, I had to hold it closed to start the bonus sequence. Once I installed the popper and fork switch it worked fine. Comparing the spot target (momentary) to the fork switch (which remains closed), it seemed that the software must use different routines.

System 7-11 have a switch parameter attached to each switch that determines how long the switch must be continuously active before the game will service it - a standup needs a very short activation time, and a vuk (as well as eject holes, drop targets, and trough switches) need a longer time. It might be as simple as changing the switch timing for switch 16 in the production/soren software to the longer timing needed for the vuk, and then adding the code to the end of the vuk routine to do the light show/eject the ball. If what that standup does is substantially the same, other than the flasher/vuk activation that is the way I'd approach it.

I'd think that the sling in the proto would activate anyway since it's a special solenoid, but I'd say with the newer software it won't score or make a sound effect - that could probably be added back in as well.

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

System 7-11 have a switch parameter attached to each switch that determines how long the switch must be continuously active before the game will service it - a standup needs a very short activation time, and a vuk (as well as eject holes, drop targets, and trough switches) need a longer time. It might be as simple as changing the switch timing for switch 16 in the production/soren software to the longer timing needed for the vuk, and then adding the code to the end of the vuk routine to do the light show/eject the ball. If what that standup does is substantially the same, other than the flasher/vuk activation that is the way I'd approach it.
I'd think that the sling in the proto would activate anyway since it's a special solenoid, but I'd say with the newer software it won't score or make a sound effect - that could probably be added back in as well.

I will add this in for thought, if the 3rd kicker operates at 100%, it will be too much , at this time I have mine hooked to a tip 102 directly and it’s operating at about 20% which is great, any more power and it will be too much action IMO

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

I will add this in for thought

When you figure out exactly what needs to happen and the order it needs occur in let me know, I can help wire it.

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

When you figure out exactly what needs to happen and the order it needs occur in let me know, I can help wire it.

Thanks bud, Before I posted this thread, I thought I would fix this easily. Apparently I’m not that smart. If you don’t mind will you please help me...

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/radical-flashers-locked-on-please-help#post-5463795

7 months later
#32 7 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

When you figure out exactly what needs to happen and the order it needs occur in let me know, I can help wire it.

I finally marched upstairs to work on this machine and get this relay installed, I hooked everything up correctly as per the diagrams.

The 35v from pop bumpers is not powerful enough,

The 50v from the drops doesn’t work. The 50v doesn’t power up until the mpu tells the drop board to supply 50v.

The 80v from the flippers blows a fuse when used.

Is there another power source I can use?

#33 7 months ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

The 50v doesn’t power up until the mpu tells the drop board to supply 50v.

You are correct in that the drop target power goes thru the A/C relay and is only on when the CPU needs to reset the drop target.

Quoted from Chosen_S:

Is there another power source I can use?

Solenoids 13, 14 and special #2 and #4 are also 50 volt coils which are powered on as soon as you hit the power switch.

radical (resized).PNG
#34 7 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

You are correct in that the drop target power goes thru the A/C relay and is only on when the CPU needs to reset the drop target.

Solenoids 13, 14 and special #2 and #4 are also 50 volt coils which are powered on as soon as you hit the power switch.
[quoted image]

Right on, I hooked up to the left sling, I got one vertical kick and the fuse blew.

Swapped in a new fuse and adjusted the Vuk for good measure, tried it out and after 3 games things work so far!

Grumpy, you’re the man! Thank you

5 months later
#35 78 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Yes, grab this from the grey/yellow wire at the drop targets.

Use the 12 volts from the drop targets too.

No, the voltage goes to the vuk coil first, then the non banded diode side goes to the COM terminal of the relay.
You can use the 50 volt line at the drop target coil if you need it to be powerful, or 25 volts from a different coil. I would test the coil first on 25 volts to see if it's consistent, if not jump to the 50 volts.

No the NO terminal will be the ground for the coil, you can pick this up from the drop target boards black/grey wire.[quoted image]

Grumpy, I’m sorry to drag this up to the surface, I’m still having trouble, and could use assistants if you could please.

I’m sad to say that I have not played this machine much since I installed this relay you suggested. It kept blowing a fuse and I kept replacing the fuse. About every three or four games the fuse would blow and the machine got turned off and left alone from frustration.

...

I have everything hooked up as you described...

When the fork Switch is grounded, three seconds later the coil fires, and locks on. I am assuming that this started after a handful of games were played on this machine.

It’s blowing F4 2.5A,
I have an 8A fuse inline with the power line that is not blowing.

0. There’s a diode on the fork switch, band on the negative side of the switch according to the diagram. Should I remove or reverse the diode?

1. Could the relay device be bad?

2. Should I consider installing a 35v or 50v DC power supply to keep strain off of the backbox?

Ps. is your description on this post I quoted correct for the NO and COM terminal? I think it is backwards from your diagram

Thank you

8ABA52CE-3537-4102-A9C2-D1CACC12020E (resized).jpegA313D999-B3C8-46C2-B4F4-435658D9EFEF (resized).jpeg

8EB3D5BC-9018-438B-9C3B-F8E39AA005BF (resized).jpeg

#36 78 days ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

When the fork Switch is grounded, three seconds later the coil fires, and locks on.

Is the coil locking on even after the fork switch is opened?

#37 78 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Is the coil locking on even after the fork switch is opened?

Yes

#38 78 days ago

Once the fork is open the relay should open, since it's not I think the relay board is acting up and needs to be replaced.

Also the fork switch doesn't need to have the diode, remove it and put the wires on the switch terminals that have the contacts.

Now the bigger question, why did the relay go bad? Coincidence or is there a emi pulse from the coil back feeding into the relay board? So I think you should add a diode to block this emi pulse. If you add the diode on the ground wire like the pic below.

aaa (resized).jpg
#39 78 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Once the fork is open the relay should open, since it's not I think the relay board is acting up and needs to be replaced.
Also the fork switch doesn't need to have the diode, remove it and put the wires on the switch terminals that have the contacts.
Now the bigger question, why did the relay go bad? Coincidence or is there a emi pulse from the coil back feeding into the relay board? So I think you should add a diode to block this emi pulse. If you add the diode on the ground wire like the pic below.
[quoted image]

I think you might be right, I’ll replace and fix diodes and report back, thank you!

2 months later
#40 9 days ago

GRUMPY i promise I’m on this now until we get it running, thank you for your continued help!...
Ok, worked on things today, got the new relay in from China , placed the diode in line as instructed,

pulled the diode from the switch and moved the wire to have a direct connection...

I set the jumpers to 6 seconds delay.

Started a game, put the ball in the subway, the ball landed correctly on the fork switch,

Blew the fuse immediately

We’re sending more than 30v dc through the relay right? 50 to 70 v? Are we blowing the relay because of too high dc voltage load??
5CF10E93-A676-4C83-A462-D1FBE6A66C07 (resized).png
8DCCB25F-B399-4B44-993A-C4FDB8211489 (resized).jpeg4116C3E4-9822-4F3A-92EC-F7DAEDE70497 (resized).jpeg

#41 9 days ago

I’m stumped , I’ve been playing with this relay board to try and understand what’s going on, I think it just couldn’t handle 74v
, it locks on the coil again as soon as the switch is shorted,

I’ve been working on this trying different theories for maybe 6 years on and off, I can’t believe it’s so hard to just fire a coil 5 seconds or so after pushing a fork switch.

I think it’s time to try to fire the coil by another means

TheNoTrashCougar GRUMPY , Do you have any new ideas for me possibly ?

#42 7 days ago

Do you have any lamp sockets like these? If you were to wire 5 of these lamp sockets in series and install flasher bulbs. You could replace the coil wires with the flasher bulbs. Then test the fork switch, do the flasher bulbs briefly light after the 6 second delay or do the flasher bulbs stay on longer then a brief pulse. If the bulbs stay on longer then a flash, that would explain why the fuse burns.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#43 7 days ago

Also did you read the note on the bottom? Do you need to try it the other way?

mmm (resized).PNG
#44 7 days ago

That relay can handle 240V. The coil to energize the relay takes max 24v. I have not completely read all of the diagrams you created, so I will look back through them. Using a relay is the EM approach to solving this design. I am not saying it won’t work, but it’s an old school approach.

I would also be concerned using the 12V switch matrix power to drive a relay. I don’t believe the circuit is designed to provide enough amps to trigger a coil in a relay.

Am I understanding your design theory correctly?

#45 6 days ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Do you have any lamp sockets like these? If you were to wire 5 of these lamp sockets in series and install flasher bulbs. You could replace the coil wires with the flasher bulbs. Then test the fork switch, do the flasher bulbs briefly light after the 6 second delay or do the flasher bulbs stay on longer then a brief pulse. If the bulbs stay on longer then a flash, that would explain why the fuse burns.
[quoted image][quoted image]

<-Great idea here

Grumpy am I reading this correctly though?...

This instruction is Chinese translated to English
... this reads as if this may not be the relay board we need to use, let’s say I desire a 1 second delay, these instructions say that option 1: trigger the switch, then for 1 second the relay will be energized.

Option 2: the relay is energized , press switch, the relay turns off for 1 second, then turns back on

Unfortunately neither of these options will work for the situation if this is the case.

Alexanr1

Desire: ball falls on to VUK fork switch, rests long enough 1: for ball to rest comfortably in the Vuk (as to not hit switch prematurely so coil ignites and ball fumbles around inside vuk space not ejecting thru wire form) 2: radical needs time to award million score ((actual about 5 seconds) not completely necessary, but creates anticipation, and gives player relief)
12B30E0B-1934-4BBA-A71C-446B40873A38 (resized).png

#46 6 days ago
Quoted from alexanr1:

That relay can handle 240V. The coil to energize the relay takes max 24v. I have not completely read all of the diagrams you created, so I will look back through them. Using a relay is the EM approach to solving this design. I am not saying it won’t work, but it’s an old school approach.
I would also be concerned using the 12V switch matrix power to drive a relay. I don’t believe the circuit is designed to provide enough amps to trigger a coil in a relay.
Am I understanding your design theory correctly?

The relay used currently can handle 240v AC, 30v DC, we need a minimum of 50v DC, the currently connected line is 73vDC coming from the left sling shot.

#47 6 days ago

A friend of mine has the idea to connect an extra switch to a flipper switch, wire it in series with the vuK fork switch,

Once the ball connects the vuk , and the flipper switch connects and creates a closed circuit, fire the 50+vDC to the vuk coil,(as long as the player isn’t holding the flipper button at the same moment the ball falls on to the vuk, there should be a successful fire and eject) may just need to build a circuit with a pre-driver transistor, and a driver transistor.

... is this a good idea?

#48 6 days ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

Thank you, I shot a message out

Do those snubbed boards handle 75v ? I’ll start investigating in the mean time

What did HEP say? If you have the mechanical side of it figured out, isn't it as easy as duplicating what he has done?

#49 6 days ago
Quoted from yellowghost:

What did HEP say? If you have the mechanical side of it figured out, isn't it as easy as duplicating what he has done?

He used the prototype ROMs, The million scoring is random on the prototype Roms, if you play a two player game, player one may be awarded 2 million points, player 2 may be awarded 9 million points in the same game. I’m trying to avoid that situation.

#50 6 days ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

He used the prototype ROMs, The million scoring is random on the prototype Roms, if you play a two player game, player one may be awarded 2 million points, player 2 may be awarded 9 million points in the same game. I’m trying to avoid that situation.

The way mine is configured, once the drop targets are knocked down , then red stand up awards a prize. I assume you reinstalled the wires from the standup to a rollover type switch in the ramp under the playfield to award the prize?

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